Composer Pro for Home Owners - A path for success

[niall]

Anyone know what happens to companies who don't listen to their customers?

[-defunct-]

1 minute ago, niall said:

Anyone know what happens to companies who don't listen to their customers?

They find new customers and lose old customers

For real though, that's standard. Can't appease every single customer.

[niall]

1 minute ago, Dunamivora said:

They find new customers and lose old customers

For real though, that's standard. Can't appease every single customer.

Good point. I suppose it's the direction they want to go. there are only so many customers at the higher end, the explosion in growth is at the lower end.

When they max out the higher end, how will they increase profits if they can't grow their customers. I think the answer is in another popular thread on $600 remotes.

[eggzlot]

1 minute ago, niall said:

Good point. I suppose it's the direction they want to go. there are only so many customers at the higher end, the explosion in growth is at the lower end.

When they max out the higher end, how will they increase profits if they can't grow their customers. I think the answer is in another popular thread on $600 remotes.

I still think they have a LOOOONG way to go to max out the higher end.  Especially globally.  There is more new wealth in Asia and other areas where C4 is not nearly as established as it is in the US.  There is also the commercial space - today's Instagram post by C4 is about a hotel in Hawaii.  After hotels - maybe MDU's.  Maybe Hospitals.  Board rooms.  Places where Crestron reigns supreme but there is certainly room for competition in those markets.

Maybe C4 does not want to target the big box store/mass sale market.  Does that mean they are going belly up?

[niall]

Nope, but it means they are going away from some of the end users on this forum.

[KWD]

Harmony did $2.5 billion in sales last year compared C4s $272 million. Sure they are not the same but if they want to grow...

[eggzlot]

9 minutes ago, niall said:

Nope, but it means they are going away from some of the end users on this forum.

I've always thought the end users on this forum are vocal but in the way vast minority.  We represent maybe 1% of their user base at best (Statistically speaking) and have a very passionate opinion about the product/company that does not relate to how 99% of their customers see the product.

I've met 2 people in my town through friends who have C4 installed and could not care less about a forum, DIY services, Composer Pro, etc.  neither have Composer HE.  neither knew this website was operational, one said he may check it out the other could care less.  Both are happy customers.  They moved in, got a recommendation to add a system, did so, its in a closet somewhere and life goes on.  They have no idea what hardware they have or upgrades, etc. One friend who introduced us is a DIY type and said doesnt lack of control bother you?  And the guy said I work for a living, last thing I want to do on the weekend is fiddle.  I dont fix my toilets, I dont fix my computers, I want to spend time with my family on nights/weekends.  I think that is the customer C4 targets, affluent customers (does not have be a 5,000 sq ft mansion with 100+ lighting loads) who just want it to work and do not mind hiring someone to do it.

Again, we aren't the normal C4 customer on this forum.

[eggzlot]

12 minutes ago, KWD said:

Harmony did $2.5 billion in sales last year compared C4s $272 million. Sure they are not the same but if they want to grow...

hotel growth rate in India is expected to be 13% over the next 3-4 years.  

High net wealth in Asia-Pacific has grown almost 100% in 8 years, only 60% in the rest of the world

so maybe they are focusing on those markets and not the market flooded by Harmony?

I have no idea, just saying the mass market remote control sector isn't the only place for a company like C4.

[niall]

3 minutes ago, eggzlot said:

I've always thought the end users on this forum are vocal but in the way vast minority.  We represent maybe 1% of their user base at best (Statistically speaking) and have a very passionate opinion about the product/company that does not relate to how 99% of their customers see the product.

I've met 2 people in my town through friends who have C4 installed and could not care less about a forum, DIY services, Composer Pro, etc.  neither have Composer HE.  neither knew this website was operational, one said he may check it out the other could care less.  Both are happy customers.  They moved in, got a recommendation to add a system, did so, its in a closet somewhere and life goes on.  They have no idea what hardware they have or upgrades, etc. One friend who introduced us is a DIY type and said doesnt lack of control bother you?  And the guy said I work for a living, last thing I want to do on the weekend is fiddle.  I dont fix my toilets, I dont fix my computers, I want to spend time with my family on nights/weekends.  I think that is the customer C4 targets, affluent customers (does not have be a 5,000 sq ft mansion with 100+ lighting loads) who just want it to work and do not mind hiring someone to do it.

Again, we aren't the normal C4 customer on this forum.

Completely agree, I too have friends like this.

I think my point is that if C4 go for growth, and its not in the consumer end, then the dealers will of course follow for the better rewards. If that happens then what happens to the people who need to swop a switch or replace their TV and need a new driver.

[eggzlot]

30 minutes ago, niall said:

Completely agree, I too have friends like this.

I think my point is that if C4 go for growth, and its not in the consumer end, then the dealers will of course follow for the better rewards. If that happens then what happens to the people who need to swop a switch or replace their TV and need a new driver.

what happens to those people now?  Where there is money there is a service.  If dealers start to go towards corporate/hotel type work there will be 1-2 dealers that see the opportunity to service the local customer base.  Or C4 will allow more dealers to enter.  Who knows how the dealership landscape looks in 5 years with the recent Snap purchase. Time will tell.  As I agreed with up thread, I'd love C4 to allow for a business to just offer programming services and not have to meet hardware sales quotas.  Who knows if that is on the road map.  

and now that C4 is not publicly traded, their push for growth may not be as forced and could be more organic as they no longer have shareholders to report to and analysts to pressure them.

[jfh]

29 minutes ago, eggzlot said:

I've always thought the end users on this forum are vocal but in the way vast minority.  We represent maybe 1% of their user base at best (Statistically speaking) and have a very passionate opinion about the product/company that does not relate to how 99% of their customers see the product.

I've met 2 people in my town through friends who have C4 installed and could not care less about a forum, DIY services, Composer Pro, etc.  neither have Composer HE.  neither knew this website was operational, one said he may check it out the other could care less.  Both are happy customers.  They moved in, got a recommendation to add a system, did so, its in a closet somewhere and life goes on.  They have no idea what hardware they have or upgrades, etc. One friend who introduced us is a DIY type and said doesnt lack of control bother you?  And the guy said I work for a living, last thing I want to do on the weekend is fiddle.  I dont fix my toilets, I dont fix my computers, I want to spend time with my family on nights/weekends.  I think that is the customer C4 targets, affluent customers (does not have be a 5,000 sq ft mansion with 100+ lighting loads) who just want it to work and do not mind hiring someone to do it.

Again, we aren't the normal C4 customer on this forum.

‘And I have 5 poker buddies with houses much larger than mine who were interested in C4 after seeing my system until they learned they couldn’t update the system.  I think only one of them would actually do it, but no Pro ended up costing some dealer some significant projects.

We are indeed not the normal C4 customer here.  But we are exactly the fraction of the customer set C4 could use to evangelize and promote the product.  Licensing Pro to non-dealers who are willing to pay for official C4 training and agree to reasonable restrictions (e.g. locked to owner-only projects, support restrictions) is reasonable.  But all these threads end up the same way - those with Pro defend the status quo and try to convince the world that non-dealers with Pro would shatter the dealer model and destroy the company.

[eggzlot]

5 minutes ago, jfh said:

‘And I have 5 poker buddies with houses much larger than mine who were interested in C4 after seeing my system until they learned they couldn’t update the system.  I think only one of them would actually do it, but no Pro ended up costing some dealer some significant projects.

We are indeed not the normal C4 customer here.  But we are exactly the fraction of the customer set C4 could use to evangelize and promote the product.  Licensing Pro to non-dealers who are willing to pay for official C4 training and agree to reasonable restrictions (e.g. locked to owner-only projects, support restrictions) is reasonable.  But all these threads end up the same way - those with Pro defend the status quo and try to convince the world that non-dealers with Pro would shatter the dealer model and destroy the company.

yep its always circular

i dont have pro so i am not defending the status quo per se.  For the 5 poker buddies they turned off they got the 2 clients in my town which maybe long term is their strategy. 

I'll jump out now as I've said my peace.  I got C4 knowing Pro was not available and 5 years later its still not a thorn in my side

[Jayaredoubleu]

Even though I didn't get the full support I was hoping for with this threat - I really do enjoy the feedback, comments and opinions of everyone!

What I have learned through this:

1) I assumed Composer Pro was requested often by a small group of people, but what I didn't anticipate is that others have thought through a business model for how to make it actually work, in a way that is beneficial for C4, dealers, and home owners.   I learned something new!

2) Most people think I am just trying to get Composer Pro for free, or through some shady back door deal - That is not the case at all - I want a legit dealer arrangement that makes sense

3) It does seem like the best path is to fight for changes to Composer HE, instead of requesting Composer Pro.   So, ill tackle that route next!

My new questions for the group:

1) What is the best way to actually work through Composer HE modifications to include a few extra features?  I am not talking a forum thread - but an actual formal product request?

2) How can I learn how to make C4 drivers? Is anyone in this forum willing to teach me? (go ahead and charge your standard hourly rate)

[msgreenf]

3 hours ago, South Africa C4 user said:

Sorry Mitch, you are wrong this time... It is brought up every 5 or 6 weeks!

ROFL. fine! I will be wrong there

[msgreenf]

1 hour ago, Jayaredoubleu said:

1) I assumed Composer Pro was requested often by a small group of people, but what I didn't anticipate is that others have thought through a business model for how to make it actually work, in a way that is beneficial for C4, dealers, and home owners.   I learned something new!

search and you would find nearly verbatim threads from weeks ago

[jfh]

2 hours ago, Jayaredoubleu said:

 

What I have learned through this:

3) It does seem like the best path is to fight for changes to Composer HE, instead of requesting Composer Pro.   So, ill tackle that route next!

My new questions for the group:

1) What is the best way to actually work through Composer HE modifications to include a few extra features?  I am not talking a forum thread - but an actual formal product request?

 

 

After a similar thread a few years where i was pretty vocal, ago a C4 exec called me to discuss after he had taken a look at my project and some of the programming.  My biggest complaint about HE was that the (then) Detective Suite functions weren’t available to HE users.  DS didn’t change anything but allows reports of configurations/bindings and, more importantly, programming to be searched/printed.  For a project with anything more than some very basic code, trying to manage it without DS is challenging at best.  

Apparently as a result of that call, allowing HE users to run DS reports was formally added to development’s requirements list.

Since then the stand alone module that ran the function (usable by Pro or HE users) was folded into Pro and additional DS features were added to Pro.  HE still does not have any of the basic function, let alone the new stuff in OS3.  I think that sends a pretty clear message to HE users.  Some might even call it a middle finger salute. 

[Cyknight]

8 hours ago, niall said:

Anyone know what happens to companies who don't listen to their customers?

Apple Seems to be doing alright I'd say

[blub]

Apple Seems to be doing alright I'd say

Apple is a religion...

[Shivam Paw]

On 11/8/2019 at 3:14 AM, Cyknight said:

And the wheels on the bus go round and round......

Round and round. Round and round. The wheels on the bus go round and round, all day long. 

On 11/8/2019 at 8:53 PM, Jayaredoubleu said:

2) How can I learn how to make C4 drivers? Is anyone in this forum willing to teach me? (go ahead and charge your standard hourly rate)

Until you can understand how a driver works (bindings, proxies, protocols, connections, actions, commands etc.) there isn’t much you would be able to do. You could look at some open source drivers that are probably floating around on github. You could also look at the C4 driver database online, download a few and dig into them - if they aren’t encrypted that is.

If at some point you felt like you understood it all I reckon you could email C4 about becoming a partner and getting access to the DriverWorks SDK and development tools. From there, your first driver is a

print(“hello world”)

away. 

[Jayaredoubleu]

19 hours ago, Shivam Paw said:

Round and round. Round and round. The wheels on the bus go round and round, all day long. 

Until you can understand how a driver works (bindings, proxies, protocols, connections, actions, commands etc.) there isn’t much you would be able to do. You could look at some open source drivers that are probably floating around on github. You could also look at the C4 driver database online, download a few and dig into them - if they aren’t encrypted that is.

If at some point you felt like you understood it all I reckon you could email C4 about becoming a partner and getting access to the DriverWorks SDK and development tools. From there, your first driver is a

print(“hello world”)

away. 

Thanks for response.

Do I know how to write a driver? No.  Not a clue. 

I think I would be a quick study - and I would be willing to pay for training.    I am a controls engineering for an industrial automation systems integrator.  I don't need to learn "how to code".  I need to be taught the process and rules for how to make a driver for C4.  Every product and every process is entirely different.  And honestly, this market is different than I am typically used to. 

So, if there is someone who knows how to develop drivers.... Then tell me an hourly rate to sit down with me and teach me.   

 

[Shivam Paw]

7 minutes ago, Jayaredoubleu said:

Thanks for response.

Do I know how to write a driver? No.  Not a clue. 

I think I would be a quick study - and I would be willing to pay for training.    I am a controls engineering for an industrial automation systems integrator.  I don't need to learn "how to code".  I need to be taught the process and rules for how to make a driver for C4.  Every product and every process is entirely different.  And honestly, this market is different than I am typically used to. 

So, if there is someone who knows how to develop drivers.... Then tell me an hourly rate to sit down with me and teach me.   

 

It isn’t that simple. There are different types of drivers. Media services, intercom proxies, utility drivers. Even if you get someone to show you how to develop drivers what will you do? Because you won’t have access to Composer. 

[SouthernSmarthome]

Ok I’ll make this easy.
If you want composer pro and your not a dealer then I’m happy to help you.
For $10,000.00 a month paid in yearly lump sum payments and with no tech support, I’ll hook you up.
If you need tech support (most likely) then that will be an additional 5k a month for email support only.
For those of you that will need phone and remote support that will be another 10k a month
Tech support is only sold in 5year blocks.
I’ll be waiting for your phone calls.
Cash and cashier checks only.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jayaredoubleu]

31 minutes ago, Shivam Paw said:

It isn’t that simple. There are different types of drivers. Media services, intercom proxies, utility drivers. Even if you get someone to show you how to develop drivers what will you do? Because you won’t have access to Composer. 

Good questions!

My main interest would be in what I would refer to as "utility drivers" - these would be drivers that don't interact with any other 3rd party hardware.  

Assuming I could demonstrate the development of a driver (e.g. putting together the business case) - I would then reach out to C4 and ask to be an "authorized driver developer" to get a copy of Composer Pro.   Is that not right?   How do other driver developers get a copy of Composer Pro (when they themselves aren't a dealer and don't service/support C4 systems)

If you you how to develop drivers yourself.   Would it be worth $100 for an hour or two to walk me through what you know? 

I would think the C4 community would be very welcoming to have someone like myself who is excited about Control4 and is eager to either set up a mutually beneficial work arrangement to get a copy of Composer Pro or is willing to pay someone to help learn how to develop drivers! 

 

[eggzlot]

44 minutes ago, Jayaredoubleu said:

Good questions!

My main interest would be in what I would refer to as "utility drivers" - these would be drivers that don't interact with any other 3rd party hardware.  

Assuming I could demonstrate the development of a driver (e.g. putting together the business case) - I would then reach out to C4 and ask to be an "authorized driver developer" to get a copy of Composer Pro.   Is that not right?   How do other driver developers get a copy of Composer Pro (when they themselves aren't a dealer and don't service/support C4 systems)

If you you how to develop drivers yourself.   Would it be worth $100 for an hour or two to walk me through what you know? 

I would think the C4 community would be very welcoming to have someone like myself who is excited about Control4 and is eager to either set up a mutually beneficial work arrangement to get a copy of Composer Pro or is willing to pay someone to help learn how to develop drivers! 

 

I'll keep my answers and personal thoughts very brief:

https://www.control4.com/for/partners/

[therockhr]

38 minutes ago, Jayaredoubleu said:

Good questions!

My main interest would be in what I would refer to as "utility drivers" - these would be drivers that don't interact with any other 3rd party hardware.  

Assuming I could demonstrate the development of a driver (e.g. putting together the business case) - I would then reach out to C4 and ask to be an "authorized driver developer" to get a copy of Composer Pro.   Is that not right?   How do other driver developers get a copy of Composer Pro (when they themselves aren't a dealer and don't service/support C4 systems)

If you you how to develop drivers yourself.   Would it be worth $100 for an hour or two to walk me through what you know? 

I would think the C4 community would be very welcoming to have someone like myself who is excited about Control4 and is eager to either set up a mutually beneficial work arrangement to get a copy of Composer Pro or is willing to pay someone to help learn how to develop drivers! 

 

youre wasting your time with the people on this board. they dont want to help you.