Watching TVs built in apps doesn't end "Watch" on turning on a "Listen" source

[ashwinmj]

The setup has an LG Smart TV and an AV receiver with a few sources connected. When a built in app on the TV is played, audio is played via the receiver using ARC.

If an audio source is selected under Listen while a video source connected to the receiver has been turned on via Watch, the Watch icon turns off and Listen turns on. However, if instead the audio source is selected under Listen while the TV's built in app has been turned on via Watch, then both the Watch and Listen icons show they're on at the same time. It seems like Control4 thinks that the TV's built in apps have nothing to do with the receiver. 

What would be the best way to fix this? Thanks for your help. 

[msgreenf]

This is how c4 works

[ashwinmj]

Thanks @msgreenf. Is there any workaround for it?

I’m trying to understand, why would C4 do it this way only for built in TV apps?

[knowitall]

It’s not C4’s fault ARC has been a failure since inception. Get a $39 Roku stick and plug it into the AVR, problem solved. 
 

why are people still trying to use ARC with C4 lol?! Welcome to the rodeo, hope you bought a program

[ashwinmj]

@knowitall thanks for your thoughts.

The only app being used on the TV is Apple TV for its Atmos support. A Fire TV Cube has been connected for everything else (for precisely the reason you said of avoiding ARC). The other options are to add:

1. Apple TV 4K - but this wouldn’t support mini apps.

2. Roku Ultra - which is a lot more expensive than a Roku stick and I’m not sure if it’s worth that simply because the Watch icon stays on if an audio source is started while watching Apple TV. The situation isn’t something that will always come up, nor is it a disaster if it does. That said, it just feels a bit unrefined when it happens. 

Regardless of ARC working or not, it seems like the C4 issue is unrelated to that. It seems like C4 doesn’t allow for the possibility to recognize that the AVR is involved via ARC while using built in apps. I feel this is something common enough that should be accounted for. 

[eggzlot]

5 hours ago, ashwinmj said:

@knowitall thanks for your thoughts.

The only app being used on the TV is Apple TV for its Atmos support. A Fire TV Cube has been connected for everything else (for precisely the reason you said of avoiding ARC). The other options are to add:

1. Apple TV 4K - but this wouldn’t support mini apps.

2. Roku Ultra - which is a lot more expensive than a Roku stick and I’m not sure if it’s worth that simply because the Watch icon stays on if an audio source is started while watching Apple TV. The situation isn’t something that will always come up, nor is it a disaster if it does. That said, it just feels a bit unrefined when it happens. 

Regardless of ARC working or not, it seems like the C4 issue is unrelated to that. It seems like C4 doesn’t allow for the possibility to recognize that the AVR is involved via ARC while using built in apps. I feel this is something common enough that should be accounted for. 

A roku ultra is $100, cheaper than the Apple TV which you only said is an issue because it doesnt support mini apps.  So you can fix your problem and probably ditch the Fire TV Cube too.  I’ve went through Fire TVs, Shields and Roku.  Roku is by far the best for C4 and even without C4 involved.  My brother in law needed a streaming device for a cheap TV he just got at his shore house and without hesitation I told him to buy a Roku.

I’ve never used ARC, but lots of TVs have a digital audio output.  why not run that output to the AVR?  I have a Smart Sony TV that has a digital audio output and I run that digital cable into my 12 year old Denon AVR for the 1-2 mini apps I use off the sony TV vs using sources in my matrix.

[ashwinmj]

3 minutes ago, eggzlot said:

A roku ultra is $100, cheaper than the Apple TV which you only said is an issue because it doesnt support mini apps.  So you can fix your problem and probably ditch the Fire TV Cube too.  I’ve went through Fire TVs, Shields and Roku.  Roku is by far the best for C4 and even without C4 involved.  My brother in law needed a streaming device for a cheap TV he just got at his shore house and without hesitation I told him to buy a Roku.

I’ve never used ARC, but lots of TVs have a digital audio output.  why not run that output to the AVR?  I have a Smart Sony TV that has a digital audio output and I run that digital cable into my 12 year old Denon AVR for the 1-2 mini apps I use off the sony TV vs using sources in my matrix.

This is outside the US and Roku isn’t sold here. I can of course order it with international delivery, but not all local apps are available on the Roku. So the Fire TV Cube would still be needed.

The digital audio cables from what I understand don’t support Atmos. They support 5.1 at the highest. Is there a way to get Atmos using it? 

[eggzlot]

6 minutes ago, ashwinmj said:

This is outside the US and Roku isn’t sold here. I can of course order it with international delivery, but not all local apps are available on the Roku. So the Fire TV Cube would still be needed.

The digital audio cables from what I understand don’t support Atmos. They support 5.1 at the highest. Is there a way to get Atmos using it? 

Correct on the 5.1 - misread that part

But I am also trying to get the logic of if watch is pressed, then listen is pressed.  If you press watch to watch something off the Fire Cube why would you press listen later unless you were done with what you were watching on the Fire Cube?

[ashwinmj]

1 hour ago, eggzlot said:

Correct on the 5.1 - misread that part

But I am also trying to get the logic of if watch is pressed, then listen is pressed.  If you press watch to watch something off the Fire Cube why would you press listen later unless you were done with what you were watching on the Fire Cube?

You’re right. When I press listen, I’m done watching the Fire TV, so I want watch to go off. That’s what I want to happen and it is. The problem isn’t while watching the Fire TV. 

The problem is when I’m watching the TVs built in app. If I press listen then, it doesn’t turn off watch. Both watch and listen are now on, and it doesn’t make sense because as you said I’m done with watch at this point. That’s what I’m trying to fix. 

[eggzlot]

2 hours ago, ashwinmj said:

You’re right. When I press listen, I’m done watching the Fire TV, so I want watch to go off. That’s what I want to happen and it is. The problem isn’t while watching the Fire TV. 

The problem is when I’m watching the TVs built in app. If I press listen then, it doesn’t turn off watch. Both watch and listen are now on, and it doesn’t make sense because as you said I’m done with watch at this point. That’s what I’m trying to fix. 

So hit room off to shut off “watch” then go to listen and pick what you want to listen to

its just extra button to press and you don’t have to buy or change anything?

[South Africa C4 user]

28 minutes ago, eggzlot said:

So hit room off to shut off “watch” then go to listen and pick what you want to listen to

its just extra button to press and you don’t have to buy or change anything?

Maybe you can even program the room off command under certain circumstances?

[ashwinmj]

1 hour ago, eggzlot said:

So hit room off to shut off “watch” then go to listen and pick what you want to listen to

its just extra button to press and you don’t have to buy or change anything?

I agree. But the audio source is Sonos. So if I hit play in the Sonos app, I would have to first go to the C4 app. All this is possible, but I’m just hoping to find a clean solution. 
 

1 hour ago, South Africa C4 user said:

Maybe you can even program the room off command under certain circumstances?

I did try that. The problem is that once I hit play on Sonos, turning off the room causes Sonos and listen to go off as well. Is there a way to stop this from happening? Maybe I program the play command again after took off so it would work, but there would be end up being a pause in the music. 

[eggzlot]

35 minutes ago, ashwinmj said:

I agree. But the audio source is Sonos. So if I hit play in the Sonos app, I would have to first go to the C4 app. All this is possible, but I’m just hoping to find a clean solution. 
 

I did try that. The problem is that once I hit play on Sonos, turning off the room causes Sonos and listen to go off as well. Is there a way to stop this from happening? Maybe I program the play command again after took off so it would work, but there would be end up being a pause in the music. 

See if you can do something like when Sonos starts power off tv.  Do it with the room control driver?

[tekki70]

room control driver would be easiest, under programming,  use when room enters listens mode turn off tv

[ashwinmj]

On 9/12/2021 at 11:36 PM, eggzlot said:

See if you can do something like when Sonos starts power off tv.  Do it with the room control driver?

17 hours ago, tekki70 said:

room control driver would be easiest, under programming,  use when room enters listens mode turn off tv

@eggzlot and @tekki70 thank you. I have the TV going off. The only problem is that the Watch icon stays on in C4, making it look like both Watch and Listen are active. Having the TV go off I’ve done, so the problem is only within the C4 app, not the behavior of the actual devices themselves. And this happens only if I turn on listen while the TVs built in apps are being used, not while other video sources connected to the receiver are being used. 

[Cyknight]

The solution is stop using ARC, use an optical out to the receiver.

If I had to guess, the system isn't even aware you're using the receiver at all, but assumes the TV is the audio and volume endpoint for the built-in apps, and the TV  si simply passing on volue control over CEC.

 

You may be able to trick the system in THINKING there's an optical connection, so it's actually controlling the receiver and keep using ARC, though unsure if it's worth the effort.

[ashwinmj]

Thanks @Cyknight. I have an optical cable running from the TV to receiver, but that supports only 5.1 I'm not using it. I'm trying to get Atmos from the TV to the receiver, which needs ARC. 

Your trick worked partially to make C4 think the receiver is involved. I connected the TVs optical out to the receiver. With this change I no longer need the programming that was previously used to turn the TV on when the TV's built in apps are used - now C4 knows the receiver is involved and controls the receiver. However, the original problem still continues. If I play something from listen while watching a built-in app on the TV, both watch and listen incorrectly stay on. This doesn't happen if I do it while watching something connected to the receiver - watch goes off and only listen is on as expected. 

[eggzlot]

2 hours ago, ashwinmj said:

Thanks @Cyknight. I have an optical cable running from the TV to receiver, but that supports only 5.1 I'm not using it. I'm trying to get Atmos from the TV to the receiver, which needs ARC. 

Your trick worked partially to make C4 think the receiver is involved. I connected the TVs optical out to the receiver. With this change I no longer need the programming that was previously used to turn the TV on when the TV's built in apps are used - now C4 knows the receiver is involved and controls the receiver. However, the original problem still continues. If I play something from listen while watching a built-in app on the TV, both watch and listen incorrectly stay on. This doesn't happen if I do it while watching something connected to the receiver - watch goes off and only listen is on as expected. 

If you are watching TV but want the Audio to be something else - C4 has an issue with that.  Though I believe 3.2.3 OS release should fix that as you can pick something to watch and something else to listen to.  Given your set up with the AVR I think it may help but don't quote me on it as I am not a dealer and only saw that ~5 minute video.

and "If I play something from listen while watching a built-in app on the TV, both watch and listen incorrectly stay on." - how is that incorrect?  if two things are playing and both show on, isn't that proper?  maybe I am lost here....

[Cyknight]

7 hours ago, eggzlot said:

If you are watching TV but want the Audio to be something else - C4 has an issue with that.  Though I believe 3.2.3 OS release should fix that as you can pick something to watch and something else to listen to.  Given your set up with the AVR I think it may help but don't quote me on it as I am not a dealer and only saw that ~5 minute video.

and "If I play something from listen while watching a built-in app on the TV, both watch and listen incorrectly stay on." - how is that incorrect?  if two things are playing and both show on, isn't that proper?  maybe I am lost here....

He's turning off the TV - and I'm actually surprised it is in fact changing the watch icon for any sources to be honest, as I would expect it to not turn it off at all.

[ashwinmj]

@eggzlotand @Cyknight let me clear up any confusion, since I guess the info is over multiple messages in this thread. I’ll put it all together here. 

I have one AVR in the room that’s shared for both audio and video (the Sonos is a Sonos Port connected to the AVR via a digital coax cable). So, at any time only one source can be active - whether it’s through watch or listen. What I would like  to happen is:

1. If a video source is playing, the AVR and TV are on. In C4 the watch icon shows active and listen icon shows inactive. 
2. If any non Sonos audio source is playing, the AVR is on and the TV is off. Changing the volume controls the AVR volume. In C4 the watch icon shows inactive and the listen icon shows active. 
3. If  Sonos is the audio source playing, the AVR is on the the TV is off. Changing the volume controls the Sonos volume (since my receiver has the Works with Sonos integration Sonos switches to the correct receiver input and the receiver’s volume is fixed when Sonos is playing). In C4 the watch icon shows inactive and the listen icon shows active. 

So at any time, only watch or listen can be active, but not both. All of this is working fine except for the following:

1. If any source is played when the room is off it works fine (except that in the 2nd scenario above, the Sonos volume is being controlled instead of the AVR volume, which @Cyknight is helping me  figure out in another thread). 
2. If scenario 2 or 3 is started while scenario 1 is going on, the TV doesn’t go off. For this, I’m adding a command to turn the TV off when Sonos starts playing, so I’m fixing it only for scenario 3. If there’s a better way to turn the TV off that takes care of going into either scenario 2 and 3 from scenario 1, that would be great. 
3. Only when scenario 1 is playing the TVs built in apps, and scenario 2 or 3 is triggered, both watch and listen icons show active, which should be be the case. This doesn’t happen if the video source that was playing is something that is connected to the receiver - the watch icon goes off in this case. This is what I’m trying to figure out a solution for in this thread. 

Thanks for all of your help!