Help Me Pick C4 Installer

[ClassicMuscle]

3 minutes ago, Topspin14m said:

How many TVs do you have?

The home has 7 bedrooms and probably 10 TVs.  But we are only installing Control 4 on the main level with the master bedroom, living room, billiard room, etc.  So we are putting (4) TV's onto Control 4 and leaving the upstairs guest bedrooms for just Wi-Fi access via Roku, Apple TV, only.  Those bedrooms are vacant 90% of the year.  

[ClassicMuscle]

The home also has like (8) built in audio zones though, and we definitely want something like C4 to control those.  

[Control4Savant]

15 minutes ago, ClassicMuscle said:

The home has 7 bedrooms and probably 10 TVs.  But we are only installing Control 4 on the main level with the master bedroom, living room, billiard room, etc.  So we are putting (4) TV's onto Control 4 and leaving the upstairs guest bedrooms for just Wi-Fi access via Roku, Apple TV, only.  Those bedrooms are vacant 90% of the year.  

It sounds to me like company #2 assumes you may change your mind in the future and understands their responsibility and being ready to do so whenever needed. 

[ClassicMuscle]

1 minute ago, AVNeeds said:

It sounds to me like company #2 assumes you may change my mind in the future and understand their responsibility and being ready to do so whenever needed. 

Thanks.  I already have a decent "rack" from the home we just moved out of, that had Savant.  Would I still need a "rack" with JAP?  the house has cat 5 already running to many TV's and locations, but I guess we would still put the cable boxes and Apple TVs on a central rack and then just use the JAP stuff off the back of the rack instead of a video matrix?  

[Control4Savant]

1 minute ago, ClassicMuscle said:

Thanks.  I already have a decent "rack" from the home we just moved out of, that had Savant.  Would I still need a "rack" with JAP?  the house has cat 5 already running to many TV's and locations, but I guess we would still put the cable boxes and Apple TVs on a central rack and then just use the JAP stuff off the back of the rack instead of a video matrix?  

 You can centralize the equipment with JAP or you can have the transmitters in  separate areas connecting back to a central switch. 

You should've stayed with Savant 

[ClassicMuscle]

8 minutes ago, AVNeeds said:

 You can centralize the equipment with JAP or you can have the transmitters in  separate areas connecting back to a central switch. 

You should've stayed with Savant 

LOL, ok now you have to elaborate on that comment.  We have C4 on our other house up north, so I have experience using both.  When C4 went to OS3 I felt it closed the gap of the app/interface a little + I just got the feeling C4 integrated with more partners more easily than Savant does.  But please do elaborate on Savant being superior, I'm honestly curious now.  Guess I could still go Savant at this home if I want to. 

[Control4Savant]

5 minutes ago, ClassicMuscle said:

LOL, ok now you have to elaborate on that comment.  We have C4 on our other house up north, so I have experience using both.  When C4 went to OS3 I felt it closed the gap of the app/interface a little + I just got the feeling C4 integrated with more partners more easily than Savant does.  But please do elaborate on Savant being superior, I'm honestly curious now.  Guess I could still go Savant at this home if I want to. 

Well its good to know you have used both. I have been doing Control4 for 15 years and Savant for about 10. Some time around 5 years or so ago C4 stopped keeping pace with technology. IMO OS3 is a dumpster fire and besides better graphics is nowhere close the capability of the Savant UI, pro app or pro remotes. This is the main reason why I only spec Savant for new systems since its what impacts the end user the most. 

Savant has unique users who can also have their own unique favorites like cable channel and scenes (scenes are not just for lighting and can be added by user and set for particular scheduling event)

Those users can also add other users and guest users with controlled duration of access.

Those senes can also be accessed from their thermostats. 

Both systems obviously need a dealer to mange.

Both cost about the same.

Control4 is easier to set up and service with a lesser experience technician. 

Savant is far more customizable to program for AV paths, services and features.

Savant has native video IP and audio IP (WiSA surround sound and AVB) solutions.

I can go on for awhile but maybe you have a more specific question I can compare the systems with... 

 

[ClassicMuscle]

35 minutes ago, AVNeeds said:

Well its good to know you have used both. I have been doing Control4 for 15 years and Savant for about 10. Some time around 5 years or so ago C4 stopped keeping pace with technology. IMO OS3 is a dumpster fire and besides better graphics is nowhere close the capability of the Savant UI, pro app or pro remotes. This is the main reason why I only spec Savant for new systems since its what impacts the end user the most. 

Savant has unique users who can also have their own unique favorites like cable channel and scenes (scenes are not just for lighting and can be added by user and set for particular scheduling event)

Those users can also add other users and guest users with controlled duration of access.

Those senes can also be accessed from their thermostats. 

Both systems obviously need a dealer to mange.

Both cost about the same.

Control4 is easier to set up and service with a lesser experience technician. 

Savant is far more customizable to program for AV paths, services and features.

Savant has native video IP and audio IP (WiSA surround sound and AVB) solutions.

I can go on for awhile but maybe you have a more specific question I can compare the systems with... 

 

I think for us the decision came down to our other home having Control 4.  That home was a VERY extensive integration with indoor/outdoor lighting, many audio/video zones, and alot of $$$ spent on Control 4.  I tried Savant on a cheaper 2nd home, and I had a very bad experience with the Savant thermostat (which I still feel is junk) and wanted to use Nest.  That's when I found that Savant really doesn't want to play well with other products, they want you to buy their products.  So that kind of turned me off to Savant, and now having both our homes one one app (C4) will be nice.  Savant seems to be slightly more expensive than C4 when you really start getting into it.  I might do Savant on the next home, I do like their products but just wish they would work better with 3rd party sources.  I spent a YEAR before I figured out the Savant T-Stat was trash and showing incorrect temps, I think they fixed that now with some kind of sensor update, but it should never have been a problem in a T-stat they are charging you $500-700 dollars for when a $250 Nest T-Stat is superior in every way and works with C4.  

[Topspin14m]

How is Savant doing as a company?  My concern with them is that several dealers have told me they aren’t doing well...  I think their interface is really cool but am worried they are far behind Control4 and Crestron as a company/profitability.  But what I’ve been told has come from dealers that dropped Savant and are Control 4 or Crestron guys now so take it with a grain of salt...

I do see they bought GE lighting, which seems like a big deal. 

[Control4Savant]

30 minutes ago, Topspin14m said:

How is Savant doing as a company?  My concern with them is that several dealers have told me they aren’t doing well...  I think their interface is really cool but am worried they are far behind Control4 and Crestron as a company/profitability.  But what I’ve been told has come from dealers that dropped Savant and are Control 4 or Crestron guys now so take it with a grain of salt...

I do see they bought GE lighting, which seems like a big deal. 

Most dealers that used to be a Savant dealer and are now not likely either couldn't figure it out or tried the system earlier on in its existence pre smart phones and streaming etc. when it was more of a Crestron alternative and C4 was superior. It has been under the same owner since its 2005 inception which is not what we can say about Control4..  As you said they have recently purchased GE and Noon lighting to further their lighting capabilities. The have their own native IP video system with Netgear . They support AVB audio which can give me full 12 zone audio distribution with one POE switch + speakers w/ zero rack amps. They have WiSA surround sound systems with integrated smart host (controller) for basic 5.1 media rooms. They have a sister company leading in smart energy management. They utilize inexpensive processors and controllers for basic systems and Apple hardware for larger systems. Their UI is more than cool and has a least a dozen basic features you would assume a pro rated smart home would have immediately available. To me the company that is falling behind in tech, that continues to have poorly made products and now has an OS they are franticly trying to repair is the one that would make me nervous...not to mention that it had to be purchased by a tech firm and is being transitioned into software only. 

 

2 hours ago, ClassicMuscle said:

I think for us the decision came down to our other home having Control 4.  That home was a VERY extensive integration with indoor/outdoor lighting, many audio/video zones, and alot of $$$ spent on Control 4.  I tried Savant on a cheaper 2nd home, and I had a very bad experience with the Savant thermostat (which I still feel is junk) and wanted to use Nest.  That's when I found that Savant really doesn't want to play well with other products, they want you to buy their products.  So that kind of turned me off to Savant, and now having both our homes one one app (C4) will be nice.  Savant seems to be slightly more expensive than C4 when you really start getting into it.  I might do Savant on the next home, I do like their products but just wish they would work better with 3rd party sources.  I spent a YEAR before I figured out the Savant T-Stat was trash and showing incorrect temps, I think they fixed that now with some kind of sensor update, but it should never have been a problem in a T-stat they are charging you $500-700 dollars for when a $250 Nest T-Stat is superior in every way and works with C4.  

Keep in mind that Nest stopped working with C4 for quite awhile. 

The multistats are awesome. Having house scenes, white/black and portrait/landscape setup is really nice They have a newer version and also have done some updates to solve the early configuration issue. I have lots in service and its not difficult to configure around that pervious problem. They can also utilize the remote flush mount sensors I use in most cases anyways that way you can set the actual unit in a more usable location like by a doorway.  They also have a traditional Tstat similar to C4s current model which some people don't realize. There have been solutions in the past for other tstats. Lutron works 100% with Savant. 

[msgreenf]

7 minutes ago, AVNeeds said:

Keep in mind that Nest stopped working with C4 for quite awhile. 

not an accurate statement.  If you had stats setup under the old Nest account they kept working.  If you had new stats setup under Google account there was a period of time where there was no driver but old accounts never stopped working.  

[Control4Savant]

Just now, msgreenf said:

not an accurate statement.  If you had stats setup under the old Nest account they kept working.  If you had new stats setup under Google account there was a period of time where there was no driver but old accounts never stopped working.  

Totally true. I should have clarified.

[Cyknight]

8 hours ago, Topspin14m said:

but pretty much every mid to high end TV sold today can (I don't know of one that can't)

Oh?

Not a single Samsung TV

Sony: only XBR X800G and up

LG: exactly 15 of their 66 current 4K TV models support it

 

[Topspin14m]

12 minutes ago, Cyknight said:

Oh?

Not a single Samsung TV

Sony: only XBR X800G and up

LG: exactly 15 of their 66 current 4K TV models support it

 

Sorry I forgot about Samsung's ridiculous war with Dolby (which now there is a way around to convert to HDR10+!).  With LG that's every OLED and with Sony that covers all their higher end TVs. And of course all the competitive brands like Vizio, TCL...even Hisense.   Also Panasonic OLED outside the US (although now coming back in limited supply this year!). Lots of choices.  

[Cyknight]

12 hours ago, Topspin14m said:

Sorry I forgot about Samsung's ridiculous war with Dolby (which now there is a way around to convert to HDR10+!).  With LG that's every OLED and with Sony that covers all their higher end TVs. And of course all the competitive brands like Vizio, TCL...even Hisense.   Also Panasonic OLED outside the US (although now coming back in limited supply this year!). Lots of choices.  

But that is hardly 'every mid to high end TV', which was the point.

 

At any rate, if DV/HDR10+ is a must, AVPro and Atlona carry option that I know of.

As mentioned, there's the ability to use local devices, though many providers have to limited of a max device count for cable boxes for larger installs.

Alternatively, hybrid options can be done, with certain sources distributed (such as cable boxes) and other sources using local devices (Roku/AppleTV), potentially with audio fed back down.

And yes, Control4 can most assuredly control any of those setups perfectly fine.

 

Where the hybrid can get tricky is is audio distribution - you'd need an extra cable (usually CAT or a coax) to feed audio back, and if you're looking to do surround zones, you're potentially looking at issues getting things like Atmos back to receivers, unless the receiver is local as well (and speakers wired local for it).

 

Specifics are difficult to list without ability to access a site though.

[Topspin14m]

6 hours ago, Cyknight said:

But that is hardly 'every mid to high end TV', which was the point.

 

At any rate, if DV/HDR10+ is a must, AVPro and Atlona carry option that I know of.

As mentioned, there's the ability to use local devices, though many providers have to limited of a max device count for cable boxes for larger installs.

Alternatively, hybrid options can be done, with certain sources distributed (such as cable boxes) and other sources using local devices (Roku/AppleTV), potentially with audio fed back down.

And yes, Control4 can most assuredly control any of those setups perfectly fine.

 

Where the hybrid can get tricky is is audio distribution - you'd need an extra cable (usually CAT or a coax) to feed audio back, and if you're looking to do surround zones, you're potentially looking at issues getting things like Atmos back to receivers, unless the receiver is local as well (and speakers wired local for it).

 

Specifics are difficult to list without ability to access a site though.

Has anyone used Atlona?  Are they well known in this space?  Didn’t know about AVPro, but I will check them out. 

[Dave w]

26 minutes ago, Topspin14m said:

Has anyone used Atlona?  Are they well known in this space?  Didn’t know about AVPro, but I will check them out. 

Yw I have used Altona a number of projects, and then replaced them all with AVpro when they kept failing to connect....AVPro is a million times more stable. I have an Atlona AT-RON-442  for sale if you want to test one. 

[Topspin14m]

36 minutes ago, Dave w said:

Yw I have used Altona a number of projects, and then replaced them all with AVpro when they kept failing to connect....AVPro is a million times more stable. I have an Atlona AT-RON-442  for sale if you want to test one. 

Haha you aren’t great at selling that Altona!  I’ll check out AVPro.  Glad for the info!!

[Cyknight]

Our experience with Atlona has been mixed as well, I'd suggest AVPro over Atlona as well - again if DV/HDR10+ is a must at this time.

 

Had to check, but my FIRST recommendation would be to look at BluStream - they also indeed support DV on some of their lines.

[Topspin14m]

2 hours ago, Cyknight said:

Our experience with Atlona has been mixed as well, I'd suggest AVPro over Atlona as well - again if DV/HDR10+ is a must at this time.

 

Had to check, but my FIRST recommendation would be to look at BluStream - they also indeed support DV on some of their lines.

I’ll check it out!  Thanks. 

[Topspin14m]

 

14 hours ago, Cyknight said:

Our experience with Atlona has been mixed as well, I'd suggest AVPro over Atlona as well - again if DV/HDR10+ is a must at this time.

 

Had to check, but my FIRST recommendation would be to look at BluStream - they also indeed support DV on some of their lines.

This seems promising.  https://www.avproedge.com/ac-mx88-auhd-hdbt-avdm.html. It's HDMI BaseT but suggests that it can do DV @ 60hz.  Pretty great, if true.  EDIT:  So they state: "This 8x8 downming matrix supports HDR formats Including HDR, HDR10, HDR10+, Dolby Vision, HLG, BBC and NHK.  All of them are supported in up to 4K 60Hz and up to 12 Bit Deep Color. "  Of course, when you get into the specs it says it's typical HDMI BaseT (DV @ 30hz).  In any event, it seems like a good solution.  

 

[ClassicMuscle]

To update this thread, I ended up going with Company #2 and the Just Add Power option.  We might be moving from this house to a larger house within 1-2 years, and my logic was at least then I can take the JAP stuff with me and have an expandable system.  We are not huge "TV picture" obsessed people who are always chasing the latest frame rate and all of that.  As long as it's a good HD picture that looks decent, we are good.  So I think JAP will suit us well.  I appreciate everyone's input on this thread, tons of great comments!    

[eggzlot]

44 minutes ago, ClassicMuscle said:

To update this thread, I ended up going with Company #2 and the Just Add Power option.  We might be moving from this house to a larger house within 1-2 years, and my logic was at least then I can take the JAP stuff with me and have an expandable system.  We are not huge "TV picture" obsessed people who are always chasing the latest frame rate and all of that.  As long as it's a good HD picture that looks decent, we are good.  So I think JAP will suit us well.  I appreciate everyone's input on this thread, tons of great comments!    

good decision - enjoy it!