DS2-Mini: Poor Quality of Night Mode

[eggzlot]

52 minutes ago, Don Cohen said:

Appreciate the posts and pictures.  Understood about the Klein tools.  I was just getting frustrated earlier, and hadn't taken a careful look at how they would be used.  In any case, it won't cost me anything to just disconnect it and see how it works in my dark theater room.

I don't know, maybe I'm expecting too much from the DS2, but it just looks so crappy compared to the Luma bullet cams.  And combined with the "Poor Connection" error, something just seems funky.  With a little luck, my testing tomorrow will demonstrate better performance with a different cable.  That would at least provide a relatively easy fix, although a bit of a hassle.

Use an injector too in your tests.  Poe switches have only so much power.  Not every port can be filled w a Poe device 

[Don Cohen]

9 hours ago, eggzlot said:

Use an injector too in your tests.  Poe switches have only so much power.  Not every port can be filled w a Poe device 

Interesting. I don't have an injector to try, but see a Ubiquiti one for $12.59 on Amazon. High ratings.  Or would a different brand/unit be recommended?  I guess there's no issue with "too much" power, since it would be coming out of a POE switch to begin with?

So even if my "indoor" test, with a short cable, doesn't show an improved night mode, you're saying that adding a POE injector to the mix might do the trick (assuming that inadequate power is the root cause of my problems)?

Thanks.

[dhendriksen]

Interesting. I don't have an injector to try, but see a Ubiquiti one for $12.59 on Amazon. High ratings.  Or would a different brand/unit be recommended?  I guess there's no issue with "too much" power, since it would be coming out of a POE switch to begin with?
So even if my "indoor" test, with a short cable, doesn't show an improved night mode, you're saying that adding a POE injector to the mix might do the trick (assuming that inadequate power is the root cause of my problems)?
Thanks.

I’m not a PoE or network expert, but I know my Ubiquiti WAP’s had a proprietary PoE injector. I also know there is PoE and PoE+. Don’t know the difference, but my switch automatically gives the device what it asks for (I think) and my DS2 is getting PoE+.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Don Cohen]

20 minutes ago, dhendriksen said:

I’m not a PoE or network expert, but I know my Ubiquiti WAP’s had a proprietary PoE injector. I also know there is PoE and PoE+. Don’t know the difference, but my switch automatically gives the device what it asks for (I think) and my DS2 is getting PoE+.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yet another interesting post.  Did some quick reading, POE+ delivers more power than POE.

I logged into my Switch, and here's what it shows.  The DS2 is plugged into Port 5.

I haven't yet learned what "Class" indicates, but it is Class 0 vs Class 4 for 2 other devices drawing power.

Does this give any clues?  Would an external POE Injector (Ubiquiti or other) still be needed/useful for testing, based on this data?

Edited to Add:

The Data sheet for the DS2-Mini shows:

PoE 802.3af (Class 0 - 12.95W) or 12VDC

 

[eggzlot]

3 minutes ago, Don Cohen said:

Yet another interesting post.  Did some quick reading, POE+ delivers more power than POE.

I logged into my Switch, and here's what it shows.  The DS2 is plugged into Port 5.

I haven't yet learned what "Class" indicates, but it is Class 0 vs Class 4 for 2 other devices drawing power.

Does this give any clues?  Would an external POE Injector (Ubiquiti or other) still be needed/useful for testing, based on this data?

 

https://www.control4.com/docs/product/ds2-door-station/data-sheet/english/revision/D/ds2-door-station-data-sheet-rev-d.pdf

Says its Class 0 and only needs 12.95W

I dont know Araknis well.  I have a Cisco 28 port PoE Switch, any switch can deliver power (so there are not specific PoE only ports) but the entire thing can only give off a certain Watt of power across all ports.  Stupid math equation, but if the max was 28 watts, i could put 1 28 watt device on there are 28 devices each pulling 1 watt, if that makes sense.

So it comes down to math, how much total wattage can your switch produce, and how much wattage is plugged in.  Before I learned this I had too many PoE devices on 1 switch and things would randomly fall offline.  I rebuilt my network, I added rack mounted devices such as: https://www.amazon.com/WS-GPOE-12-48v120w-gigabit-Ethernet-Injector-Passive/dp/B00ENUHQEQ/ref=sr_1_4?crid=3H8HQBFT2ZCCJ&keywords=texas+wifi+poe+injector&qid=1574256808&sprefix=texas+wifi+%2Caps%2C120&sr=8-4 and I pretty much take most of the PoE away from the switch, and as I grew my network I was able to get cheaper dumb non PoE switches for what its worth.  Less headache, less hassle.

Your devices seem to be putting out low watts, so I do not think you are maxed out on the power the switch can provide but I am not 100% certain.

If you are going to buy an injector buy one that is "PoE 802.3af" compliant.  

Even if the injector isn't the answer here, having an injector, the klein tools, etc at home in your kit only helps. I am sure you have a hammer, screw driver set, wrenches, etc in your house.  Once you start to get DIY with home networks, you need to start to have spare parts and testing tools laying around so when things go south you can do some quick A/B testing to try and eliminate any potential issues

I'll revert back though - good or bad, C4 is a dealer based system.  Why not ask your dealer who sold you the Arankis, Luma and DS2?  These are all basically CI hardware.  Usually good dealers will only sell hardware they know well so they can quickly set up, know it will work, and move on.  So I'd assume they have an Arankis/Luma/DS2 project out in the wild other than yours?

[Don Cohen]

2 minutes ago, eggzlot said:

https://www.control4.com/docs/product/ds2-door-station/data-sheet/english/revision/D/ds2-door-station-data-sheet-rev-d.pdf

Says its Class 0 and only needs 12.95W

I dont know Araknis well.  I have a Cisco 28 port PoE Switch, any switch can deliver power (so there are not specific PoE only ports) but the entire thing can only give off a certain Watt of power across all ports.  Stupid math equation, but if the max was 28 watts, i could put 1 28 watt device on there are 28 devices each pulling 1 watt, if that makes sense.

So it comes down to math, how much total wattage can your switch produce, and how much wattage is plugged in.  Before I learned this I had too many PoE devices on 1 switch and things would randomly fall offline.  I rebuilt my network, I added rack mounted devices such as: https://www.amazon.com/WS-GPOE-12-48v120w-gigabit-Ethernet-Injector-Passive/dp/B00ENUHQEQ/ref=sr_1_4?crid=3H8HQBFT2ZCCJ&keywords=texas+wifi+poe+injector&qid=1574256808&sprefix=texas+wifi+%2Caps%2C120&sr=8-4 and I pretty much take most of the PoE away from the switch, and as I grew my network I was able to get cheaper dumb non PoE switches for what its worth.  Less headache, less hassle.

Your devices seem to be putting out low watts, so I do not think you are maxed out on the power the switch can provide but I am not 100% certain.

If you are going to buy an injector buy one that is "PoE 802.3af" compliant.  

Even if the injector isn't the answer here, having an injector, the klein tools, etc at home in your kit only helps. I am sure you have a hammer, screw driver set, wrenches, etc in your house.  Once you start to get DIY with home networks, you need to start to have spare parts and testing tools laying around so when things go south you can do some quick A/B testing to try and eliminate any potential issues

I'll revert back though - good or bad, C4 is a dealer based system.  Why not ask your dealer who sold you the Arankis, Luma and DS2?  These are all basically CI hardware.  Usually good dealers will only sell hardware they know well so they can quickly set up, know it will work, and move on.  So I'd assume they have an Arankis/Luma/DS2 project out in the wild other than yours?

Thanks for the detailed reply.  Good point about having those tools available for general purposes.

I'm in a somewhat unique position.  I actually work for the dealer, starting earlier this year (post retirement, second career).  I'm in a somewhat distant location from the dealer showroom, so my home was set up with Control4 home automation, so I can demo to potential customers in my area.  They did the initial setup, when I knew essentially nothing about this stuff, but because I'm tech-oriented to begin with, have been trying to manage, tweak and troubleshoot on my own since then.

I am wanting to avoid using their resources for me, which would be pulling them away from regular customers, so I'm trying to figure out as much as I can on my own.  It's also a good learning experience.  They are certainly available to help if I call on them, and it may come to that.  But I'd rather handle as much as I can on my own, and genuinely appreciate all the help that has provided in this forum.

To the matter at hand, possibly stupid question: the DS2 needs 12.95W, per their Data Sheet.  The Switch indicates that it's putting out 2.5W.  I don't know if there are upticks in the draw needed, or if this would suggest that the DS2 isn't getting what it needs.

[eggzlot]

39 minutes ago, Don Cohen said:

Thanks for the detailed reply.  Good point about having those tools available for general purposes.

I'm in a somewhat unique position.  I actually work for the dealer, starting earlier this year (post retirement, second career).  I'm in a somewhat distant location from the dealer showroom, so my home was set up with Control4 home automation, so I can demo to potential customers in my area.  They did the initial setup, when I knew essentially nothing about this stuff, but because I'm tech-oriented to begin with, have been trying to manage, tweak and troubleshoot on my own since then.

I am wanting to avoid using their resources for me, which would be pulling them away from regular customers, so I'm trying to figure out as much as I can on my own.  It's also a good learning experience.  They are certainly available to help if I call on them, and it may come to that.  But I'd rather handle as much as I can on my own, and genuinely appreciate all the help that has provided in this forum.

To the matter at hand, possibly stupid question: the DS2 needs 12.95W, per their Data Sheet.  The Switch indicates that it's putting out 2.5W.  I don't know if there are upticks in the draw needed, or if this would suggest that the DS2 isn't getting what it needs.

to your last point, that is why I suggested an injector that is known to output the proper power.  maybe somewhere in this thread you posted your araknis model # but again I have not touched Arankis, DS2 or Luma hardware.  Read the specs on your switch, what can it output?  Some have limits per port, overall, etc.  Also that screen shot shows power limit type and priority.  Make the DS2 high priority.  what "power limit" options are there?  Before I got my rack mounted injector to grow my system larger, I made a touchscreen high priority as it kept dropping off line and that did seem to help its connection to keep it online and stable.

Unique situation or not, if you are working for the dealer, I would suspect you are on the hook for selling/installing the hardware to customers.  So you shouldn't mind asking them a question where they may have the answer in 2 seconds.  Again if they are a dealer of any volume, and sold/gave you the gear, I am sure they have deployed this set up before?  I have a manager, I ask him questions when I hit a road block.

[ILoveC4]

Just noticed that I have a different username when I'm logged in via Tapatalk. That's odd.

[Don Cohen]

OK, things have gotten interesting.

I removed the DS2 from the Front Door, and plugged it into the same Port # 5, which the other cable was using.  With lights on, everything looked fine.

I then turned the lights off, and the image was initially quite dark, but after a few seconds I heard a 'click' from the DS2, and the image brightened dramatically.  The Photo is in my theater room, with virtually no light in the room.  This is a *huge* improvement!

I've also posted a Screen Capture showing the POE readings for the Switch once the DS2 went into Night Mode.  Output Voltage remained the same as 53.8, while the Output Current went from 48 to 55 mA, and the Output Watts went from 2.5 to 2.9.

So clearly there is nothing wrong with the DS2, and its low light capability is more than acceptable.

So it could be the Cable, or its Connectors, or perhaps the length being too long to transmit the needed power.  I guess I can replace the connectors first, and see what happens.  Adding a POE injector might also be needed to fully resolve the source of the problem, if new connectors doesn't solve it.

The last option would be to re-run a new cable, but it may come to that.

Any additional ideas welcome, but I'm thrilled to finally be making some progress.

[eggzlot]

37 minutes ago, Don Cohen said:

OK, things have gotten interesting.

I removed the DS2 from the Front Door, and plugged it into the same Port # 5, which the other cable was using.  With lights on, everything looked fine.

I then turned the lights off, and the image was initially quite dark, but after a few seconds I heard a 'click' from the DS2, and the image brightened dramatically.  The Photo is in my theater room, with virtually no light in the room.  This is a *huge* improvement!

I've also posted a Screen Capture showing the POE readings for the Switch once the DS2 went into Night Mode.  Output Voltage remained the same as 53.8, while the Output Current went from 48 to 55 mA, and the Output Watts went from 2.5 to 2.9.

So clearly there is nothing wrong with the DS2, and its low light capability is more than acceptable.

So it could be the Cable, or its Connectors, or perhaps the length being too long to transmit the needed power.  I guess I can replace the connectors first, and see what happens.  Adding a POE injector might also be needed to fully resolve the source of the problem, if new connectors doesn't solve it.

The last option would be to re-run a new cable, but it may come to that.

Any additional ideas welcome, but I'm thrilled to finally be making some progress.

the click is likely the mechanic IR Cut Filter moving which is a good sign https://www.networkwebcams.co.uk/blog/2012/09/18/day-night-switching-ir-cut-filters/

PoE 802.3af can carry power for 100m/328'.  Not sure how long your run is but that is a fairly decent run length for most residential installs.

if its not the DS2 and its not the switch, its the cable.  If you are good at crimping just redo both ends, if that doesnt work, good chance there is an issue with the wire itself.  expensive tools can pinpoint where on the line there is a crimp, etc.

you mention this is a part time job or something - maybe ask the dealer if they will reimburse you for buying these tools - you'll need them at your house and also onsite with clients.  the cheaper Klein tools I pointed to will alert you of crossover aka you crimped and got some wires mixed up.  If the wire is bad they will tell you but it will not pinpoint where in the wire there is an issue.  nor will it measure PoE power.  the more expensive tools (Klein or even Fluke at that point) can give you that level of diagnostics.

[ILoveC4]

It’s also probably worth noting that camera is going to work WAY BETTER in a pitch black INDOOR environment than a pitch black OUTDOOR environment. 
 

In the first pics you posted it looked like there was nothing close to the camera. I’d be curious if you’re as excited when you point it straight out an open window. 

[Don Cohen]

1 hour ago, eggzlot said:

the click is likely the mechanic IR Cut Filter moving which is a good sign https://www.networkwebcams.co.uk/blog/2012/09/18/day-night-switching-ir-cut-filters/

PoE 802.3af can carry power for 100m/328'.  Not sure how long your run is but that is a fairly decent run length for most residential installs.

if its not the DS2 and its not the switch, its the cable.  If you are good at crimping just redo both ends, if that doesnt work, good chance there is an issue with the wire itself.  expensive tools can pinpoint where on the line there is a crimp, etc.

you mention this is a part time job or something - maybe ask the dealer if they will reimburse you for buying these tools - you'll need them at your house and also onsite with clients.  the cheaper Klein tools I pointed to will alert you of crossover aka you crimped and got some wires mixed up.  If the wire is bad they will tell you but it will not pinpoint where in the wire there is an issue.  nor will it measure PoE power.  the more expensive tools (Klein or even Fluke at that point) can give you that level of diagnostics.

Thanks.  My run is perhaps 50 feet, so I should be okay, at least in theory!

I just replaced the connector at the Front Door (it's a really tight space, and the previous cable installation was somewhat kinked).  It's daytime, so I can't be sure, but I just covered the whole faceplate with my hand, and after about 10 seconds, I heard that same click, and the display seemed to switch modes.  So I'm cautiously optimistic that this may have fixed it.

I am still getting a recurring "Poor Connection" error with the Intercom Anywhere App, which makes me a bit nervous.  Guess I'll find out tonight.

2 minutes ago, ILoveC4 said:

It’s also probably worth noting that camera is going to work WAY BETTER in a pitch black INDOOR environment than a pitch black OUTDOOR environment. 
 

In the first pics you posted it looked like there was nothing close to the camera. I’d be curious if you’re as excited when you point it straight out an open window. 

You could be right - time will tell...

[eggzlot]

10 minutes ago, Don Cohen said:

Thanks.  My run is perhaps 50 feet, so I should be okay, at least in theory!

I just replaced the connector at the Front Door (it's a really tight space, and the previous cable installation was somewhat kinked).  It's daytime, so I can't be sure, but I just covered the whole faceplate with my hand, and after about 10 seconds, I heard that same click, and the display seemed to switch modes.  So I'm cautiously optimistic that this may have fixed it.

I am still getting a recurring "Poor Connection" error with the Intercom Anywhere App, which makes me a bit nervous.  Guess I'll find out tonight.

You could be right - time will tell...

cant speak for the IA app as I've never used it.

but if you are hearing the clicking and you did not hear the clicking before, then that issue may be solved.  

[Don Cohen]

5 minutes ago, eggzlot said:

cant speak for the IA app as I've never used it.

but if you are hearing the clicking and you did not hear the clicking before, then that issue may be solved.  

Well, I was never out there in the evening when the light changed, so really have no idea if it clicked or not.  If this doesn't fix it, I think I'll have to get the dealer out to just run a new cable.

[Don Cohen]

So I changed the ethernet connector at the Front Door.  Results: the bottom line is I think I was expecting too much of the DS2-Mini, thinking it should provide Night Mode quality comparable to the Luma Cameras.  It doesn't.  But I have learned a few things about how it does operate.

The first 2 captures are from my phone, both with the Porch Light Off, and quite dark out there.  The first one with no one out there, and the second with me standing out there.  Huge difference here, as ILoveC4 suggested, that with nothing close to the DS2, it's not doing much.  I do find it interesting that when I step out there, the *entire* scene lights up dramatically, not just my form.  If only I could get that picture quality without my being out there, I'd be quite satisfied.

I also checked the Switch's Power output, and Night Mode now showed it putting out 84mA and 4.5W (compared to 48mA and 2.5W during the day).  So power seems to be delivered appropriately.  I included a screen capture here as well to document this.

The last screen capture is from the Luma NVR Interface on my PC.  For whatever reason (whichever stream each device uses, which I haven't yet defined), the DS2 does look a fair amount better there, than with my Phone's App, or on the T3, but it is still nowhere near as good as the Luma IP cameras).  It does look a little better than before I changed the connector, but not a big change.

I think I'm done chasing this.  Would a Cable replacement make a difference?  Possibly, but I'm inclined to think it doubtful.

Appreciate all the input and suggestions I received here.  Perhaps this will be of help to someone else with similar observations.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 14, 2021 by Don Cohen
images removed - out of space

[ILoveC4]

Yeah, the DS2 camera is just for convenience in my mind. I don’t count on that footage for anything.