3 way wiring questions for the uninitiated

[Pauliep]

I am an electrician and have been tasked with working on some Control4 projects for a home automation company.  They recently lost their longtime guy(s), so I got called in.  I have been a lurker in these forums trying to catch up on my knowledge base.

I have wired a few Control4 homes and projects before, but wanted to know I am doing something correctly.

The customer has a three way switch.  He also has a  KC-120277 and a KA.  He wants the KC-120277 to be programmed to turn on his kitchen, bar, and other lights, which are on different circuits.  Since the KC-120277 only has the neutral and hot wire, I don't believe this can be done.  He is very adamant that the KC-120277 goes in a specific spot, but I don't think we can do it.  The spot he wants is the main feed to power with a traveler to a light, so I think he is out of luck.

I believe a standard SW-120277 will work with the KA, but he wants the convenience of controlling four or five switches with the KC-120277.  

Could you provide some guidance or assistance in what would be the best solution?

Thanks,

Jean

[Pounce]

What is controlling the load on the kitchen, bar and other lights that the customer wants to control with the KC-120277? It doesn't matter which circuit the KC-120277 is on in the house it can be programmed to control other C4 switches in the C4 project.

[Pauliep]

So the other loads are: kitchen (separate load), bar (separate load), uplighting (separate load), and downlighting (separate load).  All of these loads are about twenty feet from the light the customer wants to control.

The load the customer wants to control is on a separate load from the four above  So, the main portion of the three way is in the dining room, with the other portion is in a bedroom.  The customer does not want the KC-120277 in the bedroom.  He wants it in the dining room.  But, as the KC-120277 is only a white, black, and green wire switch, I don't think there is any way for it to control a load, nor would the KA be able to do so.

And, forgive me if I am wrong, I wouldn't be able to use the KC-120277 in place of a switch in the other four locations as they are all single pull loads, so I wouldn't have a way to connect the load to the lights.

Jean

[chopedogg88]

I think what you are not understanding is that the KC-120 can be PROGRAMMED to control any light in the system, or a lighting scene, or a shade, or music...whatever.  Doesn't need to be physically wired to anything other than 110v power to power itself.  It communicates WIRELESSLY to the Control4 controller which then in turn communicates WIRELESSLY to the other Control4 dimmers/switches which are controlling those other loads.  The Control4 programmer takes care of that part, you just need to wire in the KC to power.

But yes you are correct in that the KC cannot control a load (itself), you'd need a Control4 Dimmer or Keypad Dimmer (KD-120) to control a load.  The KA also cannot control a load unless it is paired with a Dimmer, Keypad Dimmer, or Switch at the other end of the 3-way.

Does that help?

[Pauliep]

Chopeddogg88,

I do understand the programming aspect and was confirming the KC-120277 can't control a load by itself.  This presents a problem as the customer has a three gang box he wants to use, and I can't expand into an extra box.

[Jakelay]

I’m going through this planning process right now. If they want a keypad in a spot where there is load control, they would have to install a keypad dimmer (KD). Then they would have to have dimmers/switches installed for the other circuits where they would control those loads from the keypad (KD) via programming. The programming is sent wirelessly from the KD to the other switches/dimmers.
 

With C4 switches/dimmers installed on the other load switch, the KD can control the load on the circuit it is installed on as well as control those switches with programming and they can also use those switches like a normal switch (and programmed for other things of course) There is no way to control the loads on those circuits without a C4 switch or dimmer installed on them.

The KC is for controlling programming only, no load.  Could be installed somewhere where you don’t have switches/loads currently in place. The KD would be installed to control a load on that circuit and send programming to the other C4 switches/dimmers to control those loads.

On a 3 way setup, you would have to have the CD and then a KA aux switch on the other end.  The KA doesn't control load, it just tells the dimmer (in this case the KD) to control the load.

This is what I’ve run into with a cascade of expense trying to get all of my faceplates to look uniform since I have so many 3 way switches in other locations. Any 3 way switch has to have a C4 accessory/auxiliary switch at the other location(s). Then, if you want it all to match, you would have to upgrade the other switches/dimmers in those gangs,  which means more aux switches in other locations and then matching those switches for multiple gangs and on and on . . .
 

If all current switches are local with no 3 ways, you would likely need a KD for one circuit/load and C4 switches/dimmers on the other circuits and then the KD can power the load for the circuit it is installed on and tell the other switches, via programming, to control those loads (and they will have use of the individual switches for ‘normal’ load control as well).

The KC just needs power so it doesn’t have to be installed on a load (actually can’t) but you still need the C4 switches/dimmers installed on the other circuits so that the KC can tell those switches to control those loads via programming.

In your example, with a three gang box, you would probably put in one keypad dimmer and then either C4 switches or C4dimmers in the other two gangs. Each would control, their own load and then the KD could be programmed to control to control the other two switches/dimmers.

Thats my understanding in my limited research.  I think you have a pretty good grasp on all of this from your posts, it's just the C4 models/lingo that can trip you up and it's not the easiest thing to understand for a lay person - I'm one and it's taken a lot of reading and asking questions to figure out what I think I know so far.  Still lots to learn.

Hope that helps.

[chopedogg88]

7 hours ago, Pauliep said:

Chopeddogg88,

I do understand the programming aspect and was confirming the KC-120277 can't control a load by itself.  This presents a problem as the customer has a three gang box he wants to use, and I can't expand into an extra box.

you'll need a Keypad Dimmer then

[Pounce]

8 hours ago, Pauliep said:

Chopeddogg88,

I do understand the programming aspect and was confirming the KC-120277 can't control a load by itself.  This presents a problem as the customer has a three gang box he wants to use, and I can't expand into an extra box.

What else aren't you detailing? You didn't mention this in your first post.

Instead of the KC-120277 you probably want the C4-KD120 and mentioned by chopedog88. That will control a load in the box where its installed and be programed to control remote loads that are controlled by C4 switches (etc). Are the other two items in this 3 gang box switches and are they also C4 switches?

[Pauliep]

Last question for this one:

Once I wire up the switch using the KD-120 and the KA-Aux switch, will the user be able to use the switch to control the lights prior to programming from either end?

[Thxtech]

Here's another option. Instead of using the KA as the dumb end of the three way with the yellow messenger wire to traveler back to the KD120, use the CK and send power to it from the KD on that wire. You won't need the yellow communication wire at either end, and can use the traveler to power the CK. Then, the programmer tells the CK that it's top button is to control the load (KD), and he's got more keypad. Or, tell the CK it's a single rocker just to control that load. And as a bonus, you can now have status leds and back lit engraving like every other switch in the house. If cost were no object I'd never use a KA.

Lots of options really.

 

 

[Thxtech]

On 7/9/2020 at 3:49 PM, Pauliep said:

Last question for this one:

Once I wire up the switch using the KD-120 and the KA-Aux switch, will the user be able to use the switch to control the lights prior to programming from either end?

The top button on the KD will control the load prior to programming. The KA will work as well. The CK however, must be programmed and have an active controller on site to function as a 3 way or keypad.

[knowitall]

Why couldn’t the home automation company you’re subbing for field these questions and provide you with instruction?

 

[Pauliep]

Because they are not always in the office or available to answer.