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C4 GUI design ((is there such thing?)


Köhler Medientechnik

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Hi,

i´m pretty new to Control4, successfully passed the automation programmer certification last week and taking a deeper look into the system´s capabilities.

We´re doing higher end home cinemas in Germany and the neighboring countries. We´ve got Crestron and RTI in our portfolio, but especially Crestron sometimes is a bit over the top when it comes to automating just a single room. This is where Control4 should come into play. Plus our customers asked for the Neeo remote because they love the look.

I found the system is pretty easy to program and can be quickly deployed.

However, it seems as if the GUI is very limited. With Crestron, i´m used to design custom made GUIs that allow the customer to control several components from one screen or remote.
I learned the C4 GUI is fixed to the component you´re currently controlling (e.g. media player).

Real life example of what we´re usually providing to our customers:

Start cinema system with a push of a button (easy 😉)

After selecting a source, you can control the source device with the remote control (or touchscreen / app). In addition to that, you can control masking system, lights, Surround processor (select different presets, upmixer, correction programs, etc.), seating (backrest, etc.) plus you get feedback from the system that can be displayed on the remote´s touchscreen (e.g. loudspeaker channel layout used, upmixer used, preset selected, etc.) all from one GUI/UI without switching pages.

I´ve asked the trainer in the certification course and he said that´s not possible with C4.
There are the three / five buttons on the SR260/Neeo that can be tied to custom functionality and you can use experience buttons. That´s it. But even for the "focused buttons" on the Neeo, you need to navigate back to the focused button screen.

Is the GUI/UI really that limited?

Don´t understand me wrong, this is no bashing, i just want to understand what´s possible to find the right solution for our use cases. (i also understand the simplicity of the GUI/UI is on of the reasons for the quick deployment of a C4 system, so it´s just pros and cons that need to be evuated)

Thanks in advance, 

Thorsten

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2 hours ago, Köhler Medientechnik said:

OK, thanks for confirmation, then i got it right.

Switching back and forth just to be able to control different devices in the same room doesn´t seem to be so intuitive for me.

But C4 definitely has it´s target market. As i said, just wanted to find out for which use cases it fits or not.

You can still use experience buttons to control different things in a room (even on the Neeo).  That gives a fair amount of flexibility.

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From a user perspective, I'm actually very interested in seeing how the C4 works for us. As comparison, we have a Crestron touch screen that was put in on our initial install.  The dealer used their 'recommended' look and it's been fine but nothing great.  I know we could have customized more but the cost would have been pretty high. So we've lived with it for a lot of years.  We've never added or changed anything because the cost to do so would have been astronomical as well.  We do have a floorplan of the house with our alarm/contact triggers. I think where we'll see the most value of that will be when we're removing Crestron for our new C4 system so the installer can easily identify all of the contacts. Nice to have, not used much.

I actually like the more standardized feel of the C4 system and it sounds like you can do some things that most people would need.  My guess is that if you were to ask people deciding between the two systems if they 'have' to have something via Crestron custom programming or can 'tolerate' a slight difference in accessing the same control/status and then explained the cost difference - most who are considering C4 would probably be ok with less customization/more standardization.

Now, if someone is putting in a $250k system and money is not object, then sure, they'll potentially be less price sensitive and want more customization.  For the $5k-$75k installs, I would think an extra $2-$5k just for a few more custom items might be a little harder to sell. I know it was for me when I wanted a more custom screen in our Crestron system.  I think we paid something crazy just to get the floorplan with the security contacts showing.  Would not have missed it or even thought of it had it not been 'sold' to me as something cool.

Just a suggestion in the most positive of ways - You may have to adjust your perspective as a Crestron programmer and figure out how to communicate the features and benefits of both systems and not focus on the limitations. Most people buying these systems don't really know what they want when it comes to customization so they rely on their dealer/installer to suggest things.  I think the value of C4 even with more standardization is an easy sell if you communicate that the right way to the client.  Whereas Crestron is an easy sell to other clients that really want the customization and are willing to pay for that.  It's all about how you help the client see value based on their needs vs making them feel like they might be missing out on something i.e. more customization. If you can get past that, it will be easy to get your clients past it.  Just like @msgreenf did above - inherent power and consistent - a lot of value to that to a consumer.

There are definitely comprises with C4 - as there are with Crestron - most clients wouldn't even know how to compare them so your guidance will be key to that.

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Thanks for your valuable input, Jakelay.

That´s exactly what i´m trying to figure out at the moment. Where are the pros and cons of Control4 compared to other systems.

Where doing home cinemas starting at 50KEU to 500KEU+ so an extra 2-5KEU is not that big of a concern. However, for a 50KEU home cinema, we would suggest to better spend that in the AV-system or room acoustics and not into the remote control.
We also work with templates (themes) to ensure a good user experience throughout the different panel, remotes and apps.
 

I think if a user is comfortable with C4 or not depends on how much automation he (or she) wants. If you automatize everything, then you don´t need additional functionality at your fingertips. But a lot of our customers are pretty tech-savvy and control freaks, so they want to be in control of all aspects of their system and are willing to spend the extra Euro.
Many of them already have a Crestron system in their home, so that´s a no-brainer anyway.

But as i said in my initial post, there are others who only want a cinema room and only want to control that one. A full blown Crestron-system often is just too much. That´s the reason why we´re looking for alternatives. The fact that i spent 4 days in the certification training tells you that i´m really interested. 😉

From what i´ve seen, you can rollout a single-room system with Control4 in hours, not days - so that´s definitely a plus.

After all, i´m happy we´re now in a position to cater for all needs. 🙂

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For anyone that does not want to spend a ton of money on Crestron, Control4 is a perfect compromise besides RTI. Control4 does have disadvantages in Germany, but that's more about lighting integration and not AV

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So let me ask a specific question:

I´ve got system with an AVR. I can control audio volume, select different inputs by selecting the according source player.
But just as an example, is it possible to display the selected surround mode on the remote? As an example, i´ve seen in the driver for a Trinnov audio processor that the driver provides feedback for that and i can react upon it with programming. But is it possible to display the status on the remote / touchpanel?

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Not on remotes. You could possibly do a pop-up stating the surround mode upon change on a T3, or you could create and use an experience button driver (which would show on all graphical interfaces) that has icons (ig you could use the standard symbols for Dolby Pro Cinema, DTS, NEO, Atmos DTS-HD) and set it based on the receiver feed back to have something display. You could then also use that 'button' to give manual selection if desired.

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So let me ask a specific question:
I´ve got system with an AVR. I can control audio volume, select different inputs by selecting the according source player.
But just as an example, is it possible to display the selected surround mode on the remote? As an example, i´ve seen in the driver for a Trinnov audio processor that the driver provides feedback for that and i can react upon it with programming. But is it possible to display the status on the remote / touchpanel?
No not that I know of.
You can program custom buttons to select/cycle through modes but it won't show that on a C4 GUI
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Note that this is a fair bit of work (though less than Crestron) and you could create sucha  button for yourself and re-use it with different setups as the driver isn't 'bound' to a specific device.

Changing the icons if you want to go for full 'custom' versions each time isn't overly involved either once you get the hang of it.

 

It will NOT go as far as Crestron, but unique setups and feels are possible within Control4, but you lose some of the 'time and money' gain as you're back to spending time onn GUI customization.

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I have a holiday home and a home which are both C4 setups in the 200KEU plus range and my company (medium sized) has a Crestron setup (basically because my IT Director thought that my home automation was Crestron...).  I get that my Crestron experience is fairly limited but I would take C4 any day based on what I have seen.

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42 minutes ago, Cyknight said:

Note that this is a fair bit of work (though less than Crestron) and you could create sucha  button for yourself and re-use it with different setups as the driver isn't 'bound' to a specific device.

Changing the icons if you want to go for full 'custom' versions each time isn't overly involved either once you get the hang of it.

 

It will NOT go as far as Crestron, but unique setups and feels are possible within Control4, but you lose some of the 'time and money' gain as you're back to spending time onn GUI customization.

Something like the Blackwire Emoji driver is useful in this case as you get 100s or built in ions to use,  I use this a lot to give me a (sort of) customized screen.

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26 minutes ago, South Africa C4 user said:

I have a holiday home and a home which are both C4 setups in the 200KEU plus range and my company (medium sized) has a Crestron setup (basically because my IT Director thought that my home automation was Crestron...).  I get that my Crestron experience is fairly limited but I would take C4 any day based on what I have seen.

I don´t think it´s appropriate to do a judgement having seen just one (potentially poorly design and/or implemented) other system.

As other´s have stated before, it´s pretty easy to implement a terrible user experience with Crestron if done wrong.
But i really don´t want this thread to become a system´s war. Each system has it´s pros and cons and there are use cases for both of them.

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1 hour ago, Köhler Medientechnik said:

So let me ask a specific question:

I´ve got system with an AVR. I can control audio volume, select different inputs by selecting the according source player.
But just as an example, is it possible to display the selected surround mode on the remote? As an example, i´ve seen in the driver for a Trinnov audio processor that the driver provides feedback for that and i can react upon it with programming. But is it possible to display the status on the remote / touchpanel?

Funny, this is one thing I'm actually trying to figure out myself. We have surround in our family room and late at night, I'd like to either turn off surround, turn off the subwoofer or set up a sound profile to keep the volume down so it doesn't disturb the wife but so I can hear the dialog without blowing up the room when something loud happens.  I'm watching the responses for some ideas.  I was thinking about just setting something up on the SR260 that could toggle or cycle through one or two presets and have the room default to the main surround preset when I select that source.  But I'm only looking at two settings. If you're trying to cycle through Atmos, 5.1, DTS, etc. that probably wouldn't be the best option.

Following with interest . . . 

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24 minutes ago, Köhler Medientechnik said:

I don´t think it´s appropriate to do a judgement having seen just one (potentially poorly design and/or implemented) other system.

As other´s have stated before, it´s pretty easy to implement a terrible user experience with Crestron if done wrong.
But i really don´t want this thread to become a system´s war. Each system has it´s pros and cons and there are use cases for both of them.

Fair point in terms of my view on Crestron.  But they doesn’t take away from the fact that I am a very happy C4 user.

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Everything you’d want to happen when a room turns on can all be accomplished through programming.  In other words, there’s no need for the user to have to dive into each device to change settings.  Automate it all based on the source.

Other than Custom GUI, there’s not that much that C4 can’t do.

Once you get the flow of C4 and how to program it, you can accomplish just about anything.  Sometimes you do have to get creative in thinking of ways to fake the system so it does what you want, when you want it.

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1 hour ago, South Africa C4 user said:

Something like the Blackwire Emoji driver is useful in this case as you get 100s or built in ions to use,  I use this a lot to give me a (sort of) customized screen.

This is from a user programming standpoint though, just like Blackwire created that driver, it's possible to create full custom experience buttons 'manually' for a programmer.

It gets time consuming, and time means money so it's not done all that often - but from a programmer perspective, the Emoji driver is not that interesting other than a proof of concept (note that I say programmer, not dealer in this case -  not all (probably most) dealers are 'equipped' to do this sort of thing).

 

From OP's perspective, (s)he's not looking to give customers more tools to create their own customized user interface, but tools for them to create a custom interface for the user.

 

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19 minutes ago, lippavisual said:

Other than Custom GUI, there’s not that much that C4 can’t do.

Once you get the flow of C4 and how to program it, you can accomplish just about anything.  Sometimes you do have to get creative in thinking of ways to fake the system so it does what you want, when you want it.

Indeed. But the interface is what end-users have to deal with, and one shoe doesn't fit all.

Understand that I prefer the C4 method over Crestron in this, more so with the improvement they've introduced in and since 3.0.

SOOOOOO often those (dealers/installers - and I'm in no way saying OP is one of these!!) that rave about Crestron and other's ability to modify and customize interfaces are downright terrible at doing so (either it looks pretty abut works poorly, or gets so convoluted that it has a huge learning curve - or just plain looks ugly).

Reality is that most programmers cannot do graphic design, and most graphic designers cannot program (and a lot of either one are convinced they can do both).

Add to this that neither are commonly good at interpreting/translating end-user needs and requests to what is actually required.

To me this is where Control4 outclasses Crestron - they've taken away that 3-way clash (function, graphics/design and need/want) by having a well-designed user interface that cannot be messed with too much.

Oh sure there's things that could be improved, but it's a delicate balance to maintain between allowing some customization to fill needs of some and ensuring the interface is easy to use and set up.

But there are those (end-users) to whom full customization of the interface is the most important aspect of all (or at least they think it is) - so there's room for both.

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2 hours ago, lippavisual said:

Everything you’d want to happen when a room turns on can all be accomplished through programming.  In other words, there’s no need for the user to have to dive into each device to change settings.  Automate it all based on the source.

As i said, if you´re happy with full automation, then it might be ok. But if you want at least a bit of manual control, you´re quickly running out of options with C4. 

Not everything can be forced into a fixed scheme, some customers prefer to remain some level of personal choice. For instance some customers want to select an upmixer based on the actual content they are hearing not based based on source selection or audio track. The decision is just based on personal taste in that given moment.

Some things can´t be automated. 

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4 hours ago, Köhler Medientechnik said:

As i said, if you´re happy with full automation, then it might be ok. But if you want at least a bit of manual control, you´re quickly running out of options with C4. 

Not everything can be forced into a fixed scheme, some customers prefer to remain some level of personal choice. For instance some customers want to select an upmixer based on the actual content they are hearing not based based on source selection or audio track. The decision is just based on personal taste in that given moment.

Some things can´t be automated. 

Since you’re newer with C4, spend the time you need to learn the system.

Everything your customers could possibly need is possible.

Learn how to use experience buttons for now.

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