Keypad Dimmer Troubleshooting

[Time2Jet]

I just installed a bunch of additional lighting devices in my own home and it is the first time I've used a KD.  For whatever reason, the load this particular one handles is coming on randomly (I keep asking "who turned that on"?).  I've checked programming to see if that load is in any ALS, and it's not.  I have the other buttons programmed as keypads, so I just don't know why the load is the only thing giving me problems.  All of my other KD's are working fine.  Anyone think of anything?  It's on a 4-way and this is the actual load switch.  I had pico's on the other old Caseta dimmer that used to handle this load, so the other 3 switches are just bypassed like you would with a Pico.

Also, pretty dumb question, but can I use a KC verses KA in a 3-way situation?  I have a few that I'd like to use for enhancing zigbee versus just plain KA's in a particular 3 way scenario.

Thanks!

[JSTRONG]

Did you check programming for the actual load? Maybe something is calling this light to turn on outside of your scenes

Also check for connections from other keypads

 

 

 

[Time2Jet]

Did you check programming for the actual load? Maybe something is calling this light to turn on outside of your scenes
Also check for connections from other keypads
 
 
 

@cartnj Thanks

Nothing is bound. Also appears nowhere in Programming.

It’s so strange. Wonder if it’s wired I correctly. There are so many wires in that box. I use yellow to the red traveler. The rest is common practice.

So weird.


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[dcovach]

37 minutes ago, time2jet said:

@cartnj Thanks

Nothing is bound. Also appears nowhere in Programming.

It’s so strange. Wonder if it’s wired I correctly. There are so many wires in that box. I use yellow to the red traveler. The rest is common practice.

So weird.


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It's probably wired wrong, however I can't see what you did and neither am I an electrician (but I have re-tro fitted these for myself and showed a few electricians on how to do it).  The goal is to convert ONE switch box for the KD so that the other locations DO NOT have any ability to control the light.   Close those circuits so they do not do any switching anymore. You should have a spare wire traveling across the other switch boxes (traveler).  Use that traveler with the yellow wire on the KD.

[Time2Jet]

Right Dan. But, if it were wired wrong, I’d think there’d be other issues rather than randomly turning the load on (a few times a day).

This is a 4-way setup with this particular switch being the entrance from the panel and out to the load.

Right now and until I add KA or KC’s all of the other 3 switches on this 4-way are wired closed and the or IOU’s Caseta summer worked great.




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[msgreenf]

Right Dan. But, if it were wired wrong, I’d think there’d be other issues rather than randomly turning the load on (a few times a day).

This is a 4-way setup with this particular switch being the entrance from the panel and out to the load.

Right now and until I add KA or KC’s all of the other 3 switches on this 4-way are wired closed and the or IOU’s Caseta summer worked great.




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The wiring diagram is included. I will bet money something is wrong cause that is a confusing setup as a 4 way.

[dcovach]

8 hours ago, time2jet said:

Right Dan. But, if it were wired wrong, I’d think there’d be other issues rather than randomly turning the load on (a few times a day).

This is a 4-way setup with this particular switch being the entrance from the panel and out to the load.

Right now and until I add KA or KC’s all of the other 3 switches on this 4-way are wired closed and the or IOU’s Caseta summer worked great.




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Ya, like@msgreenf said, this sounds confusing. Something isn't right. I hope you're not going to blame the way electricity works either. Lol. Thousands, maybe even trillions, of these types of lighting are installed and they work if wired properly.

You can only use one 3rd gen c4 load controlling device (KD) in the circuit with 3rd gen aux keypads only (for 3-4-5 way). Nothing else. No other brands of lighting either. Not even gen 1 or 2 light controlling devices (or keypads) can be used with 3rd gen either for 3 way.

If you tie together the necessary wires (or sometimes cap) in the other switch boxes in order to achieve one location doing all the stitching, and the light still turns on automatically, then maybe there's one more switch box somewhere else that you missed. Or your wiring isn't as "right" as you think.

Since you mention no aux are installed yet, you should be putting a cover/faceplate on the other switch boxes in the related circuit. No configurable keypads (KC) can be used for load switching in any circumstance. Those are purely set up for programming.

I highly recommend you get an electrician involved and show the wiring diagram. Don't make yourself liable or reliable for a profession you don't have a ticket in.

I'm only trying to constructively criticize your efforts.  This is for your own safety and others.





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[Cyknight]

Hmm so you have a Keypad Dimmer, in a multi way with Auxiliary keypads.

If you're seeing random turn on/off my first thought would be that there's a wiring issue between the Dimmer and the aux units - OR there is interference being picked up along the wiring for them I've seen that - rare but I've had two situations over the years).

Could also be a load compatibility issue, or jsut a plain pad Keypad Dimmer (or stuck button on it)

On the question if you can use configurable keypads instead of Aux ones - sure, alternatively you can get the C4 switches and use the as '2-buttons' if all you want is control over that load anyway (cheaper than a true keypad).

I'll state that you can indeed not mix and match all devices in the path of a multi-way, but depending on (other) wiring, it's NOT impossible you can create some sort of combination of keypads and aux switches in the location of existing 'regular' switches. It's not quite as black and white as some of the posts above (which just makes it more complex to be honest)

1 hour ago, dcovach said:

Not even gen 1 or 2 light controlling devices (or keypads) can be used with 3rd gen either for 3 way.

Huh? If you mean you cant use the aux keypad with gen 1 or 2 C4 lighting (or other lighting devices) then true. But you can certainly use an old 3 button or similar to control a light load anywhere else.

1 hour ago, dcovach said:

I highly recommend you get an electrician involved and show the wiring diagram. Don't make yourself liable or reliable for a profession you don't have a ticket in.

I'd second this though. Sound you need to get this looked at.

[dcovach]

23 minutes ago, Cyknight said:

Huh? If you mean you cant use the aux keypad with gen 1 or 2 C4 lighting (or other lighting devices) then true.

Yes

Quote

But you can certainly use an old 3 button or similar to control a light load anywhere else.

Thank you. Yes, but in the context of me ASSUMING there's a mixing of C4 /other smart devices/OEM switches based on a vague description of the problem (or an mis-understanding on my part), I did not detail every option available but I did detail other reasons there could be unexpected behavior based this or incorrect wiring.    I would not recommend assuming that the C4 device is faulty (or incapable) when it appears there is a DIY effort with a 1st time C4 owner WITHOUT an electrician involved and a C4 dealer ID with access to tech support in case it really is an RMA issue.

Quote

I'd second this though. Sound you need to get this looked at.

Yes. 

Disclaimer, don't DIY electricity

[Time2Jet]

There is only the KD at the load. The other 3 locations are capped and have a Pico mounted. (Until I get this right).


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[Time2Jet]

9 hours ago, dcovach said:

Quote

You can only use one 3rd gen c4 load controlling device (KD) in the circuit with 3rd gen aux keypads only (for 3-4-5 way). Nothing else. No other brands of lighting either. Not even gen 1 or 2 light controlling devices (or keypads) can be used with 3rd gen either for 3 way.

This is confusing Dan.  It sort of conflicts with what Cy is saying, but I'm probably reading this wrong.  To be clear, this KD replaced a Caseta Dimmer for this load (it's in my foyer next to my front door).  When it was Caseta (and nothing is changed yet, other than replacing the Caseta Dimmer with a KD) the other 3 switches that controlled that load were tied off and Pico remotes were installed and programmed against the Caseta Dimmer.  I admit that the electrician that wired my home when I built it AND the guy I had installing the Caseta switches weren't the best at their trade (you live and learn).  I don't like electricity, in fact I am scared to death of it.  I don't attempt to do much with it, other than replace and outlet/switch/install a fan etc. (with the breaker off... and triple checked).  Assuming all of that, the KD could be wired incorrectly, OR it might just need at least one KA installed since it's wired as a 3-4-5 way (whatever the case).  That said, Cy mentions using a 3rd Gen SW for programming (2 buttons only)... versus a KC (or KA) (I'm trying to repeat Zigbee at these switch locations).  The way I read what you say is that I cannot do anything other than a KA at the non-load control locations? It's confusing, but I could be reading it wrong.
 

Quote

 

I highly recommend you get an electrician involved and show the wiring diagram. Don't make yourself liable or reliable for a profession you don't have a ticket in.

I'm only trying to constructively criticize your efforts.  This is for your own safety and others.

 

I'm still going to try to get to the bottom of this, but I definitely just hired a licensed electrician that talks the talk to install the last 30 switches.  You know I don't mind the criticism.  Yours is always constructive.




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[lippavisual]

For 3/4 way situations, your choices are auxiliary switches, a switch Or dimmer with load control disabled and programmed, configurable keypads.

Gen 3 and Gen 1/2’s can be mixed too.  But if they are in the same room, stick to one generation. 

[Time2Jet]

That’s helpful@lippavisual

As I reread Dan’s post... I realized he’s saying “only one load device” in a 3-4 way. I’m so sorry, I was misunderstanding and thinking he was saying a KD or whatever & ONLY KA’s (no switches, etc). I get it now. Only manage the load from one of any gen3 load handling device, then KA’s, KC’s, KD’s or SW’s so long as they aren’t handling the load. (Which gens are mixable and how seems debatable). This is all very good to know, though in my own project all will be gen3.


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[msgreenf]

No switch's.

[dcovach]

There is only the KD at the load. The other 3 locations are capped and have a Pico mounted. (Until I get this right).


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Here's a quick vid by a user on this forum. It explains how a KA (aux) is wired to a KD. KA functionality is explained too. Pico doesn't function the same as a KA so I'm not sure what your terminology means vs what your current wiring still looks like. Show us a pic?.

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[Time2Jet]

This is great. Thanks.

 

What I’m saying Dan is that prior to me installing the KD, I had an electrician (I use that term loosely as it pertains to him now that I uncover his blunders) install a whole house full of Caseta. Starting two weeks ago and over the next month, I am replacing every switch in my home with C4 gen3 lighting. I have approximately 6 instances of 3-way or more circuits. I have myself completed replacement of 10 of the 63 switches so far, one of those was a 3-way (true 3-way, as opposed you 4-5way, etc). No issues. All works famously. Until... the load from hell.

 

This one is a 4-way. It was mechanical originally and my electrician installed the Caseta dimmer at the load box and 3 Picos at the other control locations for this load. I will confess that I have no idea what’s behind those 3 Picos. I haven’t removed them from the wall. I did take out the Caseta dimmer and replace it with a KD. Tested great as a load control. Programmed buttons all perfectly as planned. Then things started getting weird. The load lights come on (never off) and to a dim state or a full on bright state with no event whatsoever. (Events = button press, or programming). First thing I checked was system programming and nothing seemed awry. Then I checked bindings. Nothing seems awry. Then thought through the wiring of the KD. Neutral to neutral, common to common, hot to load, yellow to traveler. The only thing I can think of is that the common and hot (both black) are backwards. I’m pulling it tomorrow to triple check. I thought I was careful and precise, but I had 6 switches hanging that day and had company coming. So I could have rushed that last one. I had been so meticulous, but who knows.

 

For you all with an electrical background, could this cause this particular issue? If it is reversed (common/hot) I would think it would cause the switch contacts to stay closed, keeping the load energized. I’m ready for the flamethrowers... I overstepped my abilities.

 

I’m appreciative of everyone providing insight. I realize that electric is for professionals. This seemed like simple stuff and I understand the basic concepts of circuitry. I’ve been installing switches for 40 years. Not as an electrician, but as a homeowner.

 

Watching the vid again now. Thanks[mention=134353]dcovach[/mention].

 

 

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[dcovach]

12 hours ago, time2jet said:

That’s helpful@lippavisual

As I reread Dan’s post... I realized he’s saying “only one load device” in a 3-4 way. I’m so sorry, I was misunderstanding and thinking he was saying a KD or whatever & ONLY KA’s (no switches, etc). I get it now. Only manage the load from one of any gen3 load handling device, then KA’s, KC’s, KD’s or SW’s so long as they aren’t handling the load. (Which gens are mixable and how seems debatable). This is all very good to know, though in my own project all will be gen3.


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Almost.  Gen 1/ 2 explanation is irrelevant right now, however, you will not be able to use a KA with them.  

 

Scenario 1 - Gen 3 - No C4 system running (programming will not work)

Assume the C4 system is unplugged or not even installed yet.  That's right.  No stinkin' zigbee to worry about.  For the 3 way circuit to work in this scenario you can install only one C4 light controlling device in the box where the hot, load, neutral and ground wire is. You can't use any other load controlling C4 device at the other locations (in this scenario).  Once again, Gen 3 load controlling includes KD, C4 switch, FFD, and ADP.  If there are multiple locations physically wired for switching in that circuit, remove those switches and twist any wires together at those boxes so that you're basically converting the circuit back to a 2 way between the light and the C4 switch.  Some call it a 1 way circuit.  Install KA's properly at the other locations.  Once again, you will not be able to use anything other than a KA in this scenario.

Scenario 2 - Gen 3 - C4 system running (programming will work)

Lets say you don't want KA's because they're "dumb".  You can't program them.  At least you don't need the system running but other than that, they're kinda useless for anything other than for working with the load controlling device.  You could use a KC but it is a "lone ranger".  It needs a hot, ground, and neutral wire.  It has nothing to do with the light circuit.  Its programmable and needs the system running and thats right, a good zigbee mesh.

Scenario 5 billion and 74 - Gen whatever ( I may have missed a scenario in between and may word something a bit incorrect below or above but I don't care anymore )

At this point you can install lots of other C4 load controlling switch types or non load controlling (gen 1/2 keypads) in those other locations (if you have the required wires available) but not ALL types of the past (some gen 1 /2).  There's some exceptions but I'm not going to get into all of them.  It's irrelevant to you.  I object.  Order in the court. Whatever.  Stop arguing.  For the most part, the devices in the other locations of the circuit should be converted to  "keypads" or else you will be energizing the load wire for no good reason when you press the top button on those.  This is achieved with a single click in the right checkbox in the light properties.  You can still program them whether or not they're converted to keypads, but you need the system running for the programming to work and a GOOD ZIGBEE MESH!!!

[dcovach]

28 minutes ago, time2jet said:

This is great. Thanks.

 

What I’m saying Dan is that prior to me installing the KD, I had an electrician (I use that term loosely as it pertains to him now that I uncover his blunders) install a whole house full of Caseta. Starting two weeks ago and over the next month, I am replacing every switch in my home with C4 gen3 lighting. I have approximately 6 instances of 3-way or more circuits. I have myself completed replacement of 10 of the 63 switches so far, one of those was a 3-way (true 3-way, as opposed you 4-5way, etc). No issues. All works famously. Until... the load from hell.

 

This one is a 4-way. It was mechanical originally and my electrician installed the Caseta dimmer at the load box and 3 Picos at the other control locations for this load. I will confess that I have no idea what’s behind those 3 Picos. I haven’t removed them from the wall. I did take out the Caseta dimmer and replace it with a KD. Tested great as a load control. Programmed buttons all perfectly as planned. Then things started getting weird. The load lights come on (never off) and to a dim state or a full on bright state with no event whatsoever. (Events = button press, or programming). First thing I checked was system programming and nothing seemed awry. Then I checked bindings. Nothing seems awry. Then thought through the wiring of the KD. Neutral to neutral, common to common, hot to load, yellow to traveler. The only thing I can think of is that the common and hot (both black) are backwards. I’m pulling it tomorrow to triple check. I thought I was careful and precise, but I had 6 switches hanging that day and had company coming. So I could have rushed that last one. I had been so meticulous, but who knows.

 

For you all with an electrical background, could this cause this particular issue? If it is reversed (common/hot) I would think it would cause the switch contacts to stay closed, keeping the load energized. I’m ready for the flamethrowers... I overstepped my abilities.

 

I’m appreciative of everyone providing insight. I realize that electric is for professionals. This seemed like simple stuff and I understand the basic concepts of circuitry. I’ve been installing switches for 40 years. Not as an electrician, but as a homeowner.

 

Watching the vid again now. Thanks[mention=134353]dcovach[/mention].

 

 

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Is there some kind of programming still happening with Pico's?  I'm almost certain the pico's in that circuit are not going to be wired compatibly to work with that KD.  If you can teach an electrician how the C4 lighting is supposed to work (2 way concept), they should be able to quickly and safely verify each wire in the circuit for retro-fitting the C4 stuff.  Guessing is dangerous to you and could damage the C4 switches. 

Key phrases to use for your electrician  "Please look at the C4 wiring diagram.  Please convert the circuit back to a 2 way in the best switch box (sometimes there's only 1 option) and assume I want to put cover-plates on the other switch locations (if he looks at you funny tell him thats where the "aux  or dummies" are going.  Which one is the traditional "traveller wire" that runs across to the other switch boxes?  Which one is neutral etc....?"

Ground is easy

 

 

[Time2Jet]

Picos are not wired. They’re battery operated programmable (via the Caseta bridge bindings) very small remotes. These once were programmed (in Caseta only and never bound in C4) to control the Caseta dimmer that the KD replaced. The drivers are still in my project, but again never bound to anything ...only to that replaced Caseta dimmer and only in the Caseta bridge. Make sense? Caseta’s a different animal. It’s great, but it’s a whole independent system in addition to it integrating well. But now you’ve really got me thinking. Hmmmmm? I doubt this very much, but maybe I should remove them from the bridge and if I decide to use them later as remotes for “anything”, reprogram them using proper C4 bindings. Thanks Dan. Already too much of your time spent on this one. I completely understand what you’ve explained about mixing gens, etc. not that I have that scenario here, but I need to understand that too.


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[dcovach]

Just trying to put this to bed.  The C4 lighting stuff isn't as easy as most think.

[ILoveC4]

Don’t hook up the traveler until you put C4 products in the other locations and know how they’re wired. Just wire it up as if it were single pole for now, and then when your electrician gets there have him/her (never seen a female electrician but must be PC these days) wire up the “auxiliary” locations. 
 

My preference is to use keypads in the other locations, but that’s because I want LED feedback, different button options and programming capability. 

[lippavisual]

13 hours ago, msgreenf said:

No switch's.

They can be used when you disable the load.

[Time2Jet]

Don’t hook up the traveler until you put C4 products in the other locations and know how they’re wired. Just wire it up as if it were single pole for now, and then when your electrician gets there have him/her (never seen a female electrician but must be PC these days) wire up the “auxiliary” locations. 
 
My preference is to use keypads in the other locations, but that’s because I want LED feedback, different button options and programming capability. 

Funny.

This is very interesting and it makes some sense. The pulse type signal that the traveler (yellow) is listening for could literally be the issue. I got an alert at 12:47am that the lights came on again. I feel like it could have to do with ever so slight system (electrical) changes anywhere in the panel (ie furnace kicked on). Tell me I’m nuts?


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[msgreenf]

4 minutes ago, time2jet said:

Tell me I’m nuts?

maybe for other reasons but not this one

[msgreenf]

52 minutes ago, lippavisual said:

They can be used when you disable the load.

good point