digitaltrader Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 Not to be a pester' date=' but any update on firmware upgrade ability?[/quote']The answer remains the same. While it is technically possible for us to release a firmware upgrade that could be installed in the field, we don't anticipate doing this.I'll repeat myself - it is technically possible for us to release a firmware upgrade that could be installed in the field. You would not have to ship the devices back to Just Add Power to install such an upgrade. It's just not something we are emphasizing, as we don't anticipate this happening.What is the method for a firmware update if needed? Is it a simple update over the Ethernet or do you need to open the box and access the chip directly? This makes a big difference. I have never had a first generation product that didn't require a firmware update. I am not trying to be argumentative, however am planning on investing nearly $10k in your product and use it as the backbone of my project. I really want to make sure this will last me as long as hdmi is the standard. So if you could clarify the method of updating the firmware no matter if you beleive it will be eventually needed, that would be great. Also, how long do you intend to support the first generation boxes (ie not warranty issues but technical updates)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nded Posted December 21, 2009 Author Share Posted December 21, 2009 The nature of the update, if it ever happens, would dictate whether it is applied electronically (i.e. via the NIC) or physically (there is a socketed EPROM on the PCB). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitaltrader Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 Is there any plans in future revisions to allow all updates via the NIC? I am sure the video codec will be able to be improved over time and want to make sure that can be updated via the NIC if possible. Is the video codec on the eeprom? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nded Posted December 21, 2009 Author Share Posted December 21, 2009 While I try to be as open as possible, we are now treading on some proprietary design issues that we aren't willing to disclose in a public forum. Not everybody who reads these words are our friends. I hope you can understand this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanE Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 Ed,Why don't you post the design of your equipment, including a full parts list and your source of all your parts, and your schematics? Oh, and your firmware files... And while you're at it, your bank account number, Home Address, DOB, PIN, and SSN? Heh.I'm sure we can all agree that the best thing you can do is to continue to make great products.Thanks for participating on the forums. Your answers here are always appreciated.RyanE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henniae Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 RyanIsn't that a bit too much to ask for? I would settle for the bank account number. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanE Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 Eh, I'd wager that the designs and schematics for his products are probably worth considerably more than the contents of his bank account.RyanE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitaltrader Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 I really don't understand what the big deal is knowing if the video codec is easily upgraded via the firmware. I don't think that is giving anyone a jump on copying the design. But it surely makes for a lot of headaches if it isn't and there are improvements to the picture quality via codec changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILoveC4 Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 I really don't understand what the big deal is knowing if the video codec is easily upgraded via the firmware. I don't think that is giving anyone a jump on copying the design. But it surely makes for a lot of headaches if it isn't and there are improvements to the picture quality via codec changes.Yeah, I'm with you...if someone wants to copy what he is doing they will simply buy a few a "tinker" with them.In fact, I know of several companies that already have. Word on the street is that Key Digital has a product dropping next year using this technology that will be "mind blowing". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecodeman Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 In fact, I know of several companies that already have. Word on the street is that Key Digital has a product dropping next year using this technology that will be "mind blowing".Cool. Expect it to be "mind blowing" in Key-Digital's definition and cost 4x the amount Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILoveC4 Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 In fact' date=' I know of several companies that already have. Word on the street is that Key Digital has a product dropping next year using this technology that will be "mind blowing".[/quote']Cool. Expect it to be "mind blowing" in Key-Digital's definition and cost 4x the amount Yeah, that is no joke. Key Digital makes good stuff but is such a rip-off.I was told they will have an 8x8 solution that will will distribute HDMI 1.3, full digital audio, two way IP control and/or IR over a single Cat5.This product will retail for about $4,000.I agree that Key Digital has not been real impressive in the past, and they are over priced. Just throwing it out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanE Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 I really don't understand what the big deal is knowing if the video codec is easily upgraded via the firmware. I don't think that is giving anyone a jump on copying the design. But it surely makes for a lot of headaches if it isn't and there are improvements to the picture quality via codec changes.Sure, but that's Ed's choice. If he thinks it's something that he wants to keep inside the vest, he should.RyanE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitaltrader Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 No answer obviously means the video codec (ie picture quality improvements) is not easily upgradeable which is unfortunate in my book. As an early adopter I have promised myself to try to avoid any new device that doesn't offer an easy way via firmware upgrade to update that device. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecodeman Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 No answer obviously means the video codec (ie picture quality improvements) is not easily upgradeable which is unfortunate in my book. As an early adopter I have promised myself to try to avoid any new device that doesn't offer an easy way via firmware upgrade to update that device.As unfortunate it may be, this isn't the only case. Many early adopters of Blu-ray were burned, IMO, by the many players that didn't offer an upgrade path to 2.0 or offer all the features of the format, in comparison to HD DVD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitaltrader Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 No answer obviously means the video codec (ie picture quality improvements) is not easily upgradeable which is unfortunate in my book. As an early adopter I have promised myself to try to avoid any new device that doesn't offer an easy way via firmware upgrade to update that device.As unfortunate it may be' date=' this isn't the only case. Many early adopters of Blu-ray were burned, IMO, by the many players that didn't offer an upgrade path to 2.0 or offer all the features of the format, in comparison to HD DVD.[/quote']Yes there are too many examples of manufacturers not seeing the need to include the ability to upgrade their first revision hardware to include future updates/improvements that eventually leaves early adopters stranded. That is the reason I want to make sure I make a sound decision when making this $10k purchase that will be the backbone of my C4 project. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3fingerbrown Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 I know someone who uses the keydigital component switcher with control4 and is very happy with it.And 3 rack-mounted JAP HDMI-over-IP transmitters would be a 9x9 system at about the same price (3 x $1299 = $3900) as the key digital. I'm rooting for JAP, being that it was the first, and has been very good to the C4 community, but from the consumer perspective, a little competition would be a good thing. And I'll also add that I don't see this technology going into many homes at any of these prices. A 6 zone system, with the rack mounts, assuming the $1299 price, would be $2600 for the transmitters, $500 for the switch, and $1500 for the recievers, or a total of $4600. That is nearly twice the cost of a Sony component video switcher.So here's to hoping that a little competition stirs the pot in 2010, and that Just Add Power comes out on top... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c4pa Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 ^^ With the Sony, it only does video, and don't forget that you need to add the cost of the receivers in to the $2,000+ cost of the matrix. Not to mention the Sony is not scalable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nded Posted December 23, 2009 Author Share Posted December 23, 2009 Regarding the Sony Component solution - I think this picture says it all...P.S. It may help you to appreciate this if you realize we are located on the West coast of Florida. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3fingerbrown Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 We don't need to go into the advantages of the HDMI-over-IP versus component switching. They are numerous, and that is why we are are all excited about JAP in the first place. I'm just saying that this $1299 rack mounted version will need to come down in price before you see it anywhere except high-end installations. Although initially excited about the rack version, it looks like the $400 premium is too much for me to justify. I am planning 6-8 sources for my house, so for me it would be a $800-$1200 premium just to rack mount!!!Instead I'll spend $20 on a rack shelf or two and spend the $800-$1200 elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILoveC4 Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 We don't need to go into the advantages of the HDMI-over-IP versus component switching. They are numerous, and that is why we are are all excited about JAP in the first place. I'm just saying that this $1299 rack mounted version will need to come down in price before you see it anywhere except high-end installations. Although initially excited about the rack version, it looks like the $400 premium is too much for me to justify. I am planning 6-8 sources for my house, so for me it would be a $800-$1200 premium just to rack mount!!!Instead I'll spend $20 on a rack shelf or two and spend the $800-$1200 elsewhere.http://images1.cableorganizer.com/vmp/universal-rack-shelves/images/ER-S2UV.jpgSee though, this brings up a great point. WE DON'T KNOW THE MSRP!!! That $1,299 that guy was charging could be a complete rape job...we have no way of knowing because there isn't a baseline MSRP to judge off of. What we all need to do if we want to buy this product is get like 4 or 5 quotes (or deal with someone you REALLY trust) in order to figure out what a reasonable price is.nded acted like I was crazy when I asked for an MSRP because this product requires a custom install. I don't give a shit whether it requires a custom install or not, you need some baseline pricing to protect the consumer. That is why MSRP's exist.Oh well, what do I know anyways....apparently not much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILoveC4 Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 It is also worth noting that MSRP prices exist (or at least did) on the non-rack mount units on his website. Everyone knew the price of those, straight from the source. All we are going off now is the only guy who has them listed for sale on his website, and we don't even know who he is.Ed...can't you just give us a MANUFACTURERS SUGGESTED RETAIL PRICE? If you want to make the price high to let your dealers make a 300% margin, that's fine (Note: I am not suggesting that is what your doing, just an example). It at least give the consumer informaation to go off of.I'm all for high profit margins and people making money, my paycheck comes from profit margins just like yours. Everyone needs to make money, the consumer just needs information to to research on that ISN'T from the person trying to sell it to them.Make it only available through dealers, and publish an MSRP. If you want, I can provide you endless examples of exactly what I am talking about. Here is one that is top of mind. I purchase this bicycle earlies this year (http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bc/SBCBkModel.jsp?spid=47533&eid=4350&menuItemId=9256). Specialized puts an MSRP on the bike at $7,200, but you can't buy it from them - only from dealers. I found the bike for sale at prices ranging from $4,500 all the way up to $7,699. What the MSRP did was let me know that the guy selling for $4,500 I should be weary of, because that is TOO cheap. I may get ripped off, but that guy definately won't be around to help me if I have a problem. The $7,699 guy is just overcharging. THIS IS WHY AN MSRP IS CRITICAL./rant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CFUG Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 I checked over at AVS Forums- not much excitement over this product like there is here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3fingerbrown Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 I agree. All control4 products are custom installed, but they all have a list price. Whether the dealer wants to discount the products to somewhere in between his cost and the list price is up to the dealer.It appears that $1299 is the MSRP, or list price, or whatever you want to call it. Not only is Markertek selling them for $1299, but TecNec, which is JAP's distributor, says that the "list price" for the rack mount transmitter is $1299.http://www.tecnec.com/Product.asp?baseItem=VBS-HDMI-338A&cat=HOMETHTRE&subcat=&prodClass=HDMIOVERIP&mfg=Just+Add+Power&search=0&off=Maybe some dealers will discount from the $1299, but it doesn't sound like they will be able to discount very much with that high of a list price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILoveC4 Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 For those who are curious what I am referring to about the MSRP, here is a quote taken from another thread found here: http://c4forums.com/viewtopic.php?id=4013&p=3What is msrp on this product?What would you think if this product is only available for dealers and has no MSRP? It's sort of hard to imagine a "retail" purchase of a device that requires professional systems integration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nded Posted December 24, 2009 Author Share Posted December 24, 2009 $1,299 is our MSRP. Your Control4 dealer will determine what type of discount they want to offer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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