New to C4 - Home Theater / House Setup

[jderks]

The wife wanted to reorganize the living room, and that meant putting the TV on the wall above the fireplace. At the same time we're getting a surround sound system installed, new 4k BD player, et al. While we were at the store the salesman showed us the C4 system, and I said: "Yes, that's a necessity." especially since my dad is kind of technology impaired, and couldn't figure out how to watch the game on our current setup when they came over to watch the pets / house. However, since we're going to be putting the home theater on the C4 EA3, I was curious if anyone would know how to integrate other items and best practices before I bring them up with the local installer:

1. Electric Shades (2-4), preferably wired to house power
   1. These would be by the TV / Dining room
      1. Dining room would be 2 "small" width windows
2. Electric shade (1), battery powered
   1. Over the front door window
3. Motorized horizontal blind (1), preferably wired to house power
   1. This would be for the sliding glass door to the backyard
4. Gas Fireplace
   1. This is currently a low-voltage switch
   2. Basically close the circuit, the fireplace turns on
5. Garage Door (2, non-smart )
   1. Liftmaster
6. Wired Electronic locks (3)
   1. Powered through the hinge?
   2. Don't want to use a badge reader, just the ability to remotely lock/unlock the door
      1. Kids leave everything unlocked *rolleyes*
7. Sliding glass door lock
   1. See above electronic lock
8. PoE security cameras for outdoor use
   1. We live where it can hit the "hard 40"
      1. Not very often, but it can happen

I currently have a Cisco 2960S 48 port capable of PoE+ (740W) as my main switch, and the living room HT switch will be a 2960L 16 port able to handle PoE (120W) if that helps power some of these items. I also have a Cisco WAP581 wireless AP. The house is fairly wired, but I can easily add more as we haven't finished the basement yet, so completely open.

We would prefer to avoid interior cameras and/or microphones, as my wife and I are not fans of inviting smart microphones that communicate with (Amazon / Google / Apple) since these companies seem to think that recording almost everything for third-party contractors to go over is peachy. I also would like it if the cameras could integrate with my Synology SAN for storage so I don't have to rely on an outside provider for storage.

[ILoveC4]

What in the world is the "hard 40"?

[jderks]

43 minutes ago, ILoveC4 said:

What in the world is the "hard 40"?

That's one place where the temperature scales (Centigrade and Fahrenheit) meet. While it doesn't happen terribly often, when it does happen it's pretty hard on equipment in the elements.

[ILoveC4]

8 hours ago, jderks said:

That's one place where the temperature scales (Centigrade and Fahrenheit) meet. While it doesn't happen terribly often, when it does happen it's pretty hard on equipment in the elements.

Interesting. It’s 40° or less here half the year. It’s never created a problem for my stuff. 

[Cyknight]

1 hour ago, ILoveC4 said:

Interesting. It’s 40° or less here half the year. It’s never created a problem for my stuff. 

He means -40

[Cyknight]

1, 2 and 3 - no problem really. Lots of options, there's plenty of threads on blinds, so search for those (instead of repeating all that here)

Most common options:

-Hunter Douglas (new Powerview is OK, not great)

-Lutron (great, reliable but pricey - a true premium product))

-QMotion (integrate well, current lineup sems reliable, but relatively expensive for the quality)

-Anything controlled by Somfy RTS motors (lots of options, this is about the motors - several integration options, middle class option with lots of choices out there.

 

Note that CONTROL over these is usually wireless, but the blinds themselves can be powered line level

 

4 if possible wire a line from fireplace to a controller, wireless options are available and reliable. Any dealer worth the title should be able to do this (barring specific fireplace issues)

 

5 Easy unless MyQ  - in which case it's slightly less easy. Again, search the forums for MyQ if that is what you have, if it's not MyQ...this is a no brainer for any dealer

 

6 this one gets though, it's MUCH easier to do wireless. Reliable and battery life is a year or more in most cases. And lots of options to set up alerts before batteries run out (usually standard AA batteries, you can change these yourself easily)

 

More 6 + 7 - if wired is a must, and for glass doors you're generally looking at Mag-Lock style locks. Possible, but it comes with safety, security and possible code issues (manual override requirements) 'm aware a lot of dealers stay away from these because they don't want to burn themselves with something like this. Not completely unjustified. It can be done, but work through this with a dealer

 

8 Commercial grade cams can handle this just fine. Most common options are HikVision, Lilin/Pakedge and Dahua. These climates (same over here) do limit the otherwise rich choices in cameras. Again, a dealer from the region should be able to give you a good option.

On 10/31/2019 at 11:33 AM, jderks said:

I also would like it if the cameras could integrate with my Synology SAN for storage so I don't have to rely on an outside provider for storage.

This isn't impossible, but sometimes it's just easier to use a good old NVR. Local storage, reliable, and easy if you'd prefer this to 'keep to yourself' something you can do yourself (just use the normal PoE switches you have vs the built-in ports to keep C4 integration of the cams optimal)

 

On 10/31/2019 at 11:33 AM, jderks said:

Cisco 2960S

Not ideal. A great product, but it's a managed switch with smart features. These generally need to be dumbed down, and using them is outside scope for many dealers out there.

Certainly usable, but don't be surprised if your first contact dealer states it needs to be replaced. May limit your dealer choices.

On 10/31/2019 at 11:33 AM, jderks said:

WAP581

Meh, but if coverage is fine now, it shouldn't be a problem.

 

 

One thing you didn't note is your router. Please just be aware of two things:

-1) Control4 can be 'picky' on  routers. ISP routers are generally not usable, most consumer grade routers aren't suitable either. With out the right router (and the rest of the networking) a system will NOT perform well. There are still plenty of good options out there (I know I'm repeating myself, but a forum search for routers will get you a good idea).

-2) Plenty of dealers out there will insist on using their own router of choice. Many aren't the world's best network designers, and just want to go with what they know works. While I understand that many here dislike that argument, there is merit to it - as I already mentioned, networking is VERY important, and if a dealer is comfortable with a product that does a good job...I can't really blame them for sticking to it. Adding unknown variables to a system when viable well known (and well supported) options exist is not ideal - there's always plenty of variables to deal with already (in your case, existing network switches, several more advanced requests, existing wiring...)

[jderks]

On 11/5/2019 at 12:26 AM, Cyknight said:

1, 2 and 3 - no problem really. Lots of options, there's plenty of threads on blinds, so search for those (instead of repeating all that here)

Note that CONTROL over these is usually wireless, but the blinds themselves can be powered line level

 

Thank you for the suggestions. I don't really care if the control is wired, I just don't want to be replacing / charging batteries all the time for the "fixed" window blinds. The door one I get, but maybe I could power them off the electric door lock. However even if that one is battery powered, it's one battery versus a bunch.

 

On 11/5/2019 at 12:26 AM, Cyknight said:

4 if possible wire a line from fireplace to a controller, wireless options are available and reliable. Any dealer worth the title should be able to do this (barring specific fireplace issues)

 

Yes my dealer has offered to do this when I have them come back out, and said it should be easy after looking at the fireplace, without replacing the switch.

 

On 11/5/2019 at 12:26 AM, Cyknight said:

5 Easy unless MyQ  - in which case it's slightly less easy. Again, search the forums for MyQ if that is what you have, if it's not MyQ...this is a no brainer for any dealer

 

The dealer concurs and has said this should be easy to automate since the openers are just low enough they don't have the "smart" features built-in already. A tilt sensor and they can program the devices to automatically close at a certain time if they are open as well.

 

On 11/5/2019 at 12:26 AM, Cyknight said:

6 this one gets though, it's MUCH easier to do wireless. Reliable and battery life is a year or more in most cases. And lots of options to set up alerts before batteries run out (usually standard AA batteries, you can change these yourself easily)

 

On 11/5/2019 at 12:26 AM, Cyknight said:

More 6 + 7 - if wired is a must, and for glass doors you're generally looking at Mag-Lock style locks. Possible, but it comes with safety, security and possible code issues (manual override requirements) 'm aware a lot of dealers stay away from these because they don't want to burn themselves with something like this. Not completely unjustified. It can be done, but work through this with a dealer

 

For most people, yes. I just finished an HQ building project and made friends with an electrician who will install the lock/power. He's going to give me a list of powered locks/strikes he's installed and found reliable. After I get that from him, I'll post the list (if necessary) and see if any are compatible. I do have to admit, I have a near pathological hatred of batteries if I can find something wired to do the job. I hate, hate, swapping batteries.

 

On 11/5/2019 at 12:26 AM, Cyknight said:

8 Commercial grade cams can handle this just fine. Most common options are HikVision, Lilin/Pakedge and Dahua. These climates (same over here) do limit the otherwise rich choices in cameras. Again, a dealer from the region should be able to give you a good option.

This isn't impossible, but sometimes it's just easier to use a good old NVR. Local storage, reliable, and easy if you'd prefer this to 'keep to yourself' something you can do yourself (just use the normal PoE switches you have vs the built-in ports to keep C4 integration of the cams optimal)

 

The dedicated NVR is plausible, especially if I can rackmount the unit. I'll see if the dealer has any recommendations here when they are contracted to install the cameras. After talking to the installer, during the HT install, the PakEdge cameras appear to have worked reliably in our local weather. I'm going to have to think over the storage, because I already have the Synology NAS and installing Surveillance Station isn't an issue. However a valid point is made that a dedicated NVR would likely be a simpler solution overall. Plus I could leave that on the IoT VRF and simplify the networking.

Alternatively, my brother-in-law has a Vivint system which apparently can be integrated into C4. My wife thought it was pretty nice, however I don't want wireless cameras, or cameras that I need to run separate power cable to connect. Add in they appear to do the whole cloud storage thing, and I'm just not sure I want the data stored out of my control. 

 

On 11/5/2019 at 12:26 AM, Cyknight said:

Not ideal. A great product, but it's a managed switch with smart features. These generally need to be dumbed down, and using them is outside scope for many dealers out there.

Certainly usable, but don't be surprised if your first contact dealer states it needs to be replaced. May limit your dealer choices.

 

My network now consists of a 2960S in the rack and a pair of 2960L units by the TV's, with one being by the C4-EA3. I have my IoT (including C4) devices on the dedicated IoT VRF. The (likely) PakEdge cameras will also be placed into the IoT VRF. This is (logically) separated from the PC/Storage LAN, with exemptions made by ACL as necessary. There is a hole punched to allow communication to a PC for video files stored on the NAS. Those two VRF's are both completely isolated from the Guest VRF, where all cross-traffic is denied by ACL. Ironically my dealer didn't care so much about my network, but then again I do network engineering for a living and told them I'd take care of the networking. No issues thus far, but everything is internal.

 

On 11/5/2019 at 12:26 AM, Cyknight said:

Meh, but if coverage is fine now, it shouldn't be a problem.

 

Depending on the lighting, I'll probably use wireless since I don't know if I'm comfortable with the cost of installing a dedicated control panel in this house. Were I to build a house, I'd probably have it built-in as part of the process. I'll probably just end up installing another AP in the mesh and turning down the power on both. More due to the way CSMA works and having a few dozen wireless devices asking for permission to talk can lead to interesting experiences, rather than actual bandwidth use.

 

On 11/5/2019 at 12:26 AM, Cyknight said:

 

One thing you didn't note is your router. Please just be aware of two things:

-1) Control4 can be 'picky' on  routers. ISP routers are generally not usable, most consumer grade routers aren't suitable either. With out the right router (and the rest of the networking) a system will NOT perform well. There are still plenty of good options out there (I know I'm repeating myself, but a forum search for routers will get you a good idea).

-2) Plenty of dealers out there will insist on using their own router of choice. Many aren't the world's best network designers, and just want to go with what they know works. While I understand that many here dislike that argument, there is merit to it - as I already mentioned, networking is VERY important, and if a dealer is comfortable with a product that does a good job...I can't really blame them for sticking to it. Adding unknown variables to a system when viable well known (and well supported) options exist is not ideal - there's always plenty of variables to deal with already (in your case, existing network switches, several more advanced requests, existing wiring...)

Yeah, the router is where I'm kind of pooched. The only choice I have is from AT&T (I have AT&T Fiber 1000) and it's a crappy Pace router. I do have an ISR2851 behind it for a couple PC's I use for work, to allow remote access to the corporate network but the rest only use the Pace. I'd really love to ditch that idiotic Pace router (I don't use AT&T video/phone services, just data) and have an Accedian NID installed, or even just a TA/router from them that could do a real bridge mode, and install a Cisco ISR4451. Unfortunately they have thus far been resistant to my request since it is a home circuit, and not a business circuit. I understand the logic, I don't have a business account at home so I can't expect to be treated like a business account. I just wish the Pace did a real bridge mode so I could lobotomize it and use a real router.

--- ---

I have had one issue since the HT install, but it's unrelated (from what I can tell) to C4 or the network. The Roku Ultra (2019) does not appear to like the Integra DRX 3.3 receiver. This is the only device that has a problem, the 4K Blu-ray player does not have this issue at all. When you put the Roku into 4K HDR mode (either 4K HDR mode) it has an issue where it won't display video on a regular basis, just a "black" (in my case blue) screen. Rarely you'll see an HDCP error pop up on-screen and almost immediately disappear, but most of the time just no video. Back out of the video and try again, or turn off the receiver and turn it back on, and find out the video is there and has been advancing in real-time. You just couldn't see or hear the video running due to the error/compatibility issue. I ruled out the Roku or Balun having an issue by pulling the Roku from the receiver and plugging it directly into the Balun. Hundreds of videos (4k HDR 60 display setting) without issue. Tried swapping HDMI cables from the 4k BD player to replace the Roku HDMI cable, no resolution. Plug it back into the receiver and the problem appears again shortly. Replace the receiver to balun HDMI, same issue.

Now this is manageable. Set the Roku Ultra (2019) to 4K 60, and you can play it all day bouncing in and out of videos, without an issue. This is not ideal, of course. I'm probably going to have to watch Integra/Onkyo fight it out with Roku and pray one of them releases an update that fixes the (apparent) compatibility issue.

---

Other than that C4 has been operating well thus far. Used it to stream music at Thanksgiving during dinner. Can't wait for the spring install of the outdoor speakers on the patio so we can have music / news outside while I'm grilling/smoking or we're eating. We'll see as time goes on how things integrate, particularly the security items.

[Cyknight]

2 hours ago, jderks said:

Unfortunately they have thus far been resistant to my request

I'm not familiar with the company as sch (they aren't here) but I know numerous dealers HAVE managed to get this done over the years when there is no TV in place.

Again, I do not know them, but do they not even have an option to bridge a single port over?

Worst case, you could always set up a DMZ, which generally works fine for C4 (though I can't comment on any other setups you may have, ie VPN etc)

 

2 hours ago, jderks said:

watch Integra/Onkyo fight it out with Roku

Hmm, I'm not 100% sure but I think a somewhat recent Roku update messed something up there, I believe others may have posted on it, I'm not familiar with the issue myself

[Neo1738]

Another option for blinds is PowerView. If you can get Cat5e both power and data go over Cat5e no special wires.