Composer Pro for Home Owners - A path for success

[Jayaredoubleu]

31 minutes ago, eggzlot said:

so a dealer can charge someone $X/hr to sit at a computer and fix programming issues or they can charge $X/hr to go install hardware where they also made $Y profit selling the hardware.  Option 2 is more bang for your buck as you have more profit coming in on the same hourly basis.

$1,000 a year may seem like a lot, but I guess where I live in Northern NJ those rates would be about 8-12 hours of support.  Not a heck of a lot.  After that they have to charge again for hours for support.  Most dealers do not have a help desk waiting on tickets to help with support.  Most are in the field designing/installing new systems.  Just inherently that is where the $$ is at in this industry.  Sales, not support.  

Maybe that means there is an opening for a company to do 100% C4 (and other) programming and no real sales.  But to be a C4 dealer, and get Composer Pro licenses, etc you need sales volumes, a showroom, etc, so that is tough.  Those requirements push sales and support tends to be an afterthought.

I know some dealers are pushing RMR with quarterly/yearly support contracts.  But I would gather most are not at that point yet in their business models.  

I am not against the idea, I am an end user.  But I think C4 has done a fair job with ComposerHE and When/Then to give the customer a lot of options.  In another thread I may be saying how nice the Crestron/Savant remote is compared to the new Neeo remote, but I stick with C4 because of ComposerHE.  If that went away my gear would be up for sale tomorrow.  So I'd welcome more power and control but I know why and I really do not lose sleep over it.  It does not take much for a good remote dealer to plop in a driver then I can program it all I want.

I agree with most of this.   However, you are not factoring in $1000 as pure profit to bottom line, you are converting it to hours for an employee.  To do a fair comparison, you would have to translate profit per hour of work to compare.   My guess is it is more like 40 hours of work to generate $1000 in profit to bottom line. 

Also - you are still missing the point that you could charge for hardware and install!!   I assume most people who would pay $1000 for Composer Pro also have the money to buy lots of stuff for their system!  Which means they are the most likely people to want to buy more stuff and constantly upgrade.   I know in my case, just being a part of this forum every day and attending CEDIA and other stuff - I am super current on what is out there and pushing my dealer more than they are pushing me for new tech!

[Jayaredoubleu]

31 minutes ago, eggzlot said:

so a dealer can charge someone $X/hr to sit at a computer and fix programming issues or they can charge $X/hr to go install hardware where they also made $Y profit selling the hardware.  Option 2 is more bang for your buck as you have more profit coming in on the same hourly basis.

$1,000 a year may seem like a lot, but I guess where I live in Northern NJ those rates would be about 8-12 hours of support.  Not a heck of a lot.  After that they have to charge again for hours for support.  Most dealers do not have a help desk waiting on tickets to help with support.  Most are in the field designing/installing new systems.  Just inherently that is where the $$ is at in this industry.  Sales, not support.  

Maybe that means there is an opening for a company to do 100% C4 (and other) programming and no real sales.  But to be a C4 dealer, and get Composer Pro licenses, etc you need sales volumes, a showroom, etc, so that is tough.  Those requirements push sales and support tends to be an afterthought.

I know some dealers are pushing RMR with quarterly/yearly support contracts.  But I would gather most are not at that point yet in their business models.  

I am not against the idea, I am an end user.  But I think C4 has done a fair job with ComposerHE and When/Then to give the customer a lot of options.  In another thread I may be saying how nice the Crestron/Savant remote is compared to the new Neeo remote, but I stick with C4 because of ComposerHE.  If that went away my gear would be up for sale tomorrow.  So I'd welcome more power and control but I know why and I really do not lose sleep over it.  It does not take much for a good remote dealer to plop in a driver then I can program it all I want.

I agree with most of this.   However, you are not factoring in $1000 as pure profit to bottom line, you are converting it to hours for an employee.  To do a fair comparison, you would have to translate profit per hour of work to compare.   My guess is it is more like 40 hours of work to generate $1000 in profit to bottom line. 

Also - you are still missing the point that you could charge for hardware and install!!   I assume most people who would pay $1000 for Composer Pro also have the money to buy lots of stuff for their system!  Which means they are the most likely people to want to buy more stuff and constantly upgrade.   I know in my case, just being a part of this forum every day and attending CEDIA and other stuff - I am super current on what is out there and pushing my dealer more than they are pushing me for new tech!

[Jayaredoubleu]

I guess what I am surprised about overall is the home automation dealership/user model doesn't reflect how other big companies do it in different industries. 

Rockwell Automation, Siemens, Cisco, etc.  The HUGE companies out there that do industrial automation don't operate this way. 

The company I work for (a systems integrator) is a 200 person engineering firm who installs industrial automation systems in factories.   (Similar in concept to dealers here and home owners).   The only difference is there is that the hardware companies don't impose restriction on licenses that have to go through my company - the customer can buy whatever they want from the distributor - they just have to pay for it.  In fact, we usually encourage companies to buy the software themselves, that way its easier for our company to demonstrate its value - we know what we are doing

As for my comment about "part time hiring", my company does it all the time.  We have contractors on staff on an as needed basis to deal with high demand times or skills.   I would be willing to do this same thing for a dealer here - there should be no issues with liability to breach of contract.   

So....If any authorized dealer out there needs a remote worker to help out on occasion - I am confident we can come to a mutually beneficial arrangement!  

 

[Brownbatsbreath]

1 hour ago, Jayaredoubleu said:

Has anyone brought it up in the same path I just laid out? A path that is still Dealer-centric? 

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

A few thousand times I would imagine.

Nothing wrong with bringing it up again, just know this thread will become a dumpster fire fairly quickly. 

 

[-defunct-]

Call me a skeptic, but I doubt Pro or anything similar will be available to home owners. I would not be surprised if it went the opposite direction.

[Cyknight]

2 hours ago, Jayaredoubleu said:

Has it ever been asked before to have a Composer Pro option for Home Owners?

No, never been asked. What a brilliant brand new thought you have there

[Cyknight]

1 hour ago, Jayaredoubleu said:

If a dealer sells Composer pro for $1000.  That is PURE profit on the bottom line.

Dealers aren't allowed to sell ComposerPro. They sell hardware , install and programming services.

[Cyknight]

2 hours ago, Dunamivora said:

That is not Composer Pro. That's a program called System Manager (That does only come with Pro)

Actually, that would be detective suite

[Cyknight]

1 hour ago, Jayaredoubleu said:

The only difference is instead of paying me cash, they pay me with a program.

You cannot claim employment in exchange for a product that has no monetary value.

Any dealer CAN of course hire a part-time employee, and give (and revoke) access to composer. That is, after you've done the official training required for it.

[niall]

Jayaredoubleu you make a very good argument.

There are many parallels between home automation and the computer industry in the early days. If you wanted to do custom things on computers in the past you had to spend a lot on a compiler. Now they are free or included.

The same with how many computer shops there were 25 years ago, now everyone is more skilled, things are easier to do, and there are hardly any.

Will the home automation market go the same way? I wouldn't bet against it.

[robbie3130]

It already has

[-defunct-]

1 hour ago, Cyknight said:

Actually, that would be detective suite

lol, that one only shows programming, not logs and troubleshooting capabilities, but for sure a useful tool that only comes with Pro.

[Jayaredoubleu]

1 hour ago, Cyknight said:

You cannot claim employment in exchange for a product that has no monetary value.

Any dealer CAN of course hire a part-time employee, and give (and revoke) access to composer. That is, after you've done the official training required for it.

There are many ways to set up employment. Full time, part time, contractor, apprentice, intern, temporary, freelance, etc. 

How employment contracts are set up are between the employer and employee.    So is it possible to set up this agreement I would be looking for? Legally, yes. 

My interest is in Composer Pro.  The dealers interest could be in a variety of things.   For example: My programming capability, my time, my marketing experience, my sales experience, my consultation, etc.  All that would need to be determined is the point where the arrangement is mutually beneficial for both parties. 

Make sense?

[Jayaredoubleu]

As another option......

I believe if I am a driver developer, I would have access to Composer Pro - is that right?

I really would love to learn how to write my own drivers, but don't really know where to start? 

If developing drivers gives you access to Composer Pro, could anyone help teach me how to write drivers?    As a controls engineer, I would learn quickly. (And of course I would be willing to pay!).   

 

[KWD]

[msgreenf]

As another option......
I believe if I am a driver developer, I would have access to Composer Pro - is that right?
I really would love to learn how to write my own drivers, but don't really know where to start? 
If developing drivers gives you access to Composer Pro, could anyone help teach me how to write drivers?    As a controls engineer, I would learn quickly. (And of course I would be willing to pay!).   
 

Driver developers have to be approved by Control4. Based on what you shared with your programming experience you would not likely be approved.

[ERDrPC]

12 minutes ago, msgreenf said:

1 hour ago, Jayaredoubleu said:

 

Driver developers have to be approved by Control4. Based on what you shared with your programming experience you would not likely be approved.

What are the criteria? Degree in computer science?  How does a new developer get the opportunity to break into the market?

[AdamT]

1. You keep referring to programming as "writing code" and thats really not what it is. In my mind you referring to it like that makes me think you shouldnt have access to Composer Pro

2. Someone adding you as an employee (even a contractor) would also give you access to all of their customers systems and this would be an outright fail.

3. Yes every dealer has to sign a document that gives C4 the right to revoke dealer status (and the buying power and the Composer Pro you seek) if they are caught giving out a Composer Pro License. 

4. If you were such a savvy "programmer" you would have found the bootleg versions of Composer Pro that are floating around. 

5. Don't ask me about #4

[cdepaola]

7 hours ago, Dunamivora said:

I don't see it ever happening.

It would be a slap in the face to the dealers and CI channel.

 

Composer HE exists for homeowners and that can customize quite a bit.

I disagree that its a slap in the face... Most dealers in my area don't give a rats a$$ about the client once the initial install is done, UNLESS they are doing a large upgrade. 

This attitude could change if the housing market takes a dump, my closest dealers whom I'm friends with are so busy on new home construction installs they want nothing to do maintenance or small adds like single dimmers, adding a Roku, etc. 

I've long thought Control4 should offer another dealer/partner level, lets call it Programming and Tech Support.  Your not a dealer but your an independent programmer and can offer maintenance contracts, etc. You are still licensed through Control4, still have to attend/pass training, etc.  Maybe this costs $5000 or some other number... 

I know this is different that what was originally discussed/asked for, sorry. 

 

[jfh]

6 hours ago, Dunamivora said:

Personally, the best chance would likely be asking for features to be addes to Composer HE, than asking for Pro.

I'd also say support needs to be DIY as well. I wouldn't want to be forced to support a customer system that gets modified/broken by the customer all the time...

Don’t hold your breath.

Control4 has shown no interest in doing even basic additions like letting HE users print out programming.  I was told two, maybe three years ago by C4 that was a reasonable request that had been added to the development list but It’s still not in the code (nor is any of the new programming detail in OS3).   (Essentially the DS functions).
 

And the locking down Pro to a specific project wouldn’t bother me, but it seems a little disingenuous to say that dealers would be concerned that non-dealer Pro users would encroach on their territory when existing dealers already do the same thing by offering remote services outside their area.

[-defunct-]

43 minutes ago, cdepaola said:

I disagree that its a slap in the face... Most dealers in my area don't give a rats a$$ about the client once the initial install is done, UNLESS they are doing a large upgrade. 

This attitude could change if the housing market takes a dump, my closest dealers whom I'm friends with are so busy on new home construction installs they want nothing to do maintenance or small adds like single dimmers, adding a Roku, etc. 

I've long thought Control4 should offer another dealer/partner level, lets call it Programming and Tech Support.  Your not a dealer but your an independent programmer and can offer maintenance contracts, etc. You are still licensed through Control4, still have to attend/pass training, etc.  Maybe this costs $5000 or some other number... 

I know this is different that what was originally discussed/asked for, sorry. 

 

If it's not worth their time to service their original customers, then they're not offering service contracts at a level/price that would interest them in providing service. I think you touched on that with they don't come back unless it's a large upgrade.

[Cyknight]

4 hours ago, Jayaredoubleu said:

So is it possible to set up this agreement I would be looking for? Legally, yes. 

Not really.

You keep skirting around the fact that there is a legally binding contract between a dealer and Control4 - and you're spun-up 'options' of handing out ComposerPro as payment fall within the parameters of what would allow Control4 to terminate a dealership.

And yes, they HAVE terminated dealers (including large volume ones) for such infractions.

So we're back to the idea that what you state you have to offer is likely not going to be worth the risk for a dealer to accept.

 

 

[Cyknight]

1 hour ago, Dunamivora said:

then they're not offering service contracts at a level/price that would interest them in providing service

Or hourly rates.

Or they are, but people are unwilling to pay.

2 hours ago, cdepaola said:

they want nothing to do maintenance or small adds like single dimmers, adding a Roku, etc.

Understand that I think this is a poor policy.

In the end that attitude tends to bite them in the rear end.

Seen it happen.

[Cyknight]

8 hours ago, Jayaredoubleu said:

The biggest thing I honestly want more than anything, is an ability to install my own drivers. 

Yes we get that. That would also be the biggest argument against allowing it if the intend is to be a dealer only model (regardless of anyone's opinion on if that it the right approach or not).

 

In the end of it all, this thread is one that pops up every few months. The arguments are always the same. Nope you are bringing nothing new to the table.

 

“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results.”  ~ often accredited to Albert Einstein

[therockhr]

14 hours ago, Jayaredoubleu said:

I guess what I am surprised about overall is the home automation dealership/user model doesn't reflect how other big companies do it in different industries. 

Rockwell Automation, Siemens, Cisco, etc.  The HUGE companies out there that do industrial automation don't operate this way. 

The company I work for (a systems integrator) is a 200 person engineering firm who installs industrial automation systems in factories.   (Similar in concept to dealers here and home owners).   The only difference is there is that the hardware companies don't impose restriction on licenses that have to go through my company - the customer can buy whatever they want from the distributor - they just have to pay for it.  In fact, we usually encourage companies to buy the software themselves, that way its easier for our company to demonstrate its value - we know what we are doing

As for my comment about "part time hiring", my company does it all the time.  We have contractors on staff on an as needed basis to deal with high demand times or skills.   I would be willing to do this same thing for a dealer here - there should be no issues with liability to breach of contract.   

So....If any authorized dealer out there needs a remote worker to help out on occasion - I am confident we can come to a mutually beneficial arrangement!  

 

If you can program any modern Allen Bradley and/or any other PLC you would have no problem using Composer Pro. Its' simple. Writing drivers is a different thing though.

You arent going to change any minds on here and Composer Pro as is will never be available to end users. If you want to program (add devices) then find the bootleg versions.