Wireless APs, Cable Modem, Networking recs and help needed.

[Jfizzle]

I am cutting the cord and switching to all streaming devices and would like input on cable modem and wireless APs. I am a networking noob, I see how my dealer has this presently set up but don't necessarily understand why / seems like could be more efficient.

Wireless Access Points:  I presently have 4 Ubiquiti Unifi AP-AC-PROs spread around the house, ethernet connections go back to an 8 port switch sitting above the cable modem in a closet.  The Wifi handoff on these is not good. I have 300 mbps internet download but can only get 20mbps or less out of the access points unless I'm right on top of them (and then I can get 100). House is two levels over 5000 sqft. Suggestions? I may want a new router to go with them, see below.

Router: Cable modem currently has a long ethernet run from a bedroom closet to the C4 Rack in a theater room and connects to a dealer installed Nighthawk R7000 router with Wireless turned off. Doesn't this make it a glorified switch? There is pakedge 16 port switch in the rack and it's full. This router sits in the rack and connects to the C4 controller and some other components. Seems like I could replace this router with a switch in the rack and move the router (or get a new router) and put it out in the open with Wireless turned on and then spread some APs around in other areas.

Cable Modem: I also want to buy a cable modem and stop leasing one from Xfinity for $14/mo. I am looking at a Nighthawk by netgear that can do cable and voice. I am in US and have xfinity and this seems compatible. Is there something else I should look for? Cable modem presently has Wireless turned off by my c4 installer and is located in a wall box in an upstairs closet so not a good place for wif coverage anyway. 

 https://www.netgear.com/home/products/networking/cable-modems-routers/CM1150V.aspx/?cid=us-nh-cable-srch-cpc&utm_source=search&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=us-nh-cable-srch-cpc

I've searched the forums for the last few days and looked at the mesh vs AP discussions and I don't think I want to go mesh. I've also read about Ruckus and Arkanis. Ruckus seems to get a lot of good recs but I'm not sure if it helps my handoff issue between wireless APs. Guidance welcome! thanks.

[OceanDad]

1. Ruckus Unleashed all the way for me. You won't need 4 in a 5000 square foot 2 level house unless you have some seriously thick walls/lots of metal.
2. But... first, check that 8 port switch that all your AC-PRO's are running back to, and make sure that it is in fact a gigabit switch.  I'm suspicious that it might be a 10/100 switch if you are only getting a max of 100 mbps.
3. That router in the C4 Rack (R7000) seems weird.  If it's not dishing out IP addresses, and it has its wireless turned off then it is indeed acting as a switch.  Is it in fact the DHCP server, or is the Xfinity modem acting as the router/DHCP server here ?
4. You can almost certainly do better than the junk modem that your ISP give you/hold you hostage with.
5. Definitely don't go mesh if you can avoid it, and you can.
6. I like the Araknis routers, subject to a caveat about the effects of heat.  Make sure that it gets well vented.  Others will have their own recommendations.

[Pounce]

I agree with checking the current AP's. I have 1 Uni AP covering 7000sqft from the basement pointing up no less. I suspect that your AP's are not tuned for the power and are over powering each other. You can try unplugging all but the 2 that are farthest away from each other or unplug the 3 that aren't the most central.

I would not purchase a cable model. I used to work for Comcast on cable modem provisioning. Owning your own modem can make service calls more of a hassle. Switch to Business class service. You get better hardware and better support/SLA. In some places the service is night and day different.

Consider a UDM from Ubiquiti.

[zaphod]

I would agree considering a router from Unifi given that you have other Unifi devices.  I have a USG but the UDM is a newer device that may make sense for you.

Cutting the cable makes this task much easier for you as when you still have cable you have to be careful about what you do with your network, at least if you have Comcast's IPTV solution, as the client boxes need to run on your LAN.

I actually have five APs in my house and one outside on my pool cabana as I had areas with poor coverage in the past.  I have manually set the channels and power levels to try to optimize but I have a large house with basement plus two floors.  Maybe I could have got away with fewer if I played around more but how much time do you want to spend on this when you can just buy another AP for less than $200?

[lippavisual]

Check what devices are connected to the WiFi. Older devices with slower nics will degrade your 2.4 network to the same speed for every device. That’s the nature of 2.4.  Only thing you can do is create a separate network for these slower/IOT devices so they aren’t stuck on your main WiFi.

Also, Ruckus unleashes will dramatically improve handoff between AP’s because there’s an actual controller that forces it.  UniFi does NOT do handoffs.  It drops the weak, then your device picks up the stronger AP. 

[Jfizzle]

Thanks for the advice everyone. I followed your collective advice:

1. @OceanDad Turns out the router in the rack is the DHCP server. All switches are gigabit.

2. @Pounce You were right! I removed one AC-PRO upstairs and adjusted 2.4 ghz to medium power and 5 ghz to high, put on channel 1, this improved overall upstairs wifi so everything is -31 to -69 dbm. I also adjusted the main downstairs AC-PRO to same power settings as above and moved to channel 11, everything now -55 to -70 dbm. A couple of IOT items farther away at the low end. Thanks for the advice!

3. I had a pretty bad wifi dead zone in my wife's office (recently converted from kid's playroom so we never noticed the wifi issue before), I put the AC-PRO I had removed from upstairs into her office and now she's good, just her phone and laptop are connecting and an amazon Alexa device.  Put her on channel 6 which is the busiest channel the neighbors are using but she's 3 feet from the access point and doesn't see any issues.

4. I checked the Outdoor Patio AC-PRO and it has zero traffic until someone walks outside with a phone. I put that one on channel 6 as well and tweaked power settings.

 

Gloriously, half the devices have now migrated to 5ghz band. I do have a lot if IOT devices in 2.4 ghz @lippavisual like roomba, ceiling fans, sprinkler controller, c4 stuff.  I may look into setting up a second 2.4 ghz SSID for IOT devices

After all these adjustments I am getting about 120 mbps if I'm in the room with an access point (up from 20), but only 140 mbps if I'm right on top of it. My xfinity plan is 300 mbps down and wired connection speed tests get that no problem. I bumped my plan up to 600 mbps and dropped the cable TV boxes from plan yesterday and am waiting for them to send me a new modem so I'll test again when it gets here. Hopefully new modem, more speed, plus an IOT 2.4ghz SSID do the trick. If not I may be swapping out for Ruckus.

Thank you again for the advice everyone.

[Pounce]

I love a happy ending

[lippavisual]

You’ll never see the 300mbps over WiFi. May get up to 240 but chances are unlikely.

Also depends on the wireless nic in your WiFi devices.  If it has a 5Gh card, start thinking about separating your 2.4 and 5 networks.

Meaning, SSID’s would become the following:

Main Wifi- 2.4

Main WiFi- 5

This will help to alleviate some traffic in 2.4 and steer your newer devices to only use 5.

If you get full coverage of 5 everywhere, don’t forget to then forget the 2.4 network on your device.  Otherwise, it will connect to it because 2.4 is inherently stronger than 5. 

[Jfizzle]

Thanks @lippavisual, I just created the two different networks, coverage seems good and it wasn't as hard figuring out the override and wlan stuff as i expected.

[Jakelay]

Good stuff - glad you figured it out! Just a quick tip I picked up if you have Apple devices, you can select the WiFi  network, click the info button and turn off ‘auto join’. That way you don’t have to re-enter the password each time you need to hop on the 2.4 network to add devices for example, but your device won’t hop back and forth between the two networks like Lippavisual mentioned above.

[ejn1]

On 7/14/2020 at 5:05 PM, Jfizzle said:

I am cutting the cord and switching to all streaming devices and would like input on cable modem and wireless APs. I am a networking noob, I see how my dealer has this presently set up but don't necessarily understand why / seems like could be more efficient.

Wireless Access Points:  I presently have 4 Ubiquiti Unifi AP-AC-PROs spread around the house, ethernet connections go back to an 8 port switch sitting above the cable modem in a closet.  The Wifi handoff on these is not good. I have 300 mbps internet download but can only get 20mbps or less out of the access points unless I'm right on top of them (and then I can get 100). House is two levels over 5000 sqft. Suggestions? I may want a new router to go with them, see below.

Router: Cable modem currently has a long ethernet run from a bedroom closet to the C4 Rack in a theater room and connects to a dealer installed Nighthawk R7000 router with Wireless turned off. Doesn't this make it a glorified switch? There is pakedge 16 port switch in the rack and it's full. This router sits in the rack and connects to the C4 controller and some other components. Seems like I could replace this router with a switch in the rack and move the router (or get a new router) and put it out in the open with Wireless turned on and then spread some APs around in other areas.

Cable Modem: I also want to buy a cable modem and stop leasing one from Xfinity for $14/mo. I am looking at a Nighthawk by netgear that can do cable and voice. I am in US and have xfinity and this seems compatible. Is there something else I should look for? Cable modem presently has Wireless turned off by my c4 installer and is located in a wall box in an upstairs closet so not a good place for wif coverage anyway. 

 https://www.netgear.com/home/products/networking/cable-modems-routers/CM1150V.aspx/?cid=us-nh-cable-srch-cpc&utm_source=search&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=us-nh-cable-srch-cpc

I've searched the forums for the last few days and looked at the mesh vs AP discussions and I don't think I want to go mesh. I've also read about Ruckus and Arkanis. Ruckus seems to get a lot of good recs but I'm not sure if it helps my handoff issue between wireless APs. Guidance welcome! thanks.

How are you running the Unifi Controller software?

[ejn1]

.

 

[ejn1]

5 hours ago, lippavisual said:

You’ll never see the 300mbps over WiFi. May get up to 240 but chances are unlikely.

Also depends on the wireless nic in your WiFi devices.  If it has a 5Gh card, start thinking about separating your 2.4 and 5 networks.

Meaning, SSID’s would become the following:

Main Wifi- 2.4

Main WiFi- 5

This will help to alleviate some traffic in 2.4 and steer your newer devices to only use 5.

If you get full coverage of 5 everywhere, don’t forget to then forget the 2.4 network on your device.  Otherwise, it will connect to it because 2.4 is inherently stronger than 5. 

I think you can do better than 300.... See below test with Iphone11 about 8 feet from my Unifi AP.   Agree its not normal conditions to get that high but possible.

 

 

[lippavisual]

13 hours ago, ejn1 said:

I think you can do better than 300.... See below test with Iphone11 about 8 feet from my Unifi AP.   Agree its not normal conditions to get that high but possible.

 

 

You’ll never see the same speed as what you get wired.  It also depends on the wireless devices, both yours and what’s installed for access points.

Interference plays a huge roll in any WiFi system too.  Live in a congested neighborhood, not a chance your getting overwhelming speeds.  Have a beautiful ranch out in Montana (Yellowstone on the mind), bobs your uncle.

[ekohn00]

I use the AP-AC-PROs spread around the house too. You didn't say how they're mounted (ceiling, wall, table, etc). But based on your experiments it sounds like you discovered settings make a difference, so does placement.

The dome shape provides best room coverage from the ceiling. that said, almost all of mine are on a table to top of furniture somewhat out of sight. I can easily get over 100mbps when connecting. Most of the devices are 200-300+ (iPhones laptops) throughout the house. I use one SSID for both 5 and 2.4, it connects to best signal. So same room is usually at 5g and further away in another room 2.4.

I would personally disconnect all but one AP and play around with the settings. until you get a good idea what it can do. Also under devices, go to the tools for the AP and scan the RF environment to see if there is any interfierance from any unknown APs in the area.

Oh, and those AP on operate floors if directly on top of each other (and laying flat) can and probably will interfere with each other.

If you eventually decide to go with a new FW/Router, I'd say +1 on the UDM. Having the same management platform does help a lot. I use the UDM-pro and it's a great box for the cost.

 

 

 

[ekohn00]

14 minutes ago, lippavisual said:

You’ll never see the same speed as what you get wired.  It also depends on the wireless devices, both yours and what’s installed for access points.

Interference plays a huge roll in any WiFi system too.  Live in a congested neighborhood, not a chance your getting overwhelming speeds.  Have a beautiful ranch out in Montana (Yellowstone on the mind), bobs your uncle.

you realize you went from "You’ll never see the 300mbps over WiFi. May get up to 240 but chances are unlikely" to "You’ll never see the same speed as what you get wired."

Not helpful, and not consistent. How does this help?

 

[ejn1]

Agree on router recommendations...  I have a UDM-Pro in my home and extremely happy with performance,  functionality and incredible value.    The 8 switch ports also come in handy as it lets me live with a 24 port main switch versus a deeper 48 port or the space of an additional switch.   Important to note that the UDM-Pro has dual WAN for failover or load balancing and the UDM doesnt.   Going to put the new beta Unifi Switch 6 over the weekend to pair with the UDM-Pro which has 2.5G ports to later pair with their new line of Wifi 6 APs that are currently in beta.   This will push wifi speeds further up.   In my second home around 1700 sq ft,  i just installed a UDM which I have been blown away by the package...   I use to have 2 AP's and a USG in this place and the single AP in UDM works amazingly well.   i think a lot of folks dont realize that more APs is not always better due to some of the interference issues mentioned above especially if you are not careful on AP power settings and placement.

One point to add is that if you want true speed vs coverage, then extend APs close to your primary work areas, eg home office and manually change your 5G frequencies to VHT80 or VHT160...   Your range will be short but speed a big jump over VHT40 bands on 5G.    You can even disable the 2.4G radio in some of these APs as 2.4 extends a lot further through walls and can be subject to interference and negative results.  

Starting with one AP is always a good approach as ek0hn00 mentions...

 

[lippavisual]

2 hours ago, ekohn00 said:

you realize you went from "You’ll never see the 300mbps over WiFi. May get up to 240 but chances are unlikely" to "You’ll never see the same speed as what you get wired."

Not helpful, and not consistent. How does this help?

 

The first comment is pertaining to his system, ie: 300mb down from isp  

The second comment is about WiFi in general.

pretty consistent and factual if you ask me.

[Jfizzle]

@ejn1 @ekohn00 I currently just have the controller software on a Mac and just turn it on/off when I need to do something. I don't run a guest network or vlans so I didn't think I needed a controller running the whole time.

The UDM you both suggest looks like a good idea. My Theater room has two half racks underneath cabinets in the back and the netgear router is in there (with wireless turned off) and an EA5 and other c4 stuff, that router its just acting like a switch and the DHCP server as I found out earlier in the thread. On the opposite side of the room is the TV and underneath that is a long cabinet with the an avr, an ea1, xbox, and a AC-PRO access point sits on top of it. 

So sounds like I have two decent options: 

1. Replace nighthawk r7000 and the pakedge 16 port switch in the rack with a UDM-PRO. Run a second line from cable modem to the UDM-PRO for the redundant WAN. Keep the access point on other side of theater room for the upstairs wifi.

2. Replace the r7000 out for a cheap 5 port gigabit switch, leave pakedge 16 port switch in place, and replace the access point on other side of room with a UDM and use it as combo router/security gateway/access point/ethernet ports for the EA1 and Xbox. So I guess the "pro" to this approach is peel off an AC-PRO for upstairs wifi and just use the UDM for wifi, my router now matches the access points, and it looks better sitting out than the dome shaped ap.

The UDM-PRO might be overkill, I'm not sure I need all the features. UDMs look around $300 and UDM-PROs around $400 so not a huge price difference. I'm pulling down the spec docs on both to read. If you guys have any UDM-PRO vs UDM thoughts based on my household use situation let me know.

After new modem is installed this week I'll try your advice of turning off all APs except one and play with the RF scanning.

Thanks again for all the help.

[ejn1]

1 hour ago, Jfizzle said:

@ejn1 @ekohn00 I currently just have the controller software on a Mac and just turn it on/off when I need to do something. I don't run a guest network or vlans so I didn't think I needed a controller running the whole time.

The UDM you both suggest looks like a good idea. My Theater room has two half racks underneath cabinets in the back and the netgear router is in there (with wireless turned off) and an EA5 and other c4 stuff, that router its just acting like a switch and the DHCP server as I found out earlier in the thread. On the opposite side of the room is the TV and underneath that is a long cabinet with the an avr, an ea1, xbox, and a AC-PRO access point sits on top of it. 

So sounds like I have two decent options: 

1. Replace nighthawk r7000 and the pakedge 16 port switch in the rack with a UDM-PRO. Run a second line from cable modem to the UDM-PRO for the redundant WAN. Keep the access point on other side of theater room for the upstairs wifi.

2. Replace the r7000 out for a cheap 5 port gigabit switch, leave pakedge 16 port switch in place, and replace the access point on other side of room with a UDM and use it as combo router/security gateway/access point/ethernet ports for the EA1 and Xbox. So I guess the "pro" to this approach is peel off an AC-PRO for upstairs wifi and just use the UDM for wifi, my router now matches the access points, and it looks better sitting out than the dome shaped ap.

The UDM-PRO might be overkill, I'm not sure I need all the features. UDMs look around $300 and UDM-PROs around $400 so not a huge price difference. I'm pulling down the spec docs on both to read. If you guys have any UDM-PRO vs UDM thoughts based on my household use situation let me know.

After new modem is installed this week I'll try your advice of turning off all APs except one and play with the RF scanning.

Thanks again for all the help.

You really need to be running the Unifi Controller software all the time as this is how Unifi hands devices over between AP's seemlessly when you move around the house.  The guest network is really not the main driver for running the controller software.   Good news is with the new UDM and UDM-Pro, the software is built in.   Main difference is Pro enables you to run Unifi Protect and has a hard drive bay to run the Pro as also an NVR.  It also has an 8 port switch and has dual WAN inputs, SFP+ (10GBe).   The UDM has a smaller switch built in, no SFP+, no dual WAN but does have an awesome AP built in the unit.   It does not have the Protect app built in either.   For me in a primary home setting where  you will have AP's spread out anyway, the $80 difference is a no brainer.   But, in a small home setting with no desire to run Video cameras on Unifi, then the UDM can be a stand alone single unit all in one with impressive performance.  In my second home, the UDM as stated before runs the entire home with the built in AP.  In the pic below, you can see how the UDM can integrate into a smaller wall wiring cabinet very cleanly.  The PRO works best in a rack.

[zaphod]

@ejn1 - Nice cable porn!  My wiring always looks like crap.

[ejn1]

3 hours ago, Jfizzle said:

@ejn1 @ekohn00 I currently just have the controller software on a Mac and just turn it on/off when I need to do something. I don't run a guest network or vlans so I didn't think I needed a controller running the whole time.

The UDM you both suggest looks like a good idea. My Theater room has two half racks underneath cabinets in the back and the netgear router is in there (with wireless turned off) and an EA5 and other c4 stuff, that router its just acting like a switch and the DHCP server as I found out earlier in the thread. On the opposite side of the room is the TV and underneath that is a long cabinet with the an avr, an ea1, xbox, and a AC-PRO access point sits on top of it. 

So sounds like I have two decent options: 

1. Replace nighthawk r7000 and the pakedge 16 port switch in the rack with a UDM-PRO. Run a second line from cable modem to the UDM-PRO for the redundant WAN. Keep the access point on other side of theater room for the upstairs wifi.

2. Replace the r7000 out for a cheap 5 port gigabit switch, leave pakedge 16 port switch in place, and replace the access point on other side of room with a UDM and use it as combo router/security gateway/access point/ethernet ports for the EA1 and Xbox. So I guess the "pro" to this approach is peel off an AC-PRO for upstairs wifi and just use the UDM for wifi, my router now matches the access points, and it looks better sitting out than the dome shaped ap.

The UDM-PRO might be overkill, I'm not sure I need all the features. UDMs look around $300 and UDM-PROs around $400 so not a huge price difference. I'm pulling down the spec docs on both to read. If you guys have any UDM-PRO vs UDM thoughts based on my household use situation let me know.

After new modem is installed this week I'll try your advice of turning off all APs except one and play with the RF scanning.

Thanks again for all the help.

ps, once you try a Unifi switch to go with the UDM Pro, you wont want to go back again    I have several of them across my 2 sites and having them integrated into the controller and app software allows for amazing control and customization.

[ekohn00]

9 hours ago, ejn1 said:

ps, once you try a Unifi switch to go with the UDM Pro, you wont want to go back again    I have several of them across my 2 sites and having them integrated into the controller and app software allows for amazing control and customization.

If you don't need cameras and phone, the UDM might be the way to go. UDM-PRO is much faster, and for me running 1G FIOS the option I had to take. At 300MB you might save a few dollar if there's a budget. For the $100 I'd actually go UDM-PRO, knowing all the FW features could be running with no noticeable hit in speed.

 

[Jfizzle]

I don't need the cameras as I have a new Luma DVR. My current set up is a 16-port pakedge switch, 4 port Nighthawk r7000 router, and 4 ethernet lines that need a home so I can have IP tv control (because I'm getting rid of video matrix I can take advantage of the ethernet lines that formerly ran to baluns behind the TVs).

Option 1: Replace Router with UDM, add a second whatever brand 8-port switch to take the 4 lines that were going to old router and 4 lines that need a home. This is the least work intensive. The UDM can sit out and I can marvel at its beauty.

Option 2: Replace router with UDM-PRO in the rack, move the 4 cables from the router to the pro, and move the 4 ethernet lines that need a home to the pro, and keep the pakedge 16-port where it is. Is there any "issue" with this? 

Option 3: Replace router with UDM-Pro. Replace pakedge 16-port with a unif 24-port switch. @ejn1 @ekohn00 is there an  advantage to swapping out the pakedge switch with a unifi? If so does it matter which one? is it redundant to do this and the UDM-pro?

I was initially leaning toward the UDM but  from your advice and the specs I think locking in the availability of the increased speed on the UDM-pro is better future proofing even if my internet plan is only going to 600mbps (although for an extra $10 I can get 1000 mbps so....).

I will at some point have to break it to my wife that my "savings" from cutting the cable cord and not replacing the 8x8 video matrix is being diverted to enhanced networking devices... 

[zaphod]

The other advantage of the UDM-Pro is that it is rack mountable, whereas the UDB looks like a smart speaker. 

On the downside with either of these vs a USG(Pro), I am not 100% sure that I like the idea of the Controller being run on they UDM-Pro which is also a router and a switch as it makes your system somewhat less modular. If you have a hardware issue with the UDM then you have to swap out your controller as well.  I kind of like the way it works currently where I run the Controller in a Docker Container on my server.