Audio Zone Sync Issues - Triad vs. Receivers

[Charlie Mackenzie]

Hi there, I am trying to install a TV zone where sound is powered by an Sony receiver and other bar zones within an open concept space beside it are powered by the C4/Triad system. All components in the rack, and I have a echo effect as they are not synced clearly. I assume there is processing happening in the receiver that is causing this but assume this is a common issue but could not find much on it. Can anyone clarify if this is common or has anyone come up with a solution?

Second to that, I wanted to have the subwoofer from the TV/Receiver also be used when the zone next door is on without the receiver zone being on. Is this possible? Alternatively we could power the sub from the TRIAD amps and have that come on the same time as the TV/Receiver but wasn't sure if there was processing that would be missing going this way?

I welcome any advice,

Charlie

NYC

[Fraiser Wodden]

I have the exact same question for a client of mine. They have tried to use various delays but no luck. Also looking. For others views. Thanks Charlie. 

[lippavisual]

Does the Sony Avr have a bypass mode where it doesn’t process audio, like party mode?  How is the Sony receiving the audio: analog, digital or hdmi?

 

AVRs certainly add some delay for processing.  You could always add a separate audio delay unit to each soundbar zone if necessary.

If the sub is connected to the AvR, then the AVR needs to be turned on to receive the audio. No way around that.

C4 amps are not designed to power subs.  

[Rob21]

I have run into the same issue as @Charlie Mackenzie but with an anthem receiver. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

[Charlie Mackenzie]

It also happens with a Yamaha now in addition to my Sony. I borrowed a friends Yamaha and had the same outcome. So, hopefully someone here has had this issue come up and has a fix for it? Seems to be a common theme.

[Control4Savant]

As Lippa said… You can set your AVR into a direct mode to pass the processor but you will only have the front left/right. Any type of processing (surround or multi-stereo) will delay the signal versus your analog distrusted system.  Otherwise you can attempt to sync manual set delays. 

How many zones are neighboring the AVR zone? I assume they will all be on at the same time at all times? Do you need the surround sound or are you using the AVR mostly for video switching? You could preamp out off an AVR into your distribution but that will be redesigning your system to an extent. 

[Charlie Mackenzie]

13 hours ago, Control4Savant said:

As Lippa said… You can set your AVR into a direct mode to pass the processor but you will only have the front left/right. Any type of processing (surround or multi-stereo) will delay the signal versus your analog distrusted system.  Otherwise you can attempt to sync manual set delays. 

How many zones are neighboring the AVR zone? I assume they will all be on at the same time at all times? Do you need the surround sound or are you using the AVR mostly for video switching? You could preamp out off an AVR into your distribution but that will be redesigning your system to an extent. 

We have tried going "direct" on the AVR and other workarounds. No dice. The AVRs are only used in rooms where there are larger TV's (like a large family room) that is next to a kitchen. The AVRs are needed for surround sound. 

Seems to be such a basic problem and yet there does not seem to be a solution two separate dealers can come up with. How is this possible?

[ekohn00]

On 11/24/2021 at 11:00 PM, Charlie Mackenzie said:

Hi there, I am trying to install a TV zone where sound is powered by an Sony receiver and other bar zones within an open concept space beside it are powered by the C4/Triad system. 

 

How are things cabled starting at the source?

[RAV]

You'd need to run the ZONE 2 analog audio out of the receiver into the matrix as the source for adjacent rooms, thus the Receiver is the switcher for all combo use.

As to the sub, that's more complicated. Most likely going to need some form of an AB switcher. When theater on, signal from receiver, when not, signal from matrix.
 

[Control4Savant]

11 hours ago, Charlie Mackenzie said:

We have tried going "direct" on the AVR and other workarounds. No dice. The AVRs are only used in rooms where there are larger TV's (like a large family room) that is next to a kitchen. The AVRs are needed for surround sound. 

Seems to be such a basic problem and yet there does not seem to be a solution two separate dealers can come up with. How is this possible?

How is what possible? Are you trying to sync multiple AVRs? Just because you want something doesn’t mean it magically happens. 

[Charlie Mackenzie]

1 hour ago, Control4Savant said:

How is what possible? Are you trying to sync multiple AVRs? Just because you want something doesn’t mean it magically happens. 

How is it possible that what seems to be a common problem does not have a common solution. All I am trying to do is have a receiver that powers a TV zone have the same audio timing as the rest of the control4 triad platform as this TV zone is in an open space with a bunch of other zones. So, in order to not here an echo there needs to be some correction. I think best answer is to put extra speakers in the ceiling that only work with the Triad platform and then just have the receiver as dedicated TV. therefore no delay and no part of the open concept living space without sound. Seems excessive, but it will solve it. Now, we just need to solve the subwoofer issue which is on the receiver but wanted for the audio zones as well. might just look for a sub with two line ins and run one from the matrix to the sub and the other from the AVR to the sub. 

again, my comment was around this is not a unique problem and based on responses to this, it clearly is an ongoing thing. just no clean answer to date. Lots of Band-Aids and trial and error. 

Everyone has been super helpful, really appreciate the feedback. I have tried a few of these suggestions (thank you to the community) but they don't seem to work for my application.

[Control4Savant]

13 minutes ago, Charlie Mackenzie said:

How is it possible that what seems to be a common problem does not have a common solution. All I am trying to do is have a receiver that powers a TV zone have the same audio timing as the rest of the control4 triad platform as this TV zone is in an open space with a bunch of other zones. So, in order to not here an echo there needs to be some correction. I think best answer is to put extra speakers in the ceiling that only work with the Triad platform and then just have the receiver as dedicated TV. therefore no delay and no part of the open concept living space without sound. Seems excessive, but it will solve it. Now, we just need to solve the subwoofer issue which is on the receiver but wanted for the audio zones as well. might just look for a sub with two line ins and run one from the matrix to the sub and the other from the AVR to the sub. 

again, my comment was around this is not a unique problem and based on responses to this, it clearly is an ongoing thing. just no clean answer to date. Lots of Band-Aids and trial and error. 

Everyone has been super helpful, really appreciate the feedback. I have tried a few of these suggestions (thank you to the community) but they don't seem to work for my application.

We have clean answers you have been given. They involve changing some things, not just swapping to another AVR. You want to have a digital processor on one piece of unrelated hardware work magically with an analog distribution system and that’s not going to happen without redesigning the system as it should have been done or changing the connections of your current hardware. 

[Charlie Mackenzie]

1 hour ago, Control4Savant said:

We have clean answers you have been given. They involve changing some things, not just swapping to another AVR. You want to have a digital processor on one piece of unrelated hardware work magically with an analog distribution system and that’s not going to happen without redesigning the system as it should have been done or changing the connections of your current hardware. 

Apologies if it was not clear above - I have tried many of these things (via the dealer) who also follows this forum now. 

Again, thanks to the community at large. 

[ekohn00]

8 hours ago, Charlie Mackenzie said:

Apologies if it was not clear above - I have tried many of these things (via the dealer) who also follows this forum now. 

Again, thanks to the community at large. 

I don't think there's a clear explanation of the streaming path, but if it wasn't mentioned, and I assume the triad is between the receiver and speakers...id check that it's the same zone as theater speakers (main), not zone 2. if you switch zones on a lot of receivers the processing might add a delay...sometimes it might not even work, depending on the source.

 

[Charlie Mackenzie]

14 minutes ago, ekohn00 said:

I don't think there's a clear explanation of the streaming path, but if it wasn't mentioned, and I assume the triad is between the receiver and speakers...id check that it's the same zone as theater speakers (main), not zone 2. if you switch zones on a lot of receivers the processing might add a delay...sometimes it might not even work, depending on the source.

 

Thanks for the thoughts. The Triad is not "between" them. The sound leaves C4 EA5 via the digital outs (not HDMI) and goes into the audio matrix and then to the TRIAD Amps. While at the same time it also goes from that same matrix (TRIAD AMS 24) into the receiver and is set up to play "direct" so should not be doing processing. Yet, still there is a delay. The source is all the same path until the amps. Then one zone comes from the Matrix to the receiver as an audio in and then the other goes to the triad amps, all from the matrix. We have tried changing the inputs on the receiver as well. 

I think at this point the fix we will take here in New York is the simple one. Different zones for the same zone so that some of the speakers are driven from the triad amps in the AVR zone as well.

[lippavisual]

This is a common problem, but easily solved through proper planning and installation.

Not sure what you mean when you say you’ve tried these solutions.  The solutions I  and others have provided works for what you’re trying to accomplish.

You’ve also not answered any questions that have been asked of you. 

[ekohn00]

46 minutes ago, Charlie Mackenzie said:

Thanks for the thoughts. The Triad is not "between" them. The sound leaves C4 EA5 via the digital outs (not HDMI) and goes into the audio matrix and then to the TRIAD Amps. While at the same time it also goes from that same matrix (TRIAD AMS 24) into the receiver and is set up to play "direct" so should not be doing processing. Yet, still there is a delay. The source is all the same path until the amps. Then one zone comes from the Matrix to the receiver as an audio in and then the other goes to the triad amps, all from the matrix. We have tried changing the inputs on the receiver as well. 

I think at this point the fix we will take here in New York is the simple one. Different zones for the same zone so that some of the speakers are driven from the triad amps in the AVR zone as well.

I'm going to take an educated guess here that the delay is on the matrix switch out, so any change on the receiver or amp won't really matter.

Are you going out from the matrix switch to the receiver and amp via a digital connection, and are both the same type of connection? The easiest way to see if the delay is the switch is to move the Triad Amp as a zone off the receiver and see if that solves the problem.  I'd also be curious what would happen if you change the EA5 to analog.

 

 

[Control4Savant]

2 hours ago, ekohn00 said:

I'm going to take an educated guess here that the delay is on the matrix switch out, so any change on the receiver or amp won't really matter.

Are you going out from the matrix switch to the receiver and amp via a digital connection, and are both the same type of connection? The easiest way to see if the delay is the switch is to move the Triad Amp as a zone off the receiver and see if that solves the problem.  I'd also be curious what would happen if you change the EA5 to analog.

 

 

The matrix is the source of audio for both of the areas and at the start of the chain. The delay is in the AVR. It’s a pretty “normal” problem when not included in part of the original design.  Use IP/POE speakers for distribution and generic surround sound where the processing is done individually… 2ms max delay even bests analog zone systems. 

[Charlie Mackenzie]

20 hours ago, Control4Savant said:

The matrix is the source of audio for both of the areas and at the start of the chain. The delay is in the AVR. It’s a pretty “normal” problem when not included in part of the original design.  Use IP/POE speakers for distribution and generic surround sound where the processing is done individually… 2ms max delay even bests analog zone systems. 

Thank you everyone. The dealer updated the firmware on the receiver and the delay disappeared. Seemed like an unlikely fix, but it is gone none the less. There were some sound settings that were in the new firmware that seemed to allow them to use a "direct" mode that seems to work this time when it made the delay less last time (thanks to whoever made that suggestion previously), but now it is gone (or at least not noticeable.