Audio end point 2 volume usage

[ashwinmj]

Hi. I have a Sonos Port connected to an AV receiver. What I’m ideally looking to do when selecting any source under “Listen” is:

1. When listening to Sonos, audio endpoint is the receiver and audio endpoint volume is the Sonos. The volume control should be the Sonos volume. 

2. When listening to any other audio source, both the audio endpoint and audio endpoint volume are the receiver. The volume control should be the receiver. 

Can I make use of audio endpoint 2 to achieve this? If not, is there any other way? 

 

[sonic30101]

No good way that I am aware of for this. Ideally when a receiver is used sonos should be set to fixed.

What is the reasoning to want the sonos volume to be variable?

[cshepard]

I haven’t tried it with Sonos specifically, but yes, that’s what audio volume 2 is for. We usually use it when a client adds a local source to a tv or uses a TVs internal streaming apps & there’s no audio path back to the AVR/amp.

I assume you want to keep the Sonos audio variable so you can have C4 switch to the correct source and then stay in the Sonos app to navigate music & adjust volume.

[ashwinmj]

3 hours ago, sonic30101 said:

No good way that I am aware of for this. Ideally when a receiver is used sonos should be set to fixed.

What is the reasoning to want the sonos volume to be variable?

@sonic30101 The receiver is being set to a fixed volume on the input that the Sonos is connected to. That way the Sonos volume can be controlled through both C4 and the Sonos app. 

 

1 hour ago, cshepard said:

I haven’t tried it with Sonos specifically, but yes, that’s what audio volume 2 is for. We usually use it when a client adds a local source to a tv or uses a TVs internal streaming apps & there’s no audio path back to the AVR/amp.

I assume you want to keep the Sonos audio variable so you can have C4 switch to the correct source and then stay in the Sonos app to navigate music & adjust volume.

@cshepard the problem I’m facing is that it’s always taking audio endpoint 1, whether or not I’m playing Sonos or a different source. I assume that’s because Sonos connects to the same receiver as the other sources. Is there a way to take care of this? All I need is the audio endpoint volume to be Sonos while playing the Sonos and the receiver for all other sources. The audio endpoint is the receiver for all sources including Sonos.

You’re right that I want to stay in the Sonos app. But I don't need to use the C4 app at all if I don’t want to. Whenever Sonos is played from the Sonos app, C4 detects that it’s playing and turns on listen (and controls the receiver as well). So I have the option to swap between C4 and the Sonos app at any time in the middle of an audio session. The main reason for this is the limited Sonos functionality available through the C4 app. 

[cshepard]

No guarantees, but here’s where I’d start. I don’t think C4 differentiates between different types of Sonos devices. So in Composer, don’t bind the Port to the AVR. Set your audio endpoint 1 & audio volume 1 as the Port. (If you have other audio sources in that zone, you’ll probably have to make the Port its own room). Then in programming, when room selected audio device changes, if room selected audio device is Sonos Port, turn on AVR, delay a second, set AVR input to whatever input you’re using for the port.

[Cyknight]

On 9/7/2021 at 6:25 PM, sonic30101 said:

No good way that I am aware of for this. Ideally when a receiver is used sonos should be set to fixed.

What is the reasoning to want the sonos volume to be variable?

Yeah I wouldln't do it that way either and just use C4 for volume, HOWEVER, it IS easily done, but it depends on a few things.

 

The idea is, Sonos becomes audio volume endpoint 1, receiver endpoint 2. Done.

 

HOWEVER, you CANNOT have anything fed into any Sonos device (that C4 knows of) for it to be this easy. ie no TVs into soundbars, no control4 feed into sonos etc etc, or it WILL cause chaos.

 

It's not impossible to do still, but frankly if you do have that in your setup....just use C4 for volume.

[Cyknight]

On 9/8/2021 at 6:49 PM, cshepard said:

No guarantees, but here’s where I’d start. I don’t think C4 differentiates between different types of Sonos devices. So in Composer, don’t bind the Port to the AVR. Set your audio endpoint 1 & audio volume 1 as the Port. (If you have other audio sources in that zone, you’ll probably have to make the Port its own room). Then in programming, when room selected audio device changes, if room selected audio device is Sonos Port, turn on AVR, delay a second, set AVR input to whatever input you’re using for the port.

Yeah don't do all this....

[sonic30101]

The only workaround with caveats I could remotely suggest is utilize default volumes for the avr for sonos content. You could leave the sonos as variable and with composer HE and room control driver set the sonos endpoint volume to 80% when the room enters listen mode and sonos is the selection.

 

This will allow minor volume trimming from sonos app while along c4 to handle what it is supposed to. Just be aware users could get things out of sync if sonos volume is tweaked. Also if you have an audio matrix or on your avr you compensate by turning input gain up this will help with volume at the expense of distortion.

[ashwinmj]

 My receiver is an Onkyo with the “Works with Sonos” feature. So Sonos turns on the receiver, sets it to the right input, and fixes the receiver’s volume to a preset value. The only thing it doesn’t do is to turn off the receiver when I stop playing Sonos.

On 9/9/2021 at 6:19 AM, cshepard said:

No guarantees, but here’s where I’d start. I don’t think C4 differentiates between different types of Sonos devices. So in Composer, don’t bind the Port to the AVR. Set your audio endpoint 1 & audio volume 1 as the Port. (If you have other audio sources in that zone, you’ll probably have to make the Port its own room). Then in programming, when room selected audio device changes, if room selected audio device is Sonos Port, turn on AVR, delay a second, set AVR input to whatever input you’re using for the port.

I’ve been trying this, but the problem is that when I’m watching something and turn on Sonos, C4 thinks that both Watch and Listen are on, since they’re completely different endpoints. I’ve been adding some programming to take care of this, but it’s leading to way too many conditions as new situations have been showing up. It’s feeling way too complex.

4 hours ago, Cyknight said:

Yeah I wouldln't do it that way either and just use C4 for volume, HOWEVER, it IS easily done, but it depends on a few things.

 

The idea is, Sonos becomes audio volume endpoint 1, receiver endpoint 2. Done.

 

HOWEVER, you CANNOT have anything fed into any Sonos device (that C4 knows of) for it to be this easy. ie no TVs into soundbars, no control4 feed into sonos etc etc, or it WILL cause chaos.

 

It's not impossible to do still, but frankly if you do have that in your setup....just use C4 for volume.

My only concern with using C4  for volume is that I have to use C4 for volume and since C4’s Sonos integration is very limited, I have to keep switching apps. I don’t have anything being fed into Sonos fortunately. 

3 hours ago, sonic30101 said:

The only workaround with caveats I could remotely suggest is utilize default volumes for the avr for sonos content. You could leave the sonos as variable and with composer HE and room control driver set the sonos endpoint volume to 80% when the room enters listen mode and sonos is the selection.

 

This will allow minor volume trimming from sonos app while along c4 to handle what it is supposed to. Just be aware users could get things out of sync if sonos volume is tweaked. Also if you have an audio matrix or on your avr you compensate by turning input gain up this will help with volume at the expense of distortion.

The volume part is already fixed thanks to my receiver’s “Works with Sonos” integration. Even if I try to change the volume on the receiver when on the input used by Sonos, it doesn’t do anything and displays the message “Sonos preset volume”. The only challenge has been to tell C4 to control and use the status of the Sonos volume instead of the receiver’s only when on Sonos. 

[Cyknight]

4 hours ago, sonic30101 said:

The only workaround with caveats I could remotely suggest is utilize default volumes for the avr for sonos content.

Bah - no 'workaround' needed. All you would do is is simply what I said, use the sonos as audio volume endpoint 1 instead, set receiver to 2. That is exactly what those are for.

That is of course assuming the above limitations I put in are met.

[ashwinmj]

9 hours ago, Cyknight said:

Bah - no 'workaround' needed. All you would do is is simply what I said, use the sonos as audio volume endpoint 1 instead, set receiver to 2. That is exactly what those are for.

That is of course assuming the above limitations I put in are met.

Thanks @Cyknight. To make sure I got it right, are you recommending setting:

Audio endpoint 1 - receiver

Audio volume 1 - Sonos 

Audio endpoint 2 - receiver

Audio volume 2 - receiver

I tried this, but it’s controlling the Sonos volume even when the receiver is playing audio sources that aren’t Sonos. 

[Cyknight]

On 9/11/2021 at 1:26 AM, ashwinmj said:

Thanks @Cyknight. To make sure I got it right, are you recommending setting:

Audio endpoint 1 - receiver

Audio volume 1 - Sonos 

Audio endpoint 2 - receiver

Audio volume 2 - receiver

I tried this, but it’s controlling the Sonos volume even when the receiver is playing audio sources that aren’t Sonos. 

Then you have a loop somewhere where the system thinks the sonos is able to play those sources

[ashwinmj]

I’ll check for any possible link. Would I need to look under programming for any linkage or under connections? 

Could it also be because both audio endpoint 1 and 2 are the receiver? If I make audio endpoint 1 volume the receiver and audio endpoint 2 volume as Sonos, then it always controls the receiver volume for Sonos and other sources. 

[Cyknight]

You'd be looking under connections, in any and each Sonos device

[ashwinmj]

@Cyknight thanks. We're still trying this out. We're being careful with reviewing the Sonos connections, so that we don't do something in a hurry and land up with new problems. I'll let you know what we find tomorrow. 

Do you recommend reviewing connections for all Sonos in the house, or is only the Sonos in the room with this problem enough? 

[Cyknight]

All - because if anything is connected to even one sonos, the system will see it as possible to use the local sonos as a the endpoint. ie if you have one sonos soundbar connected to a TV, it will see the sonos in the receiver room as able to play those source's audio.

[ashwinmj]

Got it, thanks. I'll review all of them. 

The setup has only 2 Sonos Ports, 3 Sonos Amps, and 1 Sonos Roam. So none of them have any inputs. I'll review all of them to look for any possible link though. 

[ashwinmj]

@Cyknight I tried disconnecting every connection from every Sonos in the house - include even the “Sonos network” connections and the audio endpoints in each room. Literally every single Sonos had zero connections. 

I then reconnected only audio volume 1 to the Sonos Port. At this point, audio endpoint 1, audio endpoint 2, and audio volume 2 were all the AVR and only audio volume 1 Sonos. At this point the only Sonos connection in the house was this one audio volume to one Sonos in the house. Even with this, when I play a non Sonos source C4 controls the Sonos volume. 

if I exchanged audio volume 1 and audio volume 2, C4 controlled the AVR volume for everything including Sonos. 

I also tried making audio endpoint 1 and audio volume 1 as Sonos, and audio endpoint 2 and audio volume 2 as the AVR. When I did this, C4 controlled the volume as it should - Sonos volume when playing Sonos and the AVR volume when playing anything else. The only problem with this was that C4 thinks The AVR isn’t involved with playing Sonos and opens up a bunch of other problems. 

Based on this I’m assuming that C4 only checks the audio endpoint (and not audio volume) to figure out whether audio endpoint 1 or 2 is applicable. That’s why when I’m setting both audio endpoints as the AVR, it’s directly applying audio endpoint 1 for any audio source, disregarding what the audio volume 1 is configured to. 

Do you have any recommendations on what I can do?

[Cyknight]

On 9/16/2021 at 10:48 PM, ashwinmj said:

Do you have any recommendations on what I can do?

Well, it shouldn't do what your describing, so it should be passed on as a possible bug - it certainly should (and is, though perhaps not in your scenario) be possibnle to have different audio and volume endpoints (this is in fact a standard setup for dumb amps and a matrix doing volume).

 

That said, I would try setting Sonos as audio endpoint 1, then program when sonos is turned on to turn on the receiver....

[ashwinmj]

38 minutes ago, Cyknight said:

Well, it shouldn't do what your describing, so it should be passed on as a possible bug - it certainly should (and is, though perhaps not in your scenario) be possibnle to have different audio and volume endpoints (this is in fact a standard setup for dumb amps and a matrix doing volume).

 

That said, I would try setting Sonos as audio endpoint 1, then program when sonos is turned on to turn on the receiver....

Thanks @Cyknight. How do I report this bug to C4?

After I figured out what was going on, I did what you recommended - setting Sonos as audio endpoint 1. The only problem is the issue on the other thread where you were helping me - when I start Sonos while a video source is on, both the Watch and Listen icons are incorrectly active. Previously it was happening only when the video source was a built in app on the TV, but with changing the audio endpoint to Sonos, it happens even when the active video sources are those connected to the receiver. This isn’t a huge problem because it’s only an incorrect visual indication in the C4 app and doesn’t affect anything else.