Composer Pro for Home Owners - A path for success

[joecheech]

I THOUGHT I wanted Composer Pro when I first got my system but I came to understand the conflicts and potential problems that would cause. I find that HE definitely scratches my personal itch to customize and do some light programming. Further, with folks on this board, I find there is always someone around willing to remotely handle issues that can not be addressed by HE, like adding drivers and troubleshooting. Those folks that do this (at least the ones I’ve worked with) are responsive, trustworthy, reliable, and very reasonably priced.

What I’d like to see is a way for end users to get easier access to hardware. I know folks here will sell us things and that is greatly appreciated by me, but it would be great to be able to buy from C4 or NYCE or others directly. I wonder if there is a solution where we end users could buy online through our MyC4 page with the appropriate commission paid to our dealer of record. 
 

Not a complaint by any means but for folks like me who expand their system in drips and drabs I feel like it can be a real distraction for my dealer when I want to order two light switches and he is in the middle of lighting up an entire house. 

[robbie3130]

The notion that a controls system engineer is not qualified for C4 programming is laughable to me.

Drag and drop isn’t that hard guys..

[eggzlot]

12 hours ago, cdepaola said:

I disagree that its a slap in the face... Most dealers in my area don't give a rats a$$ about the client once the initial install is done, UNLESS they are doing a large upgrade. 

This attitude could change if the housing market takes a dump, my closest dealers whom I'm friends with are so busy on new home construction installs they want nothing to do maintenance or small adds like single dimmers, adding a Roku, etc. 

I've long thought Control4 should offer another dealer/partner level, lets call it Programming and Tech Support.  Your not a dealer but your an independent programmer and can offer maintenance contracts, etc. You are still licensed through Control4, still have to attend/pass training, etc.  Maybe this costs $5000 or some other number... 

I know this is different that what was originally discussed/asked for, sorry. 

 

I've always thought this would be a fantastic idea.  No clue if there is money to be made but staff a global desk 24x7 with support who just focus on programming.  Heck maybe its even C4 employees and you can pay hourly, or it can be a 3rd party company.  

The idea of ordering hardware and automatically giving commission to your dealer of record is also a good idea.  You can now re-up 4sight without annoying your dealer and I am sure they still get their piece.  Imagine going to Control4.com, ordering a few light switches, installing them then calling your dealer to ID them.  I'd think its a win for everyone.  Though I know C4 wants to push the "partnership" idea and I am fine with it but some dealers handle that aspect better than others.

[RyanE]

2 hours ago, therockhr said:

You aren't going to change any minds on here and Composer Pro as is will never be available to end users.

The minds you would need to change to convince them that doing this would be of value to the company are not on here.

RyanE

[Darkimedes]

27 minutes ago, eggzlot said:

I've always thought this would be a fantastic idea.  No clue if there is money to be made but staff a global desk 24x7 with support who just focus on programming.  Heck maybe its even C4 employees and you can pay hourly, or it can be a 3rd party company.  

The idea of ordering hardware and automatically giving commission to your dealer of record is also a good idea.  You can now re-up 4sight without annoying your dealer and I am sure they still get their piece.  Imagine going to Control4.com, ordering a few light switches, installing them then calling your dealer to ID them.  I'd think its a win for everyone.  Though I know C4 wants to push the "partnership" idea and I am fine with it but some dealers handle that aspect better than others.

I don't think dealers would be very happy if the homeowner could call C4 and get programming done by someone else. While the homeowner can change the dealer of record at any time, I as sure would not like it if someone else came and changed a project that I was supposed to handle. Now when I go back, things are not as I left them and I have to figure out what was done. Result- pissed dealers and higher bills for the end user when I have to dig through and charge for my time. That would end up in having even more homeowners go to C4 for programming remotely, eventually turning "dealers" into storefronts that provide leads to C4 and do installations.

 

Letting customers buy material through C4 at full list and giving a portion to the dealer or record? That is an idea I could possibly get behind. Dealer isn't cut out of the process (like 4Sight renewal) and should be notified when the homeowner does purchase. Dealer could thank the user and reach out to schedule programming.

[eggzlot]

10 minutes ago, BakerBalay said:

I don't think dealers would be very happy if the homeowner could call C4 and get programming done by someone else. While the homeowner can change the dealer of record at any time, I as sure would not like it if someone else came and changed a project that I was supposed to handle. Now when I go back, things are not as I left them and I have to figure out what was done. Result- pissed dealers and higher bills for the end user when I have to dig through and charge for my time. That would end up in having even more homeowners go to C4 for programming remotely, eventually turning "dealers" into storefronts that provide leads to C4 and do installations.

 

Letting customers buy material through C4 at full list and giving a portion to the dealer or record? That is an idea I could possibly get behind. Dealer isn't cut out of the process (like 4Sight renewal) and should be notified when the homeowner does purchase. Dealer could thank the user and reach out to schedule programming.

if a specific dealer gives good support after the sale the user would have no interest to go to a c4-staffed or 3rd party support shop (if either idea COULD be a potential).  it is for customers who have had less than stellar post sales experience (this forum and others are flooded with such stories) and these people would have resources post sales for what they hope would be better support

Kudos to you if all of your clients are enjoying your service post sales - that is great you can keep that going but lots of dealer design/install and move on to the next big design/install and routine updates/maintenance/troubleshooting after install lag behind.

C4 would not do the installs/design in this scenario.  And again it could be a non c4 entity, as mentioned upthread a level of certification just to do programming without sales volume quotas.

Again some dealers may be better post instal than others, and they would not need to worry about 3rd parties offering ongoing support.  And some dealers may welcome pushing their clients off to a 3rd party to support so they can go design/install new systems,.

[robbie3130]

I think in the end the market will do the talking.

If they don’t think they’re bleeding customers/sales to the likes of Smart Things/RadioRA2 etc they’re kidding themselves.

I could be wrong but it seems like they think Crestron is their biggest competitor.. but Crestron has one thing C4 doesn’t.. commercial (on a large scale).

The pricing is a bit out to lunch too.. at my place of work we pay less for Crestron than C4 MSRP for a comparable product.

As the non-tech savvy demographic ages, less and less people are going to be willing to pay for someone else to do something they can do themselves.

Kids in elementary school are writing mobile apps.. you think they’re gonna pay a dealer to program home automation?

Times have changed, and I’d put money on C4 either changing their business model or going bankrupt (figuratively speaking) in 5-10 years.

Seriously, who wants to call a dealer to change a default dim level on a dimmer? It’s absurd.

I do think C4 makes a premium product, and I have a decent sized system myself (and programmed myself..thanks Meekah) but it seriously must be a hard sell to anyone under 35 with an Alexa and some Leviton or hue already in their home.

The thought of paying a dealer hourly to sit in a queue with C4 support gives me anxiety.

[-defunct-]

9 minutes ago, robbie3130 said:

I think in the end the market will do the talking.

If they don’t think they’re bleeding customers/sales to the likes of Smart Things/RadioRA2 etc they’re kidding themselves.

I could be wrong but it seems like they think Crestron is their biggest competitor.. but Crestron has one thing C4 doesn’t.. commercial (on a large scale).

The pricing is a bit out to lunch too.. at my place of work we pay less for Crestron than C4 MSRP for a comparable product.

As the non-tech savvy demographic ages, less and less people are going to be willing to pay for someone else to do something they can do themselves.

Kids in elementary school are writing mobile apps.. you think they’re gonna pay a dealer to program home automation?

Times have changed, and I’d put money on C4 either changing their business model or going bankrupt (figuratively speaking) in 5-10 years.

Seriously, who wants to call a dealer to change a default dim level on a dimmer? It’s absurd.

I do think C4 makes a premium product, and I have a decent sized system myself (and programmed myself..thanks Meekah) but it seriously must be a hard sell to anyone under 35 with an Alexa and some Leviton or hue already in their home.

The thought of paying a dealer hourly to sit in a queue with C4 support gives me anxiety.
 

That is what HE is for.

You can change the default dim level of a light using Composer HE.

[robbie3130]

I didn’t think the System Design tab showed in Composer HE?

[-defunct-]

1 minute ago, robbie3130 said:

I didn’t think the System Design tab showed in Composer HE?

It's called Monitoring and you can switch over to view driver properties.

 

Default is to show the list of items, not the properties.

[robbie3130]

It's called Monitoring and you can switch over to view driver properties.
 
Default is to show the list of items, not the properties.

Fair enough

[therockhr]

2 hours ago, RyanE said:

The minds you would need to change to convince them that doing this would be of value to the company are not on here.

RyanE

They are on here, they just probably dont post or go under a different name, but again it doesnt matter. But some are for sure on here.

The models for how Composer Pro could be available to an end user are out there. Lutron and the PLC companies do it. You create 2 types of licenses; 1 for an end user that is tied to their system and another that is used by the integrators (dealers) that can be used on any system. Support is handle through authorized retailers or integrators and they charge an outrageous (but warranted) fee to help you if you get stuck. There would also be unofficial support on outside forums. The system is not marketed or sold as DIY or even mentioned that an end user can do stuff, it is just an available option for people who dig hard enough.

The reason this is not done is for fear of backlash from dealers. C4 wont give this option because they have probably determined that the increase in new users would not offset the loss of dealers who would leave to another vendor. Thats it and it truly is a valid reason. I understand it but i dont like it.

[RAV]

It's not about the money.

Control4 needs to protect it's name from people messing with installed projects to the point of making them in-operatable, than they'll go and bad mouth the brand that it's junk. "I'm an xyz engineer and this crap can't ......" Being real, we all see the world today, the thrown french fries, trucks driven through store fronts, personal attacks, media splash on action rather than truth. Alexa Hacked with a Laser! And while 100 users could do just fine with Pro, it would only take 1 to cause harm and loss.

Your argument will be that there are bad dealers. And you're right. Some of it is policed well, others not so much. But today Control4 maintains the ability even if not always the action for correction.

The home automation industry is cleaving. While Control4's intent is for the masses, the mega companies that make up FANG (facebook, amazon, netflix, google, apple) are cutting in. It's more important now than ever to have a partition between the DIY of FANG and Professionally Installed products. Not out of complexity, but privacy and reliability. I suspect this is why Crestron is taking another look at the residential market.

[Jayaredoubleu]

16 hours ago, msgreenf said:

17 hours ago, Jayaredoubleu said:

As another option......
I believe if I am a driver developer, I would have access to Composer Pro - is that right?
I really would love to learn how to write my own drivers, but don't really know where to start? 
If developing drivers gives you access to Composer Pro, could anyone help teach me how to write drivers?    As a controls engineer, I would learn quickly. (And of course I would be willing to pay!).   
 

Driver developers have to be approved by Control4. Based on what you shared with your programming experience you would not likely be approved.

Out of curiosity, why would I not be approved?

I have a degree in Electrical Engineering and work for an industrial automation systems integrator (of which part of my time has been a controls engineer developing systems)

Do I know how to write drivers for C4? No, but I have programmed in many languages before, including at the firmware and IC level.   So, I am confident with a few nudges and rule setting, I could start to implement drivers quickly. 

What I am looking for is someone who could help me get started! (and like I Said before, I am of course willing to pay for the time - whatever a fair rate would be)

[eggzlot]

8 minutes ago, Jayaredoubleu said:

Out of curiosity, why would I not be approved?

I have a degree in Electrical Engineering and work for an industrial automation systems integrator (of which part of my time has been a controls engineer developing systems)

Do I know how to write drivers for C4? No, but I have programmed in many languages before, including at the firmware and IC level.   So, I am confident with a few nudges and rule setting, I could start to implement drivers quickly. 

What I am looking for is someone who could help me get started! (and like I Said before, I am of course willing to pay for the time - whatever a fair rate would be)

you mentioned you attended CEDIA?

For what you are trying to accomplish, I'd use LinkedIN and events (like CEDIA) to do networking to create potential interest in your services based on friendships and mutual interests.  Not sure asking for a job/apprenticeship on this forum will get you much.

Take the advice with a grain of salt - I've only been in the IT Staffing industry for 15+ years and been active on these forums for about 5.

[Jayaredoubleu]

16 hours ago, AdamT said:

1. You keep referring to programming as "writing code" and thats really not what it is. In my mind you referring to it like that makes me think you shouldnt have access to Composer Pro

2. Someone adding you as an employee (even a contractor) would also give you access to all of their customers systems and this would be an outright fail.

3. Yes every dealer has to sign a document that gives C4 the right to revoke dealer status (and the buying power and the Composer Pro you seek) if they are caught giving out a Composer Pro License. 

4. If you were such a savvy "programmer" you would have found the bootleg versions of Composer Pro that are floating around. 

5. Don't ask me about #4

AdamT, 

     Come on, give me some credit...  My intentions are good, and that is why I am reaching out to this group.   Would I describe myself as a savvy "programmer"? No.  But my degree is in EE, and I run a team of controls engineering team at an industrial system integration company - so I live in the world of "system design", "programming, and "code" - I am sorry if my colloquial use of the words doesn't match yours.    The point is - I understand system design, understand software development, and "programming".  Plus, I really like C4 and want to be a huge advocate for it!   (Including help to make custom drivers).  

To address your second question: Once again, I feel my intentions are lost here.   I am not asking for access to a dealers customers.  I am actually asking to have a mutual employment agreement.   For example, maybe a dealer wants an evening "support technician" - where I could offer to help a few days a week.   Instead of paying me as a full time employee, they pay me very little (if anything).  What I get in turn is a copy of composer pro.   If the employer/employee relationship doesn't work out or doesn't remain mutually beneficial - they I part ways with the company and would be forced to give up my license, no different than any other employee.    The only thing I am trying to do differently here is NOT be a full time programmer.  I already have a full time job.   I am willing to work part time - That shows how dedicated I am to this!  Just think of me saying to the world  "

To address your third question: I understand.  I am not looking for a copy of composer to be "given out."  I am looking for an ability to be an authorized employee at a dealer, with a non-traditional work arrangement (as I already have a full time job).   My main request isn't money either - THAT is the defining difference. 

To address your fourth question:  I have no intentions of a bootlegged copy.  I want to do this legit - the right way.   I genuinely want to work out a mutually beneficial arrangement where a dealer goes "Hey - this is a great arrangement!"

 

 

[Jayaredoubleu]

14 hours ago, Cyknight said:

Not really.

You keep skirting around the fact that there is a legally binding contract between a dealer and Control4 - and you're spun-up 'options' of handing out ComposerPro as payment fall within the parameters of what would allow Control4 to terminate a dealership.

And yes, they HAVE terminated dealers (including large volume ones) for such infractions.

So we're back to the idea that what you state you have to offer is likely not going to be worth the risk for a dealer to accept.

 

 

Cyknight,

     Like I mentioned to AdamT,  I am not looking for a "hand out" of Composer Pro - I am looking for a mutually beneficial employment relationship.   I don't want to put any dealer in a position that their contract could be terminated.  But, I am extremely confident, that arrangements could be made that benefit both parties.  

Here are a few examples off the top of my head:

• I offer to do evening or weekend phone/remote support for existing customer base
• I attend CEDIA & CES shows (funded by myself) and report back findings and updates.  Plus I would represent the dealer at these events.  
• As a person who has been very successful in growing a small engineering firm into a mid size engineering firm, I would be happy to help share any business insight I can.  Think of this as acting as a business consultant.
• As one of the senior leaders in my current company - I also have access to marketing teams, engineering teams, and commercial/industrial customers.   So, in addition to access to my companies resources, there is also access to my personal network of clients.

The point is...... I am not looking for anything for free.  I have no interest in being a full time technician. However, I do have a unique skill set that I can offer, and knowing money is not what I am seeking - I am sure we can find ways to work together. 

Make sense? 

[Jayaredoubleu]

16 minutes ago, eggzlot said:

you mentioned you attended CEDIA?

For what you are trying to accomplish, I'd use LinkedIN and events (like CEDIA) to do networking to create potential interest in your services based on friendships and mutual interests.  Not sure asking for a job/apprenticeship on this forum will get you much.

Take the advice with a grain of salt - I've only been in the IT Staffing industry for 15+ years and been active on these forums for about 5.

The main intent of this forum was not me fishing for a job with a dealer (I was half kidding and half serious when I said it).  I would work out an arrangement if someone wants it - but at the end of the day - it might not logistically work out.   I haven't been trying that hard, and don't intend to.

 The main intent was seeing peoples thoughts around my dealer-centric Composer Pro path to success.  I legitimately want this to work in a manner that is favorable for C4, dealers, and die-hard home owners who are C4 lifers! 

 

[Jayaredoubleu]

4 hours ago, BakerBalay said:

I don't think dealers would be very happy if the homeowner could call C4 and get programming done by someone else. While the homeowner can change the dealer of record at any time, I as sure would not like it if someone else came and changed a project that I was supposed to handle. Now when I go back, things are not as I left them and I have to figure out what was done. Result- pissed dealers and higher bills for the end user when I have to dig through and charge for my time. That would end up in having even more homeowners go to C4 for programming remotely, eventually turning "dealers" into storefronts that provide leads to C4 and do installations.

 

Letting customers buy material through C4 at full list and giving a portion to the dealer or record? That is an idea I could possibly get behind. Dealer isn't cut out of the process (like 4Sight renewal) and should be notified when the homeowner does purchase. Dealer could thank the user and reach out to schedule programming.

BakerBalay,

       There are a couple points I would want to address here:

1. I think your response missed one of my required proposals for making this work: Customers still cannot directly call C4 - the dealers are first line of defense.  I just suggested offering a path to allow a dealer "approval" to call C4 in certain rare circumstances.   This could be especially true if C4 requires someone being "on-site", and the dealer is perfectly comfortable with the home owner being the one "on-site", while the dealer is just on the phone remotely.   Make sense? 
2. Question: If my proposal at the beginning of this forum was magically approved, How many home owners would realistically do it? How many home owners would pay $1000 and take a class? Are we talking 5%? 30%? 80%?   My guess is only a small fraction of people would buy it.  
3. If a home owner did have access to Composer Pro (especially if they have the disposable income to spend $1000 or more on it), my guess is they are a tinker and WANT to constantly buy new stuff for the system.   So, if that is the case - wouldn't a dealer love that customer?   There are no sales calls needed at all! Just a customer wanting to BUY BUY BUY!  And if the home owner screws something up - the dealer makes money helping them out     (and if the main dealer doesn't want that work - I am sure someone here in this forum would gladly accept that type of work!) 

 

 

 

[Darkimedes]

1 hour ago, Jayaredoubleu said:

BakerBalay,

       There are a couple points I would want to address here:

1. I think your response missed one of my required proposals for making this work: Customers still cannot directly call C4 - the dealers are first line of defense.  I just suggested offering a path to allow a dealer "approval" to call C4 in certain rare circumstances.   This could be especially true if C4 requires someone being "on-site", and the dealer is perfectly comfortable with the home owner being the one "on-site", while the dealer is just on the phone remotely.   Make sense? 
2. Question: If my proposal at the beginning of this forum was magically approved, How many home owners would realistically do it? How many home owners would pay $1000 and take a class? Are we talking 5%? 30%? 80%?   My guess is only a small fraction of people would buy it.  
3. If a home owner did have access to Composer Pro (especially if they have the disposable income to spend $1000 or more on it), my guess is they are a tinker and WANT to constantly buy new stuff for the system.   So, if that is the case - wouldn't a dealer love that customer?   There are no sales calls needed at all! Just a customer wanting to BUY BUY BUY!  And if the home owner screws something up - the dealer makes money helping them out     (and if the main dealer doesn't want that work - I am sure someone here in this forum would gladly accept that type of work!) 

 

 

 

I was responding to @eggzlot 's suggestion that customers could have C4 do remote programming.

 

I was a Lutron rep for several years- totally focused on RadioRA2. I taught BLAST classes many times. We had a customer refuse to go HomeWorks because he was not able to learn the programming himself. He chose RadioRA2 because he could get access to the software, but he needed the Level2/Inclusive due to the size of his system. Made him a deal- show me the receipt from my dealer invoicing design, programming, material, and installation, and I would get him access. Not Lutron approved, but saved a $30k install from going to Legrand. Customer passed the L1/Essentials test and showed me an invoice- I unlocked his software. He was told if he messed it up, the dealer would charge to repair/reprogram by the hour. Year later he threw his hands in the air and just pays the dealer to do what he does. I believe he is the prime example of 99.89% of consumers looking to program. They want to save some money for small changes. Lutron has an editor in the app, C4 has When-->Then. You may be the exception that proves the rule, but law of diminishing returns applies. No where near enough $$ for C4 to justify this considering the backlash from the dealers and the amount of additional code for the software.

I would sell you a copy of Composer HE, along with a service agreement to reduce the cost of driver installation for you. In the long run, probably way cheaper than the $1000-$5000 you are suggesting.

[Jayaredoubleu]

3 hours ago, BakerBalay said:

I was responding to @eggzlot 's suggestion that customers could have C4 do remote programming.

 

I was a Lutron rep for several years- totally focused on RadioRA2. I taught BLAST classes many times. We had a customer refuse to go HomeWorks because he was not able to learn the programming himself. He chose RadioRA2 because he could get access to the software, but he needed the Level2/Inclusive due to the size of his system. Made him a deal- show me the receipt from my dealer invoicing design, programming, material, and installation, and I would get him access. Not Lutron approved, but saved a $30k install from going to Legrand. Customer passed the L1/Essentials test and showed me an invoice- I unlocked his software. He was told if he messed it up, the dealer would charge to repair/reprogram by the hour. Year later he threw his hands in the air and just pays the dealer to do what he does. I believe he is the prime example of 99.89% of consumers looking to program. They want to save some money for small changes. Lutron has an editor in the app, C4 has When-->Then. You may be the exception that proves the rule, but law of diminishing returns applies. No where near enough $$ for C4 to justify this considering the backlash from the dealers and the amount of additional code for the software.

I would sell you a copy of Composer HE, along with a service agreement to reduce the cost of driver installation for you. In the long run, probably way cheaper than the $1000-$5000 you are suggesting.

BakerBalay,

       In my case, I am not looking to save money.  I am looking for control over my system.   And I value this "control" soooooo much than I am offering to work part-time for a dealer or C4 or some developer....ANYONE......just for full access to my own system.  A system that I already own. 

Question for you:  Assuming you already have Composer Pro... If all of a sudden you didn't have access to Composer Pro anymore, would you happy about paying a dealer to do things than you already know you could do yourself? Or, would you switch away from C4 if you didn't have access to Composer Pro anymore? How would this be different than a trained mechanic not being allowed by a manufacturer to fix their own car?   

Second Question: If you (or the industry) is so worried about "home owners messing things up and causing a lot of support headaches" - how the heck did the home computer industry take off and flourish so well? Computers are a heck of a lot more complex and complicated than home automation systems, yet the industry has done quite well!  (And I wouldn't say its because most computer users are super savvy).

 

 

[-defunct-]

I'll bite on your questions.

1. If I couldn't use Pro to customize my own system after knowing how to do it, I'd probably look for a DIY control system if there was one that could compete (which honestly, there isn't). Since there isn't, I'd make sure the changes or additions I couldn't do with HE were important enough for me to spend money on the additions, otherwise I would just leave it as is.

If you relate it to cars, it would be like a dealership requiring parts to be purchased only by the dealership service department. For specialty cars like Mclarens, Ferraris, Bentleys, Teslas, Bugattis, Maserati, etc, I would not expect to fix it myself.

2. Home computers may be widely used, but using a computer is nearly an essential part of life now. Configuring a smart home system is not a skill that nearly everyone needs in order to do their job. It's almost a forced skill to learn.

Doing your own home system would be akin to building a custom desktop. That market pretty much only exists for hardcore gamers and crypto miners.

[Cyknight]

And the wheels on the bus go round and round......

[Brownbatsbreath]

Someone needs to make a ‘Composer Pro for end users’ bingo card. 

Only took 3 pages to get the usual favorites such as:

Just charge people for it!

I’m an engineer!

Control4 doesn’t need to support it!

Composer Pro is easy!

Composer Pro is hard!

Control4 could easily provide support!

Dealers won’t make small changes for me!

I program other things, I could figure it out!

Car analogy.

This would hurt dealers!

This would help dealers!

Car analogy again.

Lurton does it!

Make end users pay for a class!

Only 20 people in the world want Pro!

Control4 needs to change or die!

Bingo!

[South Africa C4 user]

On 11/6/2019 at 10:39 PM, msgreenf said:

It's brought up about every 3 months...

Sorry Mitch, you are wrong this time... It is brought up every 5 or 6 weeks!