South Africa C4 user Posted June 23, 2019 Share Posted June 23, 2019 9 hours ago, blub said: 23 hours ago, South Africa C4 user said: I’m not convinced that the sale implies the model failed... They sold it for a pretty penny, many would see that as success, not failure! OK, then please give some good reasons why they sold and had such a hard time to find a buyer. 1. Why they sold - Money. 2. Why it took time - They wanted lots of money and they are a specialized outfit... Just my 2 cents... there could be hundreds of millions of other reasons... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggzlot Posted June 23, 2019 Share Posted June 23, 2019 Usually when a P/E firm comes in and buys something at a premium (40% over trading price) , it is seen as a financial “win” for the company being purchased, not a bail out. It is a niche market. Shareholders do not want to see a niche market with a slow and steady climb. It went public/private for investors to make money. If you know the market you’ll see that process. Has nothing to do with dealer markets vs DIY vs anything else. That is ancillary noise you want to add to the conversation but its not related. There is no direct correlation. C4 couldn’t keep shareholders happy; that does not mean their model is flawed. Not necessarily a direct correlation. chopedogg88 and msgreenf 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chopedogg88 Posted June 23, 2019 Share Posted June 23, 2019 correctomundo! I happen to be one of those C4 shareholders who purchased at IPO - I'm happy...just wish I had bought more shares! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blub Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 correctomundo! I happen to be one of those C4 shareholders who purchased at IPO - I'm happy...just wish I had bought more shares!You could have sold over 30$. Last year... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blub Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 Usually when a P/E firm comes in and buys something at a premium (40% over trading price) , it is seen as a financial “win” for the company being purchased, not a bail out. It is a niche market. Shareholders do not want to see a niche market with a slow and steady climb. It went public/private for investors to make money. If you know the market you’ll see that process. Has nothing to do with dealer markets vs DIY vs anything else. That is ancillary noise you want to add to the conversation but its not related. There is no direct correlation. C4 couldn’t keep shareholders happy; that does not mean their model is flawed. Not necessarily a direct correlation. I didn't mean it was a bailout. The financials were way too good for that. The 40% Premium is nothing compared to the SP being over 30$ for quite a while in 2018 and 2017 - so actually they sold it quite cheap and screwed retail investors (no, I don't own or had owned CTRL) If the company is doing great - Home automation is still in the beginning and the market is growing - and you want to cash in you don't sell at 24 when SP was 30+. Additionally leaders in a market segment, especially if that segment is still growing, don't put themselves up for sale..... that's kinda rare....In such a position, in case you wann sell, you wait out the China mess, which was one of the reasons for the lowered guidance in the q3 ER call when I am not mistaken, and sell at a higher price later on. For some reason they really wanted to sell and I can't come up with another explanation than that they didn't believe in their product anymore - SnapAV took the chance after the SP droped and baught it on the cheap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggzlot Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 2 hours ago, chopedogg88 said: correctomundo! I happen to be one of those C4 shareholders who purchased at IPO - I'm happy...just wish I had bought more shares! Forget buying more at IPO. The steal was buying when it was in the $5-$6 range 3 minutes ago, blub said: I didn't mean it was a bailout. The financials were way too good for that. The 40% Premium is nothing compared to the SP being over 30$ for quite a while in 2018 and 2017 - so actually they sold it quite cheap and screwed retail investors (no, I don't own or had owned CTRL) As referenced above it was also trading well under $10 for a while too. And it spiked to over $30 when Google purchased Nest and rumors were crazy. Welcome to the stock market. Welcome to being a retail investor - C4 or other stocks. Shareholders saw a way to make a profit and not deal with the Wall Street headache, period. It is called an exit strategy. They took a company public and sold it at a profit a few years later. That is usually celebrated. You as a C4 user/customer and/or a C4 stock holder may not be happy, that’s fair. But its a game to make money, and they made money. Maybe they see what is coming up - the mess with China, the stall in the housing market and they just figured it is a good time to cash in before its a blood bath. Risk vs Reward - part of basic economics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knowitall Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 On 6/21/2019 at 5:30 PM, South Africa C4 user said: I often agree with you... but not this time. I think Control4 offers a lot more than lighting and audio... I use it for a whole host of other things and have no desire to change... They absolutely do, but, those other things aren’t really putting $$$$ into Control4 pocket. Maybe I should have been more clear in my post. I was simply talking about hardware they sell. They’re definitely not a software company, I’m sure 4sight is some nice RMR, but they are a manufacturer, and have purchased other hard good companies. They need to sell that stuff to make money, and it’s not like once someone makes that initial investment, they’re upgrading regularly or adding zones of audio, etc. not saying doesn’t happen but rare. Like i said, I bought a HC250-1 when it came out (first company I worked for gave me a 200 and 150 when I complete training) and about 15 lights when I moved. Handful of other peripherals off eBay and I’ve been running strong 5 years and see no reason to upgrade until my 250 kicks it, at which point I’ll probably just get another 250 off eBay! I’m C4’s worst customer, set it and forget it Ultimately, they need more customers, and it seems the interest in general, seems to be slowing a bit, in my opinion. something else that is probably still rampant is the lack of information some dealers provide the end user. I have taken over so many jobs and added simple programming and just blew people away. Then come the questions. Can it do this/can it do that, then came some up sells, but not necessarily C4 gear. anywho, goodnight blub and South Africa C4 user 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffrey Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 My view - there aren't enough 1 percenters out there to sustain and grow an R&D electronics hardware company especially when these 1 percenters demand the latest and greatest all the time. There just isn't enough money in the pot to come up with everything they want. Only choice will be to open it up to more customers. blub 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blub Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 My view - there aren't enough 1 percenters out there to sustain and grow an R&D electronics hardware company especially when these 1 percenters demand the latest and greatest all the time. There just isn't enough money in the pot to come up with everything they want. Only choice will be to open it up to more customers. Exactly what I am thinking plus more revenue in not hardware based sales.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffrey Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 3 minutes ago, blub said: 2 hours ago, Jeffrey said: My view - there aren't enough 1 percenters out there to sustain and grow an R&D electronics hardware company especially when these 1 percenters demand the latest and greatest all the time. There just isn't enough money in the pot to come up with everything they want. Only choice will be to open it up to more customers. Exactly what I am thinking plus more revenue in not hardware based sales.. Maybe some type of base yearly subscription that will give customers a specified number of programming hours/upgrades/tweaks/whatever from the dealer. Could be tiered depending on how often people like to tweak their system. Trying to keep everyone happy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggzlot Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 1 hour ago, Jeffrey said: Maybe some type of base yearly subscription that will give customers a specified number of programming hours/upgrades/tweaks/whatever from the dealer. Could be tiered depending on how often people like to tweak their system. Trying to keep everyone happy... some dealers offer this model already. Pay $$$/month and you get free OS upgrades, a set amount of hourly support/programming, etc. This is up to the dealer decide how to run their business. It is called RMR - recurring monthly revenue. It has been huge in the alarm business for years and is getting ported over to networking/automation support businesses too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgreenf Posted June 26, 2019 Author Share Posted June 26, 2019 Anyone who wants monthly support. I'll provide contractSent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk South Africa C4 user 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdepaola Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 On 6/21/2019 at 6:22 PM, Dunamivora said: lol, now this is too much. Betting on the Pro market dying is like thinking computer repair shops would go out of business. And yet there are Apple Stores everywhere where everyone goes to get their devices fixed when they fail... DIY is a fad and will become a dead art just like people fixing furniture and appliances they purchase. Most people specialize and pay specialists when they want something done. Or it gets legislated, like certified electricians and a fine for doing it yourself. Calling an Apple store a "compute repair shop" isn't really accurate. They are retail locations that also do repairs as a means of getting you to come in and buy more stuff. Show me a windows based computer repair store, don't quote GeekSquad... They are few and far between, most are mom and pop shops and most don't make it more then several years. There are a TON of people who fix their own furniture and appliances, to the tune of millions. I've repairs my oven main circuit board, my washer and dryer on several occasions, as well as replaced capacitors in my TV and central AC unit. I have saved thousands of dollars at this point by doing these easy repairs. Fixing a washer/dryer isn't rocket science and there are lots of resources to help you do so as well as get you parts. People have been working on their own vehicles since they were first made... Yes some folks hire this work out, many do not because they can't afford to do so, others don't because they enjoy it. In the residential AV / integration world "Pro" does not mean you know what your doing or that you are knowledgeable. You are just someone who opened a business, thats it. I live in a very saturated and large market, the vast majority of "Pro" residential AV / integrator I've meet or personally know aren't exactly the folks I would want designing or working on my stuff. The PRO residential segment is not as refined or educated as the real PRO AV market where the majority of folks have technical degrees in engineering, electronics, computers, etc. Just to clarify, I do believe there are excellent professionals out there who do know the art of their business. Do I believe its the majority, nope at least not in my experience. YMMV C4junkie, blub and therockhr 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdepaola Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 4 hours ago, Jeffrey said: Maybe some type of base yearly subscription that will give customers a specified number of programming hours/upgrades/tweaks/whatever from the dealer. Could be tiered depending on how often people like to tweak their system. Trying to keep everyone happy... Many, and I'll go as far as to say most, Control4 dealers don't care about service after the install... Their focus is on installs, plain and simple... I would love to open up a new business doing just Control4 service and programming to consumers or as a contractor for these dealers that simply don't have the staff to do installs and service... Could make a fortune... C4junkie 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 4 minutes ago, cdepaola said: Calling an Apple store a "compute repair shop" isn't really accurate. Indeed, most can't repair anything at all. But I guess that wasn't your point. cdepaola 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g8rfn2 Posted June 26, 2019 Share Posted June 26, 2019 Man, I just got caught up on this monster... Have to say, there are some great points (from both perspectives) if perhaps over-dramatized a bit. But, I really think knowitall and blub made some points worth repeating. On 6/20/2019 at 10:05 PM, knowitall said: A lot of good points in this thread. C4 tried to take over the “highend” residential market, which is a small percentage of the world. (See selling to people in limos comment) Programming a C4 system used to be an art form they dumbed it down just enough but not enough to be DIY, which is the biggest issue imo- way too many “dealers” that don’t have the skill or care to do it right Video distribution is dead. People were not as savvy, now people want to DIY. So Control4 has two things left lighting and audio, and whole house audio is a hard sell these days why spend all that $$$$ when you can get a $50 streaming box? Costs much more than that to prewire a zone and put up some brackets lighting is left. But I bought 15 lighting devices in 2014, don’t need anymore. So I am a customer but not a recurring one. Long story short, their business model is setup for failure, and its failing due to the dealers who are not selling the solution properly, doing a half-assed job at install, and leaving clients hung out to dry when support is needed. IoT and DIY are the future The statement above is *mostly* the cold harsh truth, except for one glaring omission to choppedogg88's point later in the thread... They still own the best PRODUCT for merging everything together into one user friendly system. So, while the "business" is currently running away from them. The PRODUCT needs to be better marketed and flipped to at least some level of more mass-market adoption in order for any company in the space to succeed. I have had my system for about 3 years now... My friends and family are constantly blown away with the features it offers, simplicity, etc. But, in 3 whole years (and we have a LOT of company), not a single person we have ever had in our home has heard of Control4 or even knows what it is. That is a MASSIVE problem. I don't necessarily agree that IoT and DIY are exclusively the future, because i think the unique combo of hardware and software is what makes the system more stable than others. But, the efforts on marketing need to be quadrupled at a minimum. We can argue all day long about whether the dealer model will continue to exist or not, but both sides are speculating. The truth is... there is (and will continue to be) a need for both. The dealers will always have a small market of people that either a. don't want to deal with any of the headaches and just want stuff to work 24/7 or b. Have more money than they know what to do with and just want the latest and greatest anything. Neither of those are going away. But, as a dealer, if you don't want the market to expand to the other 98% who are literally clamoring for better solutions across all their devices, I simply dont know what to tell ya? But, i do know... if you continue to wait and try to force the old model, eventually you will become Blockbuster and the big boys will squash you like a bug once their products catch up and pass you. I went through 3 different local companies before finding this forum (and thereby un-earthing the beauty of the remote dealer). I can't believe that is a coincidence? The service SUCKS out in the local markets. And, the profits and revenue show it. Simple as that. Of course, none of you guys on here emulate that... Because, clearly you care about the end product and the service to customers. That's why you're here is to further service the community. And, we truly do appreciate it. So, what's the answer? How do I fix it if I am Snap? On 6/18/2019 at 5:44 PM, blub said: Since growth wasn't good it most likely can only be achieved by lowering entry cost and addressing DIY. Sell ea3's for 300 to 500, eat for 1200 to 1500 and make the whole ecosystem based on subscriptions and price it by project size. To keep the dealer happy they could get a cut of the subscription based on zip codes or whatever.... C4s argument for being dealer based was that this ensures high quality. Going hardware less, like with an app will likely compromise the stability of the system. I think the Control4 controller in conjunction with the software is the main reason for the solid platform - going to be an IoT system certainly isn't what Control4 wants and should be. I doubt that a separation between DIY system software and dealer software makes sense. Anyone who has been with Control4 in the 1st days knows that setting up a small to mid-size system with a TV, AVR, contacts and lights is a no brainer for anyone who has grown up with software and hardware - the more complex it gets the more a knowledgeable dealer pays off. So devices could be grouped in categories of DIY or dealer installable or it could depend on the project size My 2cents Yes, lower prices on hardware, but sustain it with subscription tiers. Basic systems have basic hardware and free software. And, it goes up from there. Cut dealers in on the subscription tiers. Bonuses if x% of your customer base are level 3, for example. Same thing for consumer access. Different tiers have different levels of access. But, the BIGGER idea (i think) is two-fold. 1. Embrace the model you guys have basically built on here! I guarantee that every dealer would rather work out of their home remotely if they could sustain enough business doing it? The only way that happens is to increase customer volume with better (more attractive) pricing. Those local companies i mentioned wouldn't even show up for less than 150 bucks. Then, each request was + + +. I was lucky to get out of just about anything without it being 300 or more. There should be an ARMY of remote dealers on Control4.com right now. But instead, it's an antiquated 1994 system of locating a local guy and leaving a voicemail, hoping he even calls you back. It's the complete opposite of what a "technology" company should be. If everyone is compensated to get MORE users instead of worrying about stealing ones from other dealers... everyone wins. 2. Focus less on the hardware side and MORE on this notion of being the "glue" that binds everyone together. Google is pissing on Amazon, who is pissing on Apple. Sonos is just off on their own little planet. Etc. etc. Consumers don't give a DAMN about the politics and revenue implications, they just want their stuff to work with other devices as well as humanly possible. C4 does that REALLY well, but back to my point earlier... nobody knows who the eff they are? Focus on being THE solution, and make it your #1 priority. Bottom line, none of us know the answer as to what's planned. But, I can promise you NOBODY buys another company (especially a fledgling one) to just do "more of the same." Frankly, I'm shocked that notion has been repeatedly mentioned in this thread. You guys are much smarter than that! I spent the last 17 years in the video game industry... Imagine how hard it was to convince publishing executives to give away games on mobile devices for free. But, it was a very similar migration of thought. Sure, for every candy crush there are 600 failures, but C4 is a winner if they put the right pieces in place, and make the right chess moves. Whatever it is... I hope Snap will move QUICKLY to clearly define and roll out a 1, 3, and 5 year plan. If they don't, sadly the bleeding will just continue. Sorry for the long-winded rant. But, I'm passionate about the topic. Gary Leeds UK and C4junkie 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blub Posted June 27, 2019 Share Posted June 27, 2019 Indeed, most can't repair anything at all. But I guess that wasn't your point. Yeah, just as Luis Rossman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgreenf Posted June 27, 2019 Author Share Posted June 27, 2019 Ok wapSent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Francis Posted July 5, 2019 Share Posted July 5, 2019 On 6/18/2019 at 10:44 PM, blub said: Since growth wasn't good it most likely can only be achieved by lowering entry cost and addressing DIY. Sell ea3's for 300 to 500, eat for 1200 to 1500 and make the whole ecosystem based on subscriptions and price it by project size. To keep the dealer happy they could get a cut of the subscription based on zip codes or whatever.... C4s argument for being dealer based was that this ensures high quality. Going hardware less, like with an app will likely compromise the stability of the system. I think the Control4 controller in conjunction with the software is the main reason for the solid platform - going to be an IoT system certainly isn't what Control4 wants and should be. I doubt that a separation between DIY system software and dealer software makes sense. Anyone who has been with Control4 in the 1st days knows that setting up a small to mid-size system with a TV, AVR, contacts and lights is a no brainer for anyone who has grown up with software and hardware - the more complex it gets the more a knowledgeable dealer pays off. So devices could be grouped in categories of DIY or dealer installable or it could depend on the project size My 2cents I agree. The DIY market will continue to grow, but the way I see it, the actual controller or 'intelligence' will be some sort of cloud service, so a SAAS type approach to avoid the cost of hardware, but will have a recurring cost. Essentially what a NEST CAM is in comparison to a self-managed NVR; both have pros and cons, and I think common sense dictates which platform works best for which customer. Obviously SAAS approaches have implications relating to recurring costs that are not fixed, security and ownership of the system. In my opinion few dealers actually 'do' automation or fully integrated control. Control4 and other systems are deployed in a manner that is akin to what Harmony and a voice could achieve for a little less money on the 'single room' basis. The typical 'resi' installation is all about zoned AV control, maybe lights, maybe climate controls. There is little in the way of actual real automation programming being done by the large majority of installers, regardless of the control platform. Ultimately this erodes the value of the industry as a whole, or at least the perceived value of it. Comparatively speaking Control4 is NOT expensive: ELAN, Savant and Crestron are all more expensive. As nice as Savant is, it uses fairly agressive tactics to encourage dealers to use their products, or rather, to punish them if they don't - as an added bonus, vendor support is nowhere near as big as C4; NEST being one of many examples one could cite. I can also reveal that 50% of the people who are becoming Savant dealers are electricians and similar, thus this will erode things further - because AV installers used to have a genuine passion for all things AV, including audio quality. We all know where Crestron falls in this - go an buy a $50 Roku device for your Crestron managed system, and you'll get a $800 bill to have it installed. ELAN is nice, but just not as well supported by vendors for drivers, and the hardware costs are well above C4, and further the product range is not as complete, and therefore relies on relatuvely pricey 3rd party products such as those by Global Cache. I have used RTI and URC too, and cost wise, Control4 certainly isn't more expensive on modestly sized projects. Without doubt the DIY market will continue to grow, and within that Control4 has a place in it - and it is something that will work within that market rather than being a purely binary option option. The best way to look at this is not for it to be reduced to a simple 'either or' approach, it can be more of case of 'this AND that' if there is a genuine value proposition for the end user to use a combination of technologies. Arguing which is better, DIY or Control4, is akin to the facile debate of whether HDBT is better or worse than AVoIP - both technologies have their place, both have their strengths and weaknesses, but there are cases where the best design solution is to use a combination of the two, rather than one or the other. Ultimately the lower to middle income Generation X'ers and Millenials are tech savvy, and most will shop around and most will try and do it themselves, no matter how attractive the hardware cost of any of the big automation brands - because ultimately, and I am one of them, we believe it is something we are capable of doing on our own. The actual value behind custom install is not solely the technical specifications of a product, or its brand perception, but the abilities of the installer; the real question is whether the the end-user believes there is any value in paying for these skills. I can tell you that in the main that the average user does not appreciate the value of a custom installer, and thus will either go the DIY route, or will select a dealer who can do it at the cheapest price - a bit like getting that new bathroom fitted. Ergo the DIY market grows. There is a place for the automation/integrated controls installer, but I think it is isn't wise to focus your attention on that end of the market too much, it is a battle you ultimately won't win unless you can commodotise it; the value a dealer is meant to offers is a service in the form of design, consultation and programming, rather than a product bundle - and in the main, the average consumer doesn't actually get that, we are too used going onto Amazon, buying a piece of tech, and installing it DIY, be it a printer, or a TV, or Hue light bulb. LollerAgent, chopedogg88 and Rexabyte 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-defunct- Posted July 5, 2019 Share Posted July 5, 2019 That's an interesting thought Timothy, but as we saw with the recent massive data breach (2 billion...), cloud based automation will not be the future. Not to mention you have to have functional internet. It just isn't robust and anything cloud based is an inherent security risk as well as no guarantee it will function and continue functioning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-defunct- Posted July 5, 2019 Share Posted July 5, 2019 I know many of you think that DIY will be taking off, but I'd argue you need to look past your ecosystem to the general population. Aside from the maybe 1-10% of DIY capable people in the population, the rest will end up needing a pro to get it right. For advanced automation, it's better to focus on the larger portion of the market than the smaller or make it so simple that a large part of the market can do it. C4 definitely isn't so simple that any person can do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Leeds UK Posted July 5, 2019 Share Posted July 5, 2019 5 hours ago, Dunamivora said: That's an interesting thought Timothy, but as we saw with the recent massive data breach (2 billion...), cloud based automation will not be the future. Not to mention you have to have functional internet. It just isn't robust and anything cloud based is an inherent security risk as well as no guarantee it will function and continue functioning. Control4 already use cloud base tech and were looking at increasing it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therockhr Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 On 7/5/2019 at 7:21 AM, Dunamivora said: That's an interesting thought Timothy, but as we saw with the recent massive data breach (2 billion...), cloud based automation will not be the future. Not to mention you have to have functional internet. It just isn't robust and anything cloud based is an inherent security risk as well as no guarantee it will function and continue functioning. True; cloud based automation is not the future, it’s the present, for better or worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blub Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 Cload based is OK if it has basic working parts that work when the system is offline.If it's broken when offline I am certainly not going to buy it.... Just too many issues if anything network related brakes down Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffrey Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 Will Snap have the resources to finally get Siri integration? My wife just rolls her eyes when I say it's coming. For the past three years... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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