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Should I ditch C4?


am350z

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Just a thought, but would you recommend C4 if control was the only desire?   Not automation but just simple system control. 

Background.  In our current home we replaced Crestron with C4.  It has been fine but certainly not without issues.  Loss of MyQ support, dead C4 Audio matrix, Jandy pool control never worked well, Trane hvac control is not great, loss of full Sonos support, etc.  We are purchasing a new house with a partially abandoned C4 system.  (Also, a pile of Crestron equipment in corner.  Unfortunately, I see this very often.)  I don't particularly care for automation but primarily had C4 installed for a single source for system control.  I am really questioning just ditching C4 in the new house and going with standalone native control for various systems.  Sure it is a pain to use multiple apps though this may improve as Homekit expands.  The native apps are often better anyways. Example, use native Nexia for HVAC, Sonos for whole home audio, Lutron for lighting, etc. I love tech but these automation systems seem to be more and more of a pain and headache.  This has been a great forum and just curious what others thoughts are.   Maybe just have a small system for the theater and not whole home automation.

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Have tried that route and there are great remote programmers and support here.  Still requires maintenance and work to keep fully running.  Example, I just gave up on the MyQ and no longer have garage door support in C4.  When Sonos support went away, the family just started using Alexa devices and now ignore the in ceiling speakers.   One day the projector stopped responding.  HC800 RF port went out and had to switch to IR.  No big deal but one more issue.

 

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As a customer I've had the C4 system installed since 2014.  Before that I had a bunch disparate IOT apps and don't care for that at all.  Having a single unified system has been beneficial.  IMHO Alot of the system's function and reliability is based upon your integrator.  I switched to one a few years ago and they've greatly enhanced the system and using C4 an enjoyable experience.  

On top of that we have frequent visitors to our home and having to have a remote (NEEO) in the guest rooms that controls everything (lights, shades, video, music, HVAC, ceiling fans) as well as C4 keypads for scenes has been great.  It eliminates the need to have them installing apps on their phone or using a bunch of other things when in their room or out in the backyard to turn the music on; can just one app on a remote that's the same and unified across the entire home

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In our case, the integrators have been great.  Its just when an api link is no longer supported, example MyQ, there is nothing anyone could have done. C4, and all automation, relies heavily on support of 3rd party products which means there will likely be constant issues to address. 

I do agree for guests the system is amazing, particularly controlling AV equipment where the alternatives such as Harmony remotes just don't cut it.

 

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14 minutes ago, am350z said:

In our case, the integrators have been great.  Its just when an api link is no longer supported, example MyQ, there is nothing anyone could have done. C4, and all automation, relies heavily on support of 3rd party products which means there will likely be constant issues to address. 

I do agree for guests the system is amazing, particularly controlling AV equipment where the alternatives such as Harmony remotes just don't cut it.

 

you've referred to MyQ a few times.  I still have the driver and it works fine - at least as of last night it still worked fine.  For a few bucks you can also get some sensors to put on the door, a spare relay, and you are in business again - probably less than $300 in parts and quick remote programming.

What I have learned - stick with c4 drivers or 3rd party drivers with direct support from the vendor of the product of integration.  If you look at MyQ's website they do not list C4.  But say look at NuHeat - they mention c4 and its a paid driver (just 1 of 10,000's of examples).  The good thing is C4 is going through the driver database and talking with 3rd party drivers and mandating unsupported aka hacked 3rd party drivers cease to be sold.  So I think the 3rd party headaches should be minimized over time.

What does sonos offer that native C4 is not offering you?  You mentioned a matrix breaking, I mean I've had C4 hardware since 2013 and here I go cursing myself, the failure rate has been almost non existent.  But yes, things do break over time.

If I had to do my home again I'd still go with C4.  Maybe plan it out a bit different and make a few small changes here and there but overall the platform has a lot of power, lots of integration partners and there is enough DIY to keep me happy and enough dealer support where I can throw in the towel and just get it working right if its above my pay grade or I am just too busy.  People do complain about not being able to add their own devices but honestly, how often are you adding a TV or a light switch or something.  When people complain about that I wonder how often they buy hardware.  When I started with c4 I had 4 Tvs, after 6 years I added a 5th TV.  

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Surprised your MyQ is working, must have been different driver.  I know many had same issue.  I agree its easy fix (minus running wire which isn't so easy!)

I agree better to stick with official c4 drivers but even that is problematic.  For instance, they support Honeywell vista panels but not the larger 128bpt panel.  And while Jandy pool control is also supported, there has been a bug in the driver they never fixed that makes it not great either. 

Sonos offers Apple Music and Amazon which I prefer.  Also, generally prefer the gui in Sonos over C4. 

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To be fair - we use C4 to bring all the apps together

  • Sonos 
  • Hue Lights 
  • Q Motion Shades 
  • Axis Gear
  • Alexa 
  • House Alarm
  • CCTV

We have DS2 and the intercom as become some much better with the new app and T3 Touchscreen upgrades 

If you keep the C4 bits to a minimum and have the C4 controller and HE you have the best of both worlds - Bit DIY and a system which brings it all together.

A Good remote dealer is Key and we have found one (Crustyloafer )

Plus our local AV guys now have trained staff who will log in set up the TV/AVR etc FOC just get the sale of the equipment. 

Its worth a go - Just take baby steps this time 

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If you do no particularly care for automation, I would say run as far and fast from Control 4 as you can.

I don't have the time nor the inclination to become a geek to the point of programming anything. With Control 4, I am tied to the hip with our "integrator" every time something goes south. And that is often.  My system has been in for a year and a half in a new house and I have disabled half of the controllability because things never work right. And guess when they don't work, during Super Bowl, the Masters, etc. You can do most of what Control 4 does with standalone systems and if you are inclined to do that, go with it. 

I'm in the process of designing a new house now and I've interviewed 3 "integrators" and I can feel my blood pressure begin to rise just listening to them. And here is going to be the pitch from everyone that loves C4, you need a good "integrator"! Well guess what, you won't know how good the guy is until he is finished and that's too late. 

Good luck!!

 

 

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Networking is another major issue.  C4 needs a robust network, not consumer grade.  Heaven forbid your router goes out.  Mine did, what a giant pain that was.  My intention is not to bash C4 though, its as good as any automation system, just some thoughts and discussion. 

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I did not "ditch" it, but almost. I use Lutron for lights and shades, Ecobee thermostats, Airplay2/Sonos for sound, and HomeKit to integrate it all. C4 is pretty much an expensive TV remote. I do use it for some automation (motion sensors). 

It was an easy decision for me. I watched my family use our tech, based on C4, for 4 years. The only C4 equipment they used was the SR-260 remote (and the HC-250, later an EA-3 of course driving it). Perhaps it was just happenstance that I bought receivers that embraced Spotify and Airplay, but my family never used C4 audio. They airplay'ed right out of the music app. They "spotified" right out of the Spotify app -- and got instance gratification. Whereas "shairbridge" and C4 was a complete bust along with the C4 app. It looked cool, having all those Airplay targets but it was too delayed, or too glitchy, or it just didn't work. The whole time Airplay, Spotify Connect, and other network based sources worked great if you took C4 out of the mix.

They still like to hit the red button and oooh and ahhh over the OSD occasionally. But with the crazy number of channels, even the 260 (and NEEO) are often on the sidelines. They'll grab a voice remote instead.

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for me i am really trying to steer clear of the cloud services if I can.  I am not always able,  but if I have to I am trying as others said to make sure they are on the supported list.

For myQ I ended up using some Nyce tilt sensors on my doors and soldered an extra remote and wired it to the contact switch on my EA controller.  the remote lives in the rack with my EA controller.  Only issue here could be range, it isn't for me.  Take a remote to your rack and test it.  or else use a z2io near your opener.  No need to run wires from the opener to the rack in either case.

I'm also going to be ditching my Ring doorbell, what a steaming pile that is.  I going with local hardware and wiring.  Haven't decided what hardware yet. Probably a security cam and the elk sensor.  if I can get cat5 to right spot i might try some kind of door station.

It has become a basic design principle for me.

agree on the integrator front, you don't know a bad one until they are done.  Everyone promises similar.  I just kept moving on util I landed with a good one.  If they don't know more than one way to do something and can't give you options, it raises red flags.  For MyQ we tried the cloud, wink, liftmaster driver, but the method i'm using now has worked out the best.  My dealer and I tried to go easy but he had options for me and didn't keep trying to shove the same crappy solution at me.

i think understanding what design principals are important to you will help avoid mistakes, too bad it took me a few mistakes to figure that out.  That all said, i have certainly wondered what are we doing with all this and why.

 

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51 minutes ago, BirdieGolf said:

If you do no particularly care for automation, I would say run as far and fast from Control 4 as you can.

I don't have the time nor the inclination to become a geek to the point of programming anything. With Control 4, I am tied to the hip with our "integrator" every time something goes south. And that is often.  My system has been in for a year and a half in a new house and I have disabled half of the controllability because things never work right. And guess when they don't work, during Super Bowl, the Masters, etc. You can do most of what Control 4 does with standalone systems and if you are inclined to do that, go with it. 

I'm in the process of designing a new house now and I've interviewed 3 "integrators" and I can feel my blood pressure begin to rise just listening to them. And here is going to be the pitch from everyone that loves C4, you need a good "integrator"! Well guess what, you won't know how good the guy is until he is finished and that's too late. 

Good luck!!

 

 

You spoke to 3 integrators.  Did you ask any for references to speak to with a similar sized project?  I mean you likely ask for references for an architect or a builder/overall GC.  So do the same to find a good integrator.  If you did kudos to you - you should have a smoother experience this time around.  

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30 minutes ago, am350z said:

Networking is another major issue.  C4 needs a robust network, not consumer grade.  Heaven forbid your router goes out.  Mine did, what a giant pain that was.  My intention is not to bash C4 though, its as good as any automation system, just some thoughts and discussion. 

"It's the network." It certainly can be, but this is the most over-used excuse ever.

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43 minutes ago, am350z said:

Networking is another major issue.  C4 needs a robust network, not consumer grade.  Heaven forbid your router goes out.  Mine did, what a giant pain that was.  My intention is not to bash C4 though, its as good as any automation system, just some thoughts and discussion. 

Add a bunch of IoT devices without c4 and you have the same issue.  Sonos is known for flooding networks and bringing them to a halt.  C4 or no c4 - add IoT devices and good luck with a 80 router

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1 hour ago, am350z said:

Surprised your MyQ is working, must have been different driver.  I know many had same issue.  I agree its easy fix (minus running wire which isn't so easy!)

I agree better to stick with official c4 drivers but even that is problematic.  For instance, they support Honeywell vista panels but not the larger 128bpt panel.  And while Jandy pool control is also supported, there has been a bug in the driver they never fixed that makes it not great either. 

Sonos offers Apple Music and Amazon which I prefer.  Also, generally prefer the gui in Sonos over C4. 

You don’t need to run wires out of the garage to make myq work FYI it 

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17 minutes ago, Elvis said:

"It's the network." It certainly can be, but this is the most over-used excuse ever.

Overused, sure, but it's also the number 1 reason home automation/control systems don't work.

Look, do what you want in the end. But if you want easy control over a complete house, no DIY system will do everything you want (unless you're there to work on it 24/7).

Biggest issue that I see in this thread is that people are trying to control devices that don't want to be controlled.

YOU CANNOT expect to 'have all this stuff' and just have it work (C4, ELAN, Crestron, whatever - doesn't matter).

OP, you've had the worst luck. Sonos, MyQ...

But in the end, the problem with those is still the 'other' party.

SONOS broke the old API (and implemented a poor excuse of a replacement).

MyQ made the changes, and has since stated they are refusing to create an official API.

Why complain that C4 doesn't have the 124+ zone honeywell, when there are alternatives available (and no, you cannot tell me those alternatives are worse -or better- in any particular way.?

 

If you're building a new system, match the devices with what works best. Don't look at the device first, look at the integration first. MOST MAYOR brand devices that don't integrate well don't integrate well because they aren't able or willing to MAKE it work well on their side.

 

Yep, I'm sure this post will get some 'hate' - but you don't have to like the truth.

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1 hour ago, am350z said:

 

Good to know about Hayward but doesn't help if you have Jandy, lol. 

I have my Jandy controller integrated and it works fine.  But I use the RS232 serial interface to communicate,  not the iAquaLink one over IP. I was told by my C4 integrator at the time that the serial one works better. 

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20 minutes ago, dinom said:

I have my Jandy controller integrated and it works fine.  But I use the RS232 serial interface to communicate,  not the iAquaLink one over IP. I was told by my C4 integrator at the time that the serial one works better. 

Interesting.  I had the rs232 when we had Crestron but upgraded to the iAqualink when we switched to c4.  There is a known issue with it and reporting of heater status discussed a bit here but never fixed by c4.

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just as another point of reference, I have my garage with MyQ working just fine, i believe it is with the Cinegration driver.  I have had no problems with it since I have had it.  However i undersand your point that since it is a driver based on an unofficial API, it could potentially break at any time.

Also, my Jandy iqualink 2.0 is working perfectly as well.  (I haven't noticed any issues with the heater status, but maybe I am not paying close enough attention to its status).

Both of these are connected (wirelessly) through my Unifi network, and have been rock solid.  

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1 hour ago, am350z said:

Sure I can use another third party hack driver until it breaks again.

Nope not needed.  A wireless c4 relay with an extra myq remote.  And then NYCE tilt sensors on the door 

there is even a website that sells the remote with the wires already solder on so you just to put those end wires into the c4 wireless relay.  

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