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More Help with Complicated WHA Situation


Time2Jet

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Before you start throwing darts, yes I do know the definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over again expecting a different outcome. I’m sure Mitch is going to say “how many more times can we go over this?!?! And he’s right, but I’m stubborn and where there’s a will there’s a way. We integrate things that don’t integrate everyday here. It’s part of the challenge.

 

Before you read further, I’m NOT trying to save money, I’m that trying to get something to work the way I want it to. If someone has a good idea of how to meet my needs, I’ll spend the money.

 

So here it is: (Rooms start with *)

 

I’m really struggling with Audio (likely because I am stubborn and won’t go to a matrix/amp... I have reasons stated below).

 

And keep in mind, I think HEOS solves this all, but I’m getting a ton of naysayers. Heos says “quite possibly, but C4 needs to solve”.

 

*****Here’s what I have:

 

#1st 2 Rooms

 

Denon X8500 (3 Zone Capable, two via HDMI) sources include independent TiVo (2), Roku Ultra (2), Samsung BluRay (1) & an EA5.

 

Zone 1 - HDMI to the LR where I have a 7.4.6 sound system hardwired.

 

Zone 2 - HDMI to the MBR where I have a Sonos 5.1 system fed Display Audio via an optical out if the TV to the Playbar.

 

Zone 3 - not used.

 

I’m using the native audio apps from the EA5.

 

#2nd Bedroom & Loft Suite

 

Sonos 5.1 setups. (All wireless, no Ethernet, fed TV audio via optical to Playbars).

 

#Kitchen/All Bathrooms/Laundry/Dining Room/Reading Den/Garage/Patio

 

In-ceiling speakers pulled back to the rack.

 

*****Here’s what I want:

 

I want C4 to control all WHA and don’t want a second set of speakers in the rooms that have A/V extended via the Denon or have a Sonos system. I don’t want to add speakers to rooms that already have great audio, but I want to be able to group them. (This why I don’t think I want or need a C4/Triad Matrix/Amp, or do I?

I guess I’m looking for like a hybrid virtual/matrix. Face it, almost everything we do is “hybrid” in automation, so I don’t feel this is crazy.

 

I want each room to have the common (and forget the whole Spotify Connect issues) music services on their Listen menu and I want to be able to play at least 4 independent streams to any combination of rooms/zones. But, I don’t want to have to pick up a phone, solely want to use OSD, Touchpads & C4 App.

 

I think the whole HEOS environment can do this. And I’m willing to ditch Sonos. But I don’t understand how HEOS works with C4 well enough and neither do their techs. (understandably said to call C4). If it can, I assume I have a HEOS zone free on the Denon X8500H to pull the apps from the EA5, but why not use the Denon native apps instead? Aren’t they totally wireless? I would also be open to adding any additional HEOS links or a second or third AVR with additional HEOS Zones, since I don’t have theses non-display zones amped yet pending my final plan. (The original plan was to add Sonos Amps to the rack, but how would they all get fed audio?) I get my EA5 has 5 Audio outs and I’m sharing 1 (HDMI) for the 2 Denon A/V zones. I’ll stick to Sonos if there’s a solution, move to HEOS if that’s a solution. Or any other system-equip that will get this done.

 

Lastly, I will be adding local EA1s to each display area, so now each will have local audio apps to pull from, but what about the non-display rooms? Can I get them integrated (Listen Menus and ability to group via strictly C4 interfaces).

 

So to recap:

 

Want to use current AVR and Sonos (or HEOS) Audio Setups to matrix my whole house. Minimum 3-4 independent streams, that can group any or all rooms. Do not want to compromise audio (want multichannel stereo) on the the 7.4.6 & 5.1 setups in existing rooms. AND I NEVER want to have to pick up a phone (Other than for that damn Spotify Connect my wife and kids won’t give up), I want to start, stop, join, release rooms via C4 app, Touchpads, C4 Remotes and C4 OSD only.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Then use passive speakers/triad setup and get rid of your Heos/Sonos thoughts. Thats the only way for smooth interaction. Sonos is crippled in C4 and could possibly be the same with Heos.  Haven’t looked at Heos in a long time for integration but when I did, it performed poorly.

 

 

 I’m hoping someone has integrated HEOS in their own setup and can elaborate. @lippavisual

 

How would the LR and the Sonos 5.1 setups look in your scenario? I want to maintain the A/V (5.1 etc) profiles and not have to add separate passive speakers just for ambient music to these rooms? I’m not saying they have to remain Sonos, but Triad cannot do A/V audio profiles. Strictly stereo max, correct?

 

 

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I'm not replying except to say that I have 3 heos sound bars, heos link and heos 1.

The biggest thing I stressed to you when we first talked was pick one eco system and stick with it. all heos, all Sonos, or all control4 audio. But when you try to mix them and pass audio between them you're never going to be successful

 

 

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I would keep your current setup, use the Heos and Sonos only as speakers/endpoint volume control, then put a controller local to each area to have a Control4 output providing all audio.

 

Like the others said, it is better to pick 1 audio ecosystem to do whole home audio. That being said, the best integration is native.

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I'm not replying except to say that I have 3 heos sound bars, heos link and heos 1.
The biggest thing I stressed to you when we first talked was pick one eco system and stick with it. all heos, all Sonos, or all control4 audio. But when you try to mix them and pass audio between them you're never going to be successful
 
 


Considering you have 3 HEOS Bars, a HEOS 1 and a HEOS Link, do you do audio to rooms without displays? Do you have to pick up your phone or iPad to play music and group rooms? Or do you use the Denon mini apps?

You’re the person who would know best here Mitch, you’re actually using HEOS.

The ECO System picked me. Sonos was pre C4. The Denon was simultaneous with C4. But I have always said not married to anything, just want a total solution and Triad isn’t it.

Man, I’d love to see your setup, because I know your pushing it to the best it can be.

I always said I’d ditch Sonos in a minute. So I’m not trying to mix ecosystems.

The AVR has HEOS and has all the native music apps I care for. Seems to me that would allow for nice HEOS integration.

I cannot wrap my head around the rooms with no physical connection other than speaker wires. If I get Denon/HEOS equip to individually feed each one, someone tell me how that looks on a Listen proxy menu in C4? Hard to test with no HEOS speakers.


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1 hour ago, time2jet said:

Considering you have 3 HEOS Bars, a HEOS 1 and a HEOS Link, do you do audio to rooms without displays? Do you have to pick up your phone or iPad to play music and group rooms? Or do you use the Denon mini apps?

I use the heos bars optical to the TV as IP controlled sound bars - i don't actually use any of the heos features

the heos links is pretty useless to me now that I have native Amazon and spotify connect - so it should get unplugged

the heos 1 is in my gym and I generally spotify to it.

If you had a heos speakers in many rooms you can join audio between heos and yes have the heos mini apps installed to control the heos services.

it looks exactly the same as native - i am not sure how you would expect it to look on the remote?

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34 minutes ago, msgreenf said:

I use the heos bars optical to the TV as IP controlled sound bars - i don't actually use any of the heos features

the heos links is pretty useless to me now that I have native Amazon and spotify connect - so it should get unplugged

the heos 1 is in my gym and I generally spotify to it.

If you had a heos speakers in many rooms you can join audio between heos and yes have the heos mini apps installed to control the heos services.

it looks exactly the same as native - i am not sure how you would expect it to look on the remote?

This is good Mitch.  All I want is to have are the mini audio apps in each room on a Listen Menu (including bathrooms, garage, etc).  I can't determine if the HEOS driver will allow for endpoints to allow the apps or rooms to show.  If you follow, this way I never have to pick up my phone (other than to pick songs of I want to use "Spotify").  If my daughter is getting ready for school in her bathroom, she can use a T3 touchpad to start music there and then join other rooms (her bedroom, the foyer, kitchen etc.).  All I am trying to avoid is a phone.  I really want to centralize all smart features of this home.  It's an older community and if I sell it when my last kid leaves for college or the mean streets lol, I can sell the virtues of a smart home with a single smart ecosystem to do anything.  Older folks probably aren't Spotify users as a rule.

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5 minutes ago, KWD said:

Get a Roon core. Dump Denon and get NAD AVRs. 

I've been under the impression Roon is more for peoople that have large catalogs of NAS stored music?  I'm strictly a streamer.  My kids don't even understand what I am talking about when I tell them I have 12tb of music stored (every single track is available in better quality to stream).

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5 hours ago, time2jet said:

 

Before you start throwing darts, yes I do know the definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over again expecting a different outcome. I’m sure Mitch is going to say “how many more times can we go over this?!?! And he’s right, but I’m stubborn and where there’s a will there’s a way. We integrate things that don’t integrate everyday here. It’s part of the challenge.

 

Before you read further, I’m NOT trying to save money, I’m that trying to get something to work the way I want it to. If someone has a good idea of how to meet my needs, I’ll spend the money.

 

So here it is: (Rooms start with *)

 

I’m really struggling with Audio (likely because I am stubborn and won’t go to a matrix/amp... I have reasons stated below).

 

And keep in mind, I think HEOS solves this all, but I’m getting a ton of naysayers. Heos says “quite possibly, but C4 needs to solve”.

 

*****Here’s what I have:

 

#1st 2 Rooms

 

Denon X8500 (3 Zone Capable, two via HDMI) sources include independent TiVo (2), Roku Ultra (2), Samsung BluRay (1) & an EA5.

 

Zone 1 - HDMI to the LR where I have a 7.4.6 sound system hardwired.

 

Zone 2 - HDMI to the MBR where I have a Sonos 5.1 system fed Display Audio via an optical out if the TV to the Playbar.

 

Zone 3 - not used.

 

I’m using the native audio apps from the EA5.

 

#2nd Bedroom & Loft Suite

 

Sonos 5.1 setups. (All wireless, no Ethernet, fed TV audio via optical to Playbars).

 

#Kitchen/All Bathrooms/Laundry/Dining Room/Reading Den/Garage/Patio

 

In-ceiling speakers pulled back to the rack.

 

*****Here’s what I want:

 

I want C4 to control all WHA and don’t want a second set of speakers in the rooms that have A/V extended via the Denon or have a Sonos system. I don’t want to add speakers to rooms that already have great audio, but I want to be able to group them. (This why I don’t think I want or need a C4/Triad Matrix/Amp, or do I?

I guess I’m looking for like a hybrid virtual/matrix. Face it, almost everything we do is “hybrid” in automation, so I don’t feel this is crazy.

 

I want each room to have the common (and forget the whole Spotify Connect issues) music services on their Listen menu and I want to be able to play at least 4 independent streams to any combination of rooms/zones. But, I don’t want to have to pick up a phone, solely want to use OSD, Touchpads & C4 App.

 

I think the whole HEOS environment can do this. And I’m willing to ditch Sonos. But I don’t understand how HEOS works with C4 well enough and neither do their techs. (understandably said to call C4). If it can, I assume I have a HEOS zone free on the Denon X8500H to pull the apps from the EA5, but why not use the Denon native apps instead? Aren’t they totally wireless? I would also be open to adding any additional HEOS links or a second or third AVR with additional HEOS Zones, since I don’t have theses non-display zones amped yet pending my final plan. (The original plan was to add Sonos Amps to the rack, but how would they all get fed audio?) I get my EA5 has 5 Audio outs and I’m sharing 1 (HDMI) for the 2 Denon A/V zones. I’ll stick to Sonos if there’s a solution, move to HEOS if that’s a solution. Or any other system-equip that will get this done.

 

Lastly, I will be adding local EA1s to each display area, so now each will have local audio apps to pull from, but what about the non-display rooms? Can I get them integrated (Listen Menus and ability to group via strictly C4 interfaces).

 

So to recap:

 

Want to use current AVR and Sonos (or HEOS) Audio Setups to matrix my whole house. Minimum 3-4 independent streams, that can group any or all rooms. Do not want to compromise audio (want multichannel stereo) on the the 7.4.6 & 5.1 setups in existing rooms. AND I NEVER want to have to pick up a phone (Other than for that damn Spotify Connect my wife and kids won’t give up), I want to start, stop, join, release rooms via C4 app, Touchpads, C4 Remotes and C4 OSD only.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Thought I’d suggest native service if you want to use heos or sonos speakers - get an audio matrix.  Feed 3-4 heos links or Sonos connects into the matrix.  Feed matrix to the AVRs.  Single sonos or denon speakers can be joined for whole home audio.  This is what I did with sonos.  Sonos connects In audio matrix and that fed some ceiling speakers via c4 amps (in your case feed AVR).  And then I had a few sonos play speakers in rooms.  Because sonos crushed c4 integration and I was doing a big home renovation project I wired up the remaining zones, ditched sonos and went c4 native.  
 

in one of your posts you said you don’t want a matrix.  But you want a virtual matrix yet the brain trust is all telling you no.  Think about it.  They make a physical matrix for a reason.  Zone 2-3 on AVRs are not what you want for quality home automation.  

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2 hours ago, eggzlot said:

Thought I’d suggest native service if you want to use heos or sonos speakers - get an audio matrix.  Feed 3-4 heos links or Sonos connects into the matrix.  Feed matrix to the AVRs.  Single sonos or denon speakers can be joined for whole home audio.  This is what I did with sonos.  Sonos connects In audio matrix and that fed some ceiling speakers via c4 amps (in your case feed AVR).  And then I had a few sonos play speakers in rooms.  Because sonos crushed c4 integration and I was doing a big home renovation project I wired up the remaining zones, ditched sonos and went c4 native.  
 

in one of your posts you said you don’t want a matrix.  But you want a virtual matrix yet the brain trust is all telling you no.  Think about it.  They make a physical matrix for a reason.  Zone 2-3 on AVRs are not what you want for quality home automation.  

I like this @eggzlot

I don't have time at the moment, but I want to read through this again and work through it in my head.

My opposition to a matrix was only that I wanted to use the existing wireless Sonos rooms that (will) have EA1's local, that now are just fed via TV optical out AND the Living Room passive large system that's amped via the Denon.  I wanted to be able to join and remove any room in the house that I could amp., but use most of what I own already.

It sounds like you've done exactly what I want to do... I just need to think through this.  I have 3 old Sonos Connects not being used and 3 Sonos Amps still in  the box.  What matrix are you using?  Can I just get a last gen C4? I'm sure there is one in the shop on a shelf.  These guys pushed everyone into Triad stuff hard.   

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36 minutes ago, time2jet said:

I like this @eggzlot

I don't have time at the moment, but I want to read through this again and work through it in my head.

My opposition to a matrix was only that I wanted to use the existing wireless Sonos rooms that (will) have EA1's local, that now are just fed via TV optical out AND the Living Room passive large system that's amped via the Denon.  I wanted to be able to join and remove any room in the house that I could amp., but use most of what I own already.

It sounds like you've done exactly what I want to do... I just need to think through this.  I have 3 old Sonos Connects not being used and 3 Sonos Amps still in  the box.  What matrix are you using?  Can I just get a last gen C4? I'm sure there is one in the shop on a shelf.  These guys pushed everyone into Triad stuff hard.   

My legacy setup:

Living room - AVR that was fed back into my Matrix
Dining room - in ceiling speakers fed to C4 amp
Patio - under soffit speakers fed to c4 Amp
Gym - ceiling speakers fed back to C4 Amp
Kitchen - ceiling speakers fed back to c4 Amp
Bedroom - Play 1 Speaker
Office - Play 3 Speaker
Bonus Room - Play 3 Speaker

C4 Matrix (version before Triad release) and 1 4 channel c4 amp for the 4 zones mentioned above.  2 Sonos Connects.  I could start a stream on a Play radio and share it to any zone on the Connects via the Matrix, or vice versa.  Start a stream in say the Kitchen (on a Connect) and then add/join say the office Play 3 speaker.   I could control it all on the Sonos app or the C4 app/touchscreen.  I never really got into Alexa/voice but I am sure it would have been possible.

It worked.  Period.  Hardware matrix, not a virtual matrix.

C4 and Sonos integration got worse.  I had all of my walls open for 6 months with an electrician running wires due to a major home renovation project.  So I got another 8 zone C4 amp, wired up those 3 Play speaker zones plus a few more zones with in ceiling speakers, sold the sonos gear and just go all native C4.  Still have the matrix to add stuff like cable boxes, blu ray audio, record player and other non native sources.

While I was in the Sonos world I was able to press Pandora or SiriusXM icons, pick my channel/station, etc.  Now Sonos is more limited so you cannot create new channels/stations or edit lists, etc.  But the context would be the same, you could press an icon for your service and whatever C4/Sonos integration allows you can do/see.  If Heos is better, do it with Links and Heos Speakers.

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16 hours ago, KWD said:

https://download.roonlabs.com/control4/Roon_Control4.pdf
 

Roon integrates your music with Tidal and Qubuz.  Or could be used with the two streaming services alone. 
 

Might be worth looking into. 

 

KWD, 

We have a full Sonos System will this allow us to search our Music via a T3 TouchSreen  ?

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6 minutes ago, Gary Leeds UK said:

KWD, 

We have a full Sonos System will this allow us to search our Music via a T3 TouchSreen  ?

It should AFAIK.  I don’t have a Nucleus which is required to bring Roon into C4 so I can’t say how it well it works in C4. 

It should allow you to make anything that works as a Roon endpoint work as a C4 end point with the Roon mini app in C4. IE you can’t use native C4 streaming to the Roon created end points.

There is a free trial of Roon though so you can set up a system to see how well it all works with it’s native app.  

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  • 2 months later...
On 1/26/2020 at 5:33 AM, Gary Leeds UK said:

KWD, 

We have a full Sonos System will this allow us to search our Music via a T3 TouchSreen  ?

The short answer is "yes, but."  

We have 12 Sonos zones along with a Roon Nucleus.  We also have the Roon C4 driver set up.  And, yes, the Roon driver allows you to browse and interact with your music catalog, Tidal, and Qobuz, all through the C4 Touchscreens, and play to Sonos zones.  However, there is a bug in the Roon C4 driver that causes it to break whenever you join two or more zones together for multi-room playback.  Roon has known about this bug for at least 18 months, but no progress has been made. I have lost hope they will fix it.  This really is a shame, because Roon would finally bring back full integration with Sonos and C4.

On the plus side, I am still happy with my Roon nucleus. The Roon app works flawlessly with Sonos, and the app itself will make you mostly forget about using a C4 touch screen to control your Sonos. It is really unique -- like thumbing through a virtual LP collection -- and makes it so much fun to browse and play music. All that said, I wish they would just fix this multi-room playback bug and make it truly perfect.

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The short answer is "yes, but."  
We have 12 Sonos zones along with a Roon Nucleus.  We also have the Roon C4 driver set up.  And, yes, the Roon driver allows you to browse and interact with your music catalog, Tidal, and Qobuz, all through the C4 Touchscreens, and play to Sonos zones.  However, there is a bug in the Roon C4 driver that causes it to break whenever you join two or more zones together for multi-room playback.  Roon has known about this bug for at least 18 months, but no progress has been made. I have lost hope they will fix it.  This really is a shame, because Roon would finally bring back full integration with Sonos and C4.
On the plus side, I am still happy with my Roon nucleus. The Roon app works flawlessly with Sonos, and the app itself will make you mostly forget about using a C4 touch screen to control your Sonos. It is really unique -- like thumbing through a virtual LP collection -- and makes it so much fun to browse and play music. All that said, I wish they would just fix this multi-room playback bug and make it truly perfect.

[mention]DLite [/mention]

Do you have the Nucleus or Nucleus Plus and can you compare the two? I’m trying to figure out if I’d have any real hard reason for a plus. I love Roon. Wish they’d fix the multi-zone feature and add another service (Fullblown Spotify Haha!) If they did, or even didn’t, I’m not sure anything else is as sexy.


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On 4/19/2020 at 11:02 PM, time2jet said:


[mention]DLite [/mention]

Do you have the Nucleus or Nucleus Plus and can you compare the two? I’m trying to figure out if I’d have any real hard reason for a plus. I love Roon. Wish they’d fix the multi-zone feature and add another service (Fullblown Spotify Haha!) If they did, or even didn’t, I’m not sure anything else is as sexy.


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I have the Nucleus+.  I bought it because, in theory, the Nucleus is limited in the number of simultaneous zones it will support.  I don't remember the limit, but just that our 12 zones were above the recommended limit.  Also, if you have set up Roon to a lot of digital signal processing, the Nucleus+ may be more reliable.  I suspect, however, if you are using pretty straightforward DSP and playing to a few zones at a time, the Nucleus is just as snappy as the Nucleus+, but this is just a guess.

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This shouldn't be difficult at all.  First off, keep everything in Control4 for the music apps.  Forget Heos.  Keep the Sonos speakers to use as powered IP speakers only, no Sonos apps.  This will allow you to do full programming with Announcements, etc.

 

- LR- use HDMI out from the EA5.  MBR will get en EA1 with HDMI feeding the Denon.  You will need to set On-Screen connections for the EA5 to Zone 1 and EA1 to zone 2.  Your multi zone receiver will confuse C4 audio routing if you do not do it this way.  Setting connections this way will create two completely separate audio zones that can still be joined with any other audio zones.  MBR audio will come from the EA1, through the TV and to the Sonos speakers with full C4 control.

- Second Bedroom- EA1 HDMI out to the TV, TV optical out to the Sonos speakers.

- all other rooms- Triad Audio Matrix and Triad amps with the four audio connections from the EA5.

 

100% of control will come from on-screen Navigators, touchscreens, C4 app with full use of all music apps through these interfaces.  You can also use Configurable Keypads for some really slick and simple controls of music.  All zones will be able to play by themselves, able to group together.  No replacing or doubling of any speakers.  You will actually be able to play 7 different streams at once.

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This shouldn't be difficult at all.  First off, keep everything in Control4 for the music apps.  Forget Heos.  Keep the Sonos speakers to use as powered IP speakers only, no Sonos apps.  This will allow you to do full programming with Announcements, etc.
 
- LR- use HDMI out from the EA5.  MBR will get en EA1 with HDMI feeding the Denon.  You will need to set On-Screen connections for the EA5 to Zone 1 and EA1 to zone 2.  Your multi zone receiver will confuse C4 audio routing if you do not do it this way.  Setting connections this way will create two completely separate audio zones that can still be joined with any other audio zones.  MBR audio will come from the EA1, through the TV and to the Sonos speakers with full C4 control.
- Second Bedroom- EA1 HDMI out to the TV, TV optical out to the Sonos speakers.
- all other rooms- Triad Audio Matrix and Triad amps with the four audio connections from the EA5.
 
100% of control will come from on-screen Navigators, touchscreens, C4 app with full use of all music apps through these interfaces.  You can also use Configurable Keypads for some really slick and simple controls of music.  All zones will be able to play by themselves, able to group together.  No replacing or doubling of any speakers.  You will actually be able to play 7 different streams at once.

I have EA-1’s at each display room except media room is using HDMI out of the Denon. Change any of this? My matrix isn’t Triad, but current C4 8 Zone or (2 ) 4 Zones (have all of that sitting on a bench). Re-reading now.


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You wouldn't need to change any of the EA1s.  They would just be needed to create a zone of C4 audio stream for each room that has Sonos speakers (Sonos speakers becoming basically just TV speakers for that room).  Any C4 compatible matrix would work as long as it can take all of the EA5 audio outputs that you would want to use (analog and digital).

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