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time2jet

Keypad Dimmer Troubleshooting

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Thanks everyone.  I'm really sorry I started so much debate, but I really learned a ton in this thread, and mostly about gen mixing, etc.  Everyone was basically saying the same things, then others would further clarify.  @dcovach posted a vid from a user regarding wiring a 3-way and it caused me to triple check my work, which was all correct... EXCEPT and per the suggestion of  @ILoveC4  (Thank you! ...AND all of you that commented), I capped of the disconnected the traveler and capped off the yellow at the KD and the circuit's traveler until such time as I start to add the "Aux" locations (debatable what I will use... (I have a bunch of KA's and KC's... need the zigbee the KC provides at one of the "Aux" control locations for the 4-Way.  I can't be 100% sure, because it's only been a few hours, but I would normally have had it mysteriously turn on at least once by now.  It hasn't.  Let's consider that fixed (fingers crossed).  Let's face it, this isn't a typical scenario (install the load switch in a 3-4 way, but not the Aux locations), so it wasn't an easy diagnosis.

Here's where I'm at since this is the first time I've installed/programmed a KD or KC, do I bind the programming to the load or an ALS, or do I just program it?  Here's why I am asking.

Top 2 Gang button is hardwired to dim and turn off and on the load.  Works great. Button 2 is also a 2 gang and it is bound to an ALS to toggle the 6 exterior lights.  I (assume incorrectly) also had it programmed to toggle the lighting scene.  I've removed that.  How it was working before is confusing, but today I removed the programming and just bound the ALS.  I assume if I want to further program off of that particular button (taps, etc) THAT's where I would use programming.  The last two buttons are not bound, but programmed... should I bind them?  And do I want "taps" or "presses" for the main function (toggle a light or scene)?

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Connecting a button to an als scene or another load will also follow the configured led status.  Also depends what you've clicked on button behavior and led behavior.

Programming on a "press or release" will activate instantly (1 second delay for single, double and triple taps) every time you press that same button so consider whether you want that to occur while having a "connection" on the same button. Note: If you try to manually program led status on the same button that has a "connection," you are going to get frustrated. The connection led status will always follow too so your desired led status color wil be challenging to control.

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5-way switches can be brutal.  I have a situation where the load and power are in two separate boxes.  Is that common?  And if that's the case, where do you install the load control?  Has to be at the load location, correct?  Then I'd guess you energize the switch via the local power.  Just seems strange that the breaker for the circuit is in a different box than the load.

I have an electrician coming out.  I'm not touching this, just trying to understand.

 

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3 hours ago, time2jet said:

5-way switches can be brutal.  I have a situation where the load and power are in two separate boxes.  Is that common?  And if that's the case, where do you install the load control?  Has to be at the load location, correct?  Then I'd guess you energize the switch via the local power.  Just seems strange that the breaker for the circuit is in a different box than the load.

I have an electrician coming out.  I'm not touching this, just trying to understand.

 

It isn’t uncommon at all to have that. Just use the travelers to jump either the load or the hot from box to box. 

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@ILoveC4

Your grasp of electricity and circuits is superb. It was your suggestion that slayed the ghost that was turning on my KD load without rhyme or reason.

As for 3-4-5 ways, for the sake of laying out my devices, does the actual load switch need to be at the load box? I have 2 scenarios that I’d love to install a KD at the Aux box and a KA or KC at the load box. I’d you’d share, it’d be greatly appreciated. In the meantime, I’m going to run this through my head a few times based upon what you’ve already shared. There may be something there that translates to this scenario. Thanks always. Sometimes until your challenges you don’t realize you have the capacity to “learn” by listening, rather than attempt via trial and error. Nit the best idea when it comes to electricity.


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1 hour ago, time2jet said:

@ILoveC4

Your grasp of electricity and circuits is superb. It was your suggestion that slayed the ghost that was turning on my KD load without rhyme or reason.

As for 3-4-5 ways, for the sake of laying out my devices, does the actual load switch need to be at the load box? I have 2 scenarios that I’d love to install a KD at the Aux box and a KA or KC at the load box. I’d you’d share, it’d be greatly appreciated. In the meantime, I’m going to run this through my head a few times based upon what you’ve already shared. There may be something there that translates to this scenario. Thanks always. Sometimes until your challenges you don’t realize you have the capacity to “learn” by listening, rather than attempt via trial and error. Nit the best idea when it comes to electricity.


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I’m happy to draw something up tomorrow, but I’m no more than a 2 bit DIY hack. 

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5-Way (Here’s precisely what I have)

 

2 Gang

Box 1 (want KD or KC)

B/W/G - Pwr from Breaker

R/B/W/G - Traveler

 

B/W/G - Single Pole Load to Exterior Lamp (Not related, other than shares power in this box from the breaker).

 

2 Gang

Box 2 (want KD or KC)

B/W/G - Load

R/B/W/G - Traveler

 

Single Gang

Box 3 (KA)

R/B/W/G - Traveler

R/B/W/G - Traveler

 

2 Gang

Box 4 (KC)

R/B/W/G - Traveler

 

R/B/W/G - Traveler for another 3-way.

 

 

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1 hour ago, time2jet said:

5-Way (Here’s precisely what I have)

2 Gang
Box 1 (want KD or KC)
B/W/G - Pwr from Breaker
R/B/W/G - Traveler

B/W/G - Load to Exterior Single (Not Related other than shares power from the breaker).

2 Gang
Box 2 (want KD or KC)
B/W/G - Load
R/B/W/G - Traveler

Single Gang
Box 3 (KA)
R/B/W/G - Traveler
R/B/W/G - Traveler

2 Gang
Box 4 (KC)
R/B/W/G - Traveler

R/B/W/G - Traveler for another 3-way.


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Are you asking how I’d wire that?

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Are you asking how I’d wire that?


Yes. Thank you. I printed your diagrams and am reviewing against what I have.


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Well, I got the majority of the single pole switches installed and programmed (LEDs) are always tricky.

Back to the 3-4-5 ways. I was able to get the load working fine, but I cannot get the KCs to turn back on the load. They work fine to turn it off.

The basics are that there is a traveler rbw to each location I have the reds connected to the yellow at the load switch and then daisy chained outside of the switches. The neutral and hot w/b run through or two each switch. It’s clear that the KCs are only energized when the KD load is on, so that explains why they turn off the load, but cannot turn it back on.

I assume it’s something very simple. I understand that the KCs are simply radios and just need energized to allow for events via binding or programming. This is why I wonder whether the yellow traveler at the KD even needs to run.

Right now leaving the KD I have the yellow attached to what typically would be the red traveler. Since this isn’t a true multi-way, do I need that? I have a feeling the white neutral is the issue. It’s white to white everywhere in the entire circuit, black to black and yellow to red (but again, I’m not running the red through the KCs, just white/black and ground.

Thank you all for the help. As Dan mentioned, C4 (and other smart switches) aren’t necessarily wired like conventional circuits. And the whole RTM or RTKB argument isn’t as relevant as one would think. I can wire KA’s fine. Wiring diagrams for that are everywhere. Cannot find my scenario anywhere.



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Don’t use the yellow unless you’re using an auxiliary keypad. All the configurable keypad needs is power. That’s it. It doesn’t even need to be on the same circuit (I typically keep it that way in case I want to put something else in down the road or for ease of killing power at the breaker).

The only reason you’d use the yellow is with an auxiliary keypad and traditional 3 way wiring. I’ll get you a more thorough response, just haven’t had time to do it. 

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I’m going to mark this thread resolved.

 

Here’s what I learned:

 

1. Conventional switch wiring doesn’t always apply to C4 switch wiring. Especially in multi-way switching and if blending KA’s and KC’s. (Thanks. @dcovach , @msgreenf & especially. @ILoveC4 (who went above and beyond to help!). Great, very smart, tenacious people here. I’m very glad for all of you, and anyone else that contributed.

 

2. If you pick an electrician out of the yellow pages (do they still have those?), odds are he’ll need to talk to a dealer or C4. (Thanks @lippavisual, you were spot on about exorcising the ghost in my KD and both you and Dan mentioning to school an electrician before they embark on installing switches). I ended up not needing to use one for my switches, but I completely understand the struggle one might encounter. And frankly, in defense of a few members that got beaten up pretty badly in some prior threads, the wiring diagrams do not cover multi-location switches well. (A video series would be sweet... hint, Mitch).

 

3. LED’s are tricky. As are committing to engraving. I get we have to help do it for clients, but I’m going to live with mine for a long while until I feel more comfortable with what’s best for the way my family lives.

 

4. I can already tell how much better things work (remotes, motion sensors, wireless contact sensors, relays etc. with this new mesh). I frankly loved my Caseta for the price, especially when @The_Good_Guy taught me how to get C4 to recognize over the 50 device limit of the Caseta driver. I’ll even be keeping Pico’s for table side lamp control, etc for guests. But the C4 lighting, albeit 2.5 times the cost, is very very impressive. I’m happy with the move.

 

Thanks guys.

 

 

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