Sharing a source between multiple matrix amps

[Dueport]

I’m trying to figure out what is needed to share a source between multiple matrix amps - I’m looking at ultimately installing about 20 audio zones total so I’ll need three of the 16 channel (8 zone) C4 matrix amps (right now I have two).

I could think of three options to share a source across multiple matrix amps: 1.) physically wire the source to each of the matrix amps (ie split it and wire it as a source to each of the matrix amps); 2.) wire the source to a 16x16 C4 audio switch which is then output to the matrix audio switches; 3.) maybe this can all be done in composer rather than physical wiring though I’m not aware of a matrix amp being able to share a source with another matrix amp - presumably through the network connection?

What is the best way to do this?

[C4 User]

I don’t know the C4 matrix amp but my matrix amps allow me to output each source input (or jump) to the next matrix amp.  So no splitting the source. I would image the C4 matrix amp is the same 

[Cyknight]

15 hours ago, Dueport said:

 

I’m trying to figure out what is needed to share a source between multiple matrix amps - I’m looking at ultimately installing about 20 audio zones total so I’ll need three of the 16 channel (8 zone) C4 matrix amps (right now I have two).

I could think of three options to share a source across multiple matrix amps: 1.) physically wire the source to each of the matrix amps (ie split it and wire it as a source to each of the matrix amps); 2.) wire the source to a 16x16 C4 audio switch which is then output to the matrix audio switches; 3.) maybe this can all be done in composer rather than physical wiring though I’m not aware of a matrix amp being able to share a source with another matrix amp - presumably through the network connection?

What is the best way to do this?

1 or 2, both are possible BUT for option 1:

-The sound level may be reduced noticably (meaning you'll have to ramp up volume higher)

-Certain sources, particularly controller outputs, should not be split (pathing issues causing odd behaviour)

5 hours ago, C4 User said:

I don’t know the C4 matrix amp but my matrix amps allow me to output each source input (or jump) to the next matrix amp.  So no splitting the source. I would image the C4 matrix amp is the same 

It does not.

[Dueport]

11 hours ago, C4 User said:

I don’t know the C4 matrix amp but my matrix amps allow me to output each source input (or jump) to the next matrix amp.  So no splitting the source. I would image the C4 matrix amp is the same 

That is a nice feature for sure....

[Dueport]

5 hours ago, Cyknight said:

1 or 2, both are possible BUT for option 1:

-The sound level may be reduced noticably (meaning you'll have to ramp up volume higher)

-Certain sources, particularly controller outputs, should not be split (pathing issues causing odd behaviour)

It does not.

Huge thanks - very helpful!  So best practice sounds like it is option 2: use a C4 audio switch to share the sources across multiple c4 matrix amps? 

Confirming wiring: I'd connect 4 sources directly to the c4 16x16 Audio Switch then I'd wire, say, C4 Audio Switch outputs 1-4 to C4 8 zone Matrix Amp 1; then Audio Switch outputs 5-8 to C4 8 zone Matrix Amp 2, and then Audio Switch outputs 9-12 to C4 8 zone Matrix Amp 3, and could also wire Audio Switch outputs 13 - 16 to C4 8 zone Matrix Amp 4.  Is this the correct wiring configuration?

[Cyknight]

4 hours ago, Dueport said:

Huge thanks - very helpful!  So best practice sounds like it is option 2: use a C4 audio switch to share the sources across multiple c4 matrix amps? 

Confirming wiring: I'd connect 4 sources directly to the c4 16x16 Audio Switch then I'd wire, say, C4 Audio Switch outputs 1-4 to C4 8 zone Matrix Amp 1; then Audio Switch outputs 5-8 to C4 8 zone Matrix Amp 2, and then Audio Switch outputs 9-12 to C4 8 zone Matrix Amp 3, and could also wire Audio Switch outputs 13 - 16 to C4 8 zone Matrix Amp 4.  Is this the correct wiring configuration?

It's always preferable to not use matrix to matrix. For C4's matrix amps, the inputs can be locked to have it act as a 'dumb' amp.

In the past matrix to matrix caused huge pathing issues - I'm told that is fixed in more current setups, but I still avoid it, as even recently I've seen odd things happen....not mayor but still...

But C4 guideline would state your idea is a correct one, but keep in mind that you're limited to 4 different sources - not an issue if there are only 4, but if you have more than that, it limits you somewhat. May or not be an issue system to system.

I wouldn't SUGGEST you do it as you describe, but I'm not going to tell you it's WRONG either.

 

 

[Dueport]

9 hours ago, Cyknight said:

It's always preferable to not use matrix to matrix. For C4's matrix amps, the inputs can be locked to have it act as a 'dumb' amp.

In the past matrix to matrix caused huge pathing issues - I'm told that is fixed in more current setups, but I still avoid it, as even recently I've seen odd things happen....not mayor but still...

But C4 guideline would state your idea is a correct one, but keep in mind that you're limited to 4 different sources - not an issue if there are only 4, but if you have more than that, it limits you somewhat. May or not be an issue system to system.

I wouldn't SUGGEST you do it as you describe, but I'm not going to tell you it's WRONG either.

 

 

Thank you for taking the time on this - I appreciate your experience and insights here. If matrix to matrix can still create odd things happening, do those issues go away if you set the C4 matrix amp to amp only modes everywhere and use the matrixing only on the switch as you said - or are the odd issues still present even in that instance?

[Cyknight]

1 hour ago, Dueport said:

Thank you for taking the time on this - I appreciate your experience and insights here. If matrix to matrix can still create odd things happening, do those issues go away if you set the C4 matrix amp to amp only modes everywhere and use the matrixing only on the switch as you said - or are the odd issues still present even in that instance?

No, once set to lock inputs, there are no issues. However, the downside is that you'll have to feed 8 inputs - one for each output.

Like I said, the oddities are nowhere near what it used to be (where you'd get weird source stealing) and are in fact rare now. From a dealer perspective, like I said, I just can't recommend it (any issues are then my responsibility to deal with). That said I'm also not trying to scare you away from doing it.

[Dueport]

23 hours ago, Cyknight said:

However, the downside is that you'll have to feed 8 inputs - one for each output.

Ah what a great point!  I hadn’t thought of that - so if you lock the inputs on the 8 zone matrix amps and feed the amps from the 16x16 switch then you could only feed two 8 zone matrix amps with the switch since both matrix amps need to be fed 8 inputs. That leaves the third matrix amp out of luck. 
 

I’m thinking the best solution may be to ditch the switch idea (given the above limitation and the potential weirdness that may be created by matrixing a matrix) and split the inputs using powered splitters (to avoid the diminished sound level/quality you mentioned earlier). So the powered splitter would split each input in 3 and that would be fed to the 3 matrix amps. I think this might work best (if I can find a decent powered splitter)?

[Cyknight]

15 minutes ago, Dueport said:

So the powered splitter would split each input in 3 and that would be fed to the 3 matrix amps. I think this might work best (if I can find a decent powered splitter)?

A good 3 or 4 way distribution amp would net you around US $80 each (you can find them for 200+ but that's overkill) - even at amazon prices. For 4 sources you're looking at 300-400 - which is still cheaper than a used 16x16 audio matrix at that point. So yes, unless you HAVE one already, I'd say that's you best bet.

Not the cleanest way of wiring, but for a cost effective way of getting it done....

[Dueport]

22 hours ago, Cyknight said:

A good 3 or 4 way distribution amp would net you around US $80 each (you can find them for 200+ but that's overkill) - even at amazon prices. For 4 sources you're looking at 300-400 - which is still cheaper than a used 16x16 audio matrix at that point. So yes, unless you HAVE one already, I'd say that's you best bet.

Not the cleanest way of wiring, but for a cost effective way of getting it done....

That sounds good - I’ll try doing that. Thanks again for all your help - I really appreciate it!

[JSTRONG]

Since this is the best practices forum...

The best practice for a 20 Audio zone C4 system is of course, the 24 Zone Matrix audio switch!

 

 

 

[Dueport]

I see there’s a Triad 24 zone audio switch which would work.

What’s best practice if you exceed 24 zones? I don’t see a switch that goes higher than that…..

[Cyknight]

1 hour ago, Dueport said:

I see there’s a Triad 24 zone audio switch which would work.

What’s best practice if you exceed 24 zones? I don’t see a switch that goes higher than that…..

Yeah there was... not anymore. End of Sale last May. They went back to a 16x16 by much demand...though I'd have preferred if they kept the 24x24 as well.

Zektor (Pulse Eight) still makes a 32x32 I think, maybe VideoStorm carries one still too.

 

 

[lippavisual]

I'm hoping to see Dante available soon!

[Dueport]

21 hours ago, Cyknight said:

Yeah there was... not anymore. End of Sale last May. They went back to a 16x16 by much demand...though I'd have preferred if they kept the 24x24 as well.

Zektor (Pulse Eight) still makes a 32x32 I think, maybe VideoStorm carries one still too.

 

 

Thank you @Cyknight always helpful and appreciated. That’s too bad that it was discontinued you’d think there would be more demand for projects with a large number of zones. Appreciate the tip on the other two options - at least somebody still makes them. 

[Cyknight]

4 hours ago, lippavisual said:

I'm hoping to see Dante available soon!

Dante died 700 years ago, I doubt he's coming

[Köhler Medientechnik]

7 hours ago, Cyknight said:

Dante died 700 years ago, I doubt he's coming

Well, he came back in a different appearance 

Makes distribution and cabling of large installs pretty easy.