Help Me Pick C4 Installer

[Control4Savant]

20 minutes ago, ClassicMuscle said:

Seems like alot of people in favor of JAP on this thread?  Why doesn't everyone just use JAP then?  Why are these video matrix's even still being used is they are so non scalable and more prone to being inexpensive when something breaks, etc?  I am about to place the order and am still on the fence to go with Jap or Matrix.  We typically only use 4 sources, 2 cable boxes and 2 Apple TVs.  And we are currently doing video into 4 zones and I don't really think we'll add more zones down the line.  But still go with JAP even for that?  

There are a lot of reasons.  A big one being that video over IP solutions need software/programmer/lic. HDBT is pretty much plug and play. 

A larger distribution system has more needs, more cost, more service. Video over IP systems solve a lot of issues for the installers and customization for the end uses needs. Upgrading a system like that over time is easier to deal with. 

On the flip side, the extreme cabilities of the AVPro gear will never be utilized by your cable boxes and probably hardly used if ever on the AppleTV steamers. Do you care about the most pure picture? 

Both are probably overkill for you in that sense but I am just giving you comparative responses. Video over IP is a cost level for my projects... There are equally capable HDBT options that are not as expensive. 

[ClassicMuscle]

On 1/16/2021 at 9:29 PM, Dave w said:

Only thing to add to above is ask them about the Origin Acoustic landscape speakers for outdoor area.  They are a Billings times better than the Episodes and 1/2 a million times better than sonance in sound quality and build quality.   

So Sonance is a better speaker than Episode?  What about Sonance Vs Triad for in ceiling speakers, which is generally better?  

[Control4Savant]

3 minutes ago, lippavisual said:

Most, if not all, video is produced and recorded at 30Hz.  The human eye can not perceive the difference between 30/60.  Only test equipment can show the difference between the 2.

Sure.

[Control4Savant]

2 minutes ago, ClassicMuscle said:

So Sonance is a better speaker than Episode?  What about Sonance Vs Triad for in ceiling speakers, which is generally better?  

These are opinions, not facts. All of these are equal unless you are shopping for more expensive speakers . 

[Topspin14m]

25 minutes ago, ClassicMuscle said:

Seems like alot of people in favor of JAP on this thread?  Why doesn't everyone just use JAP then?  Why are these video matrix's even still being used is they are so non scalable and more prone to being inexpensive when something breaks, etc?  I am about to place the order and am still on the fence to go with Jap or Matrix.  We typically only use 4 sources, 2 cable boxes and 2 Apple TVs.  And we are currently doing video into 4 zones and I don't really think we'll add more zones down the line.  But still go with JAP even for that?  

I think most people do use video over IP in these setups due to the fact that have have a few pretty long runs and HDMI isn't going to get the job done reliably over longer distances (40-50+ feet).  Otherwise, in day-to-day usage, you aren't going to find a huge difference between an HDMI matrix and a video over IP setup.  If HDMI 2.1 were out in real force (longer cables and matrix systems), HDMI would be far preferable due to its superior bandwidth, but that isn't the case today.

[Control4Savant]

6 minutes ago, Topspin14m said:

I think most people do use video over IP in these setups due to the fact that have have a few pretty long runs and HDMI isn't going to get the job done reliably over longer distances (40-50+ feet).  Otherwise, in day-to-day usage, you aren't going to find a huge difference between an HDMI matrix and a video over IP setup.  If HDMI 2.1 were out in real force (longer cables and matrix systems), HDMI would be far preferable due to its superior bandwidth, but that isn't the case today.

Just to clarify, the comparison is between video over IP and HDBT which is also ran over CATx cable for runs of 100+ ft...

[Topspin14m]

43 minutes ago, AVNeeds said:

Just to clarify, the comparison is between video over IP and HDBT which is also ran over CATx cable for runs of 100+ ft...

Ahh I saw HDMI matrix and thought we were talking about HDMI runs.  Is there a bandwidth advantage to JAP's system?\

EDIT:  OP this may help - https://www.justaddpower.com/blog/2016/06/hdmi-over-ip-vs-hdbaset-some-differences/ .  Basically video quality will be the same (both have the same limitations).

[Control4Savant]

10 minutes ago, Topspin14m said:

Ahh I saw HDMI matrix and thought we were talking about HDMI runs.  Is there a bandwidth advantage to JAP's system?

JAP is just limited to its physical network. I can "stack" a half a dozen L3 network switches together in different locations or even structures w/ fibre links over 100's and 100's of feet of distance to act as single system. This isn't something a lot of people need, even in a larger automation system, especially with "cord cutting" and streaming only systems where having a local streamer per display makes more sense and is usually far cheaper. 

[istreich]

As somebody mentioned before, central distribution made a lot of sense when devices were bulky and expensive. Is it always necessary? A Roku device that costs a maximum $99 (often way less) that can offer access to pretty much any TV service needed, including core channels, live sports (using for ex YoutubeTV, Sling,...) and obviously all movies and TV series streaming services (Netflix, Hulu, Vudu, Apple TV, HBO Max,...) with minimal limitations of concurrent streams. They are tiny and perfectly controlled by Control4. Most users don't play DVDs anymore and don't need access to a Satellite or Cable receiver thanks to services above. 

One caveat is audio and it will depend on each situation. But again, there may be very elegant and cost effective solutions to have high quality audio for those TVs, well managed by Control4 without the need to deploy a complex and expensive HDMI matrix...

I am not advocating against that approach but a strong internet connection, solid WiFi coverage, a few Roku devices, possibly an Audio Matrix and most importantly a great Control4 programer/installer may be a great way to save a lot of money, minimize complexity (and ongoing support costs) and offer an excellent user experience. 

[Topspin14m]

5 minutes ago, AVNeeds said:

JAP is just limited to its physical network. I can "stack" a half a dozen L3 network switches together in different locations or even structures w/ fibre links over 100's and 100's of feet of distance to act as single system. This isn't something a lot of people need, even in a larger automation system, especially with "cord cutting" and streaming only systems where having a local streamer per display makes more sense and is usually far cheaper. 

Thanks.  I may make another thread, but I'm building out a new system of my own and really wondering if I need distributed video.  It's so expensive and I can hide mini cable boxes behind every TV (actually have boxes in the wall for them).  But I feel like without it, you are really limited in the Control4 experience (e.g. I assume you cannot have the Control4 overlay on your TVs, I assume the audio component is harder to control, and all that).  Seems like a much more complicated decision than it was 5 years ago...

[zaphod]

There has been no discussion here of Videostorm Netplay.  That seems like an interesting solution as well and requires much less hardware than the two options that have been the bulk of the discussion in this thread.

[Topspin14m]

4 minutes ago, istreich said:

As somebody mentioned before, central distribution made a lot of sense when devices were bulky and expensive. Is it always necessary? A Roku device that costs a maximum $99 (often way less) that can offer access to pretty much any TV service needed, including core channels, live sports (using for ex YoutubeTV, Sling,...) and obviously all movies and TV series streaming services (Netflix, Hulu, Vudu, Apple TV, HBO Max,...) with minimal limitations of concurrent streams. They are tiny and perfectly controlled by Control4. Most users don't play DVDs anymore and don't need access to a Satellite or Cable receiver thanks to services above. 

One caveat is audio and it will depend on each situation. But again, there may be very elegant and cost effective solutions to have high quality audio for those TVs, well managed by Control4 without the need to deploy a complex and expensive HDMI matrix...

I am not advocating against that approach but a strong internet connection, solid WiFi coverage, a few Roku devices, possibly an Audio Matrix and most importantly a great Control4 programer/installer may be a great way to save a lot of money, minimize complexity (and ongoing support costs) and offer an excellent user experience. 

You said it even better than my post (which I was writing as you wrote this).  As someone trying to decide which route to go, it's a big debate for me...  Most people seem to take it as a give-in that central video distribution is best, but I'm also concerned that I miss out on DV at 60 hz, 4K 4:4:4 and even 120 hz gaming.  You pay for these really expensive 2021 TVs and you can't even use HDMI 2.1...plus you have to buy thousands of dollars in added equipment for the distribution.  But on the other hand, the whole point of these expensive home automation systems is to automate everything together and I worry that without video distribution, you miss out on a key component of that ease of use.

[Control4Savant]

Just now, Topspin14m said:

Thanks.  I may make another thread, but I'm building out a new system of my own and really wondering if I need distributed video.  It's so expensive and I can hide mini cable boxes behind every TV (actually have boxes in the wall for them).  But I feel like without it, you are really limited in the Control4 experience (e.g. I assume you cannot have the Control4 overlay on your TVs, I assume the audio component is harder to control, and all that).  Seems like a much more complicated decision than it was 5 years ago...

Depending on how many TVs you have and what your bill is for the boxes, it is most likely not worth it. You will indeed not be able to have a C4 on screen UI unless you purchase an EA1 for each display which could possibly be cheaper still versus distributed video.  IMO an TV on screen UI is seriously overrated and not even used in most other automation systems. With apps and touch screens, you shouldn't have any "lesser" of an experience. Feel free to PM me if you have other specific questions. 

[Control4Savant]

20 minutes ago, Topspin14m said:

You said it even better than my post (which I was writing as you wrote this).  As someone trying to decide which route to go, it's a big debate for me...  Most people seem to take it as a give-in that central video distribution is best, but I'm also concerned that I miss out on DV at 60 hz, 4K 4:4:4 and even 120 hz gaming.  You pay for these really expensive 2021 TVs and you can't even use HDMI 2.1...plus you have to buy thousands of dollars in added equipment for the distribution.  But on the other hand, the whole point of these expensive home automation systems is to automate everything together and I worry that without video distribution, you miss out on a key component of that ease of use.

Todays expensive TVs should not have anything to do with 8k or 2.1. We are years off from any of that making if any little difference. We hardly have decent 4k content that's widely available and even the differences between those are argued. Adding to the specifics/settings needed to make those features truly exist..those type of zones really should be "localize" even in full scale smart homes. With that said, the whole point of the scalable IP system is to be able to upgrade  pieces later on without needing to change the core or all of the parts. The Transmitters/Receivers are what deicide the capabilities. With a matrix you are limited to its capabilities as well as the HDBT balun capabilities. 

Unfortunately for you a small 4X4 is really a gray area since thats a standard matrix size and there are lots of options. I am not a Videostorm fan at all. I would suggest MoIP as another IP option since that is SnapAVs/C4s brand and the OVRC is great. Snaps Binary stuff is great for the price with lots of options... Atlona is usually my matrix go to. 

[eggzlot]

1 hour ago, AVNeeds said:

There is a noticeable difference in 30vs60hz IMO...not that 30 cant be thoroughly enjoyed.

to each his own and I can respect your opinion. 

I've done blind A/B testing and cannot pull call out 30 vs 60 even while wearing my glasses that give me "perfect" vision give or take (I've done it 2x at 2 different locations).  There are studies online giving their opinion on both sides of the argument.  I personally think its just a # people chase, like the new 8k TV sets .  If companies want to sell hardware they need to bump up the specs so you feel your stuff is "old" and get the upgrade urge.  At some point you are chasing diminishing returns.  

[Control4Savant]

Just now, eggzlot said:

to each his own and I can respect your opinion. 

I've done blind A/B testing and cannot pull call out 30 vs 60 even while wearing my glasses that give me "perfect" vision give or take (I've done it 2x at 2 different locations).  There are studies online giving their opinion on both sides of the argument.  I personally think its just a # people chase, like the new 8k TV sets .  If companies want to sell hardware they need to bump up the specs so you feel your stuff is "old" and get the upgrade urge.  At some point you are chasing diminishing returns.  

100%. It's definitely the line I don't pass... it's more of the motion thing on a very large screen and the mind trick with motion blur.

[eggzlot]

40 minutes ago, Topspin14m said:

Thanks.  I may make another thread, but I'm building out a new system of my own and really wondering if I need distributed video.  It's so expensive and I can hide mini cable boxes behind every TV (actually have boxes in the wall for them).  But I feel like without it, you are really limited in the Control4 experience (e.g. I assume you cannot have the Control4 overlay on your TVs, I assume the audio component is harder to control, and all that).  Seems like a much more complicated decision than it was 5 years ago...

I have distributed Video via Video Storm.  three big reasons for distribution:

a) ascetics are in play with hiding cable boxes
b) you want to sync a source in various rooms in your house at once - you cannot do this with Roku/apple TV, etc on their own - there is always some sort of delay
c) ability to play audio from centralized sources in audio only rooms - example - when we host people for a big sporting event i can pipe the game audio from the cable box onto the patio speakers, bathroom speakers, etc - places without TV and its all in sync
d) easier to "manage" apps - I can change a password/install an app on my android TV and its shared on all Tvs in the house.  make a password change to netflix on a 10 tv house without centralization and you need to go update netflix passwords on 10 tvs.  

if you have a mostly cord cutting house and you just watch your own content off an app on a TV, the needs for centralization are lower.

[eggzlot]

41 minutes ago, zaphod said:

There has been no discussion here of Videostorm Netplay.  That seems like an interesting solution as well and requires much less hardware than the two options that have been the bulk of the discussion in this thread.

I have VS - not sure its "less" hardware.  maybe for IP cameras, but otherwise you mostly need a VRX/Android TV at each TV (either hardware or a license) and then a VTX or 3rd party device to serve up the content.  Maybe a little cheaper and flexible, but not sure its much less hardware.

[eggzlot]

41 minutes ago, Topspin14m said:

You said it even better than my post (which I was writing as you wrote this).  As someone trying to decide which route to go, it's a big debate for me...  Most people seem to take it as a give-in that central video distribution is best, but I'm also concerned that I miss out on DV at 60 hz, 4K 4:4:4 and even 120 hz gaming.  You pay for these really expensive 2021 TVs and you can't even use HDMI 2.1...plus you have to buy thousands of dollars in added equipment for the distribution.  But on the other hand, the whole point of these expensive home automation systems is to automate everything together and I worry that without video distribution, you miss out on a key component of that ease of use.

if you are a serious gamer you'll want to do local gaming, and therefore just plug the console in directly to the TV.

[ClassicMuscle]

6 minutes ago, eggzlot said:

I have distributed Video via Video Storm.  three big reasons for distribution:

a) ascetics are in play with hiding cable boxes
b) you want to sync a source in various rooms in your house at once - you cannot do this with Roku/apple TV, etc on their own - there is always some sort of delay
c) ability to play audio from centralized sources in audio only rooms - example - when we host people for a big sporting event i can pipe the game audio from the cable box onto the patio speakers, bathroom speakers, etc - places without TV and its all in sync
d) easier to "manage" apps - I can change a password/install an app on my android TV and its shared on all Tvs in the house.  make a password change to netflix on a 10 tv house without centralization and you need to go update netflix passwords on 10 tvs.  

if you have a mostly cord cutting house and you just watch your own content off an app on a TV, the needs for centralization are lower.

 

On b) and  C), is that an argument for JAP or a video matrix?  Or can both do that?  

[zaphod]

3 minutes ago, eggzlot said:

I have VS - not sure its "less" hardware.  maybe for IP cameras, but otherwise you mostly need a VRX/Android TV at each TV (either hardware or a license) and then a VTX or 3rd party device to serve up the content.  Maybe a little cheaper and flexible, but not sure its much less hardware.

With the other solutions don't you need a dedicated ethernet (or HDMI) cable for each room run back to your equipment room?  You don't need that for VS as you can just use your existing ethernet wiring and then only need one drop per room.  Plus you don't need a dedicated switch the way that you do for JAP, etc. So that is what I meant by  hardware - cabling plus a switch or matrix switch. If you don't have the cabling then solving that problem can be a pain and be expensive.

[msgreenf]

9 minutes ago, zaphod said:

With the other solutions don't you need a dedicated ethernet (or HDMI) cable for each room run back to your equipment room?  You don't need that for VS as you can just use your existing ethernet wiring and then only need one drop per room.  Plus you don't need a dedicated switch the way that you do for JAP, etc. So that is what I meant by  hardware - cabling plus a switch or matrix switch. If you don't have the cabling then solving that problem can be a pain and be expensive.

Have you used VS? Your opinion may be different if you have. 

[zaphod]

No I have not used it so it would be interesting to hear if this is not the case.  Are you implying that you still need a dedicated run for VS?

[msgreenf]

17 minutes ago, zaphod said:

No I have not used it so it would be interesting to hear if this is not the case.  Are you implying that you still need a dedicated run for VS?

I'm not imply that you do - you don't. but I'm implying that you shouldn't recommend solutions you don't have experience with.  The solution of VS is pretty complex to configure and get operating.

[zaphod]

I wasn't recommending it (I was saying that my understanding is that it needs less hardware), I was commenting that maybe it should be part of this discussion. I don't hear that much discussion of people that have it installed, I am looking to find out more from people that have lived with it for a while to understand if the supposed advantages that it claims are acutally realized.