ejn1 Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 Just curious on dealers view on the pitch for this system... Absolute highest customer / home stability and "minimum dealer intervention" is the design criteria. (eg true "install it and done" system with absolute minimum dealer call outs / touch points other than maybe an annual update) At a minimum the customer needs AV control (eg Room, remote, AVR, streaming device{s}). What elements of lock down are required? What elements of network control are required by the dealer? (eg equipment, montoring, all native C4 devices / drivers, minimum IoT, only devices that can lock IP addresses) What parts of a C4 install are inherently more dealer hands on required (whether it was meant to be or not) and maybe should be avoided (eg garage, lights, alarms, pools, HVAC, etc). Thoughts? As a starting point, i have found my C4 lighting to be very reliable and stable with the exception of C4 outlet dimmers... Amount of dealer intervention after setup has been relatively minor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-defunct- Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 Personally, if I ever installed a system as a dealer this would by my minimum: Full network access Remote monitoring with OvrC Promote native touch screens over the mobile app Avoid third party solutions as much as possible (even though I do have some in my own system, but would prefer them being replaced with a good 1st party alternative) When the network is solid, ISP is solid, and rf interference is low, then the system should be very reliable. GregCAMS 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAV Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 Majority of system issues arrise from somebody changed something, power, or bad equipment. Controlling the 'somebody' is the key for low dealer touches. 'Somebody' can be third party hardware/firmware changes, mobile os, owner touching, other contractors, network, ISP, cable guy, kids, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Africa C4 user Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 42 minutes ago, RAV said: Majority of system issues arrise from somebody changed something, power, or bad equipment. Controlling the 'somebody' is the key for low dealer touches. 'Somebody' can be third party hardware/firmware changes, mobile os, owner touching, other contractors, network, ISP, cable guy, kids, etc. This pretty much covers it… to be honest, if I made the following changes to my system, I suspect that the only dealer intervention that I would need would be him occasionally telling me to reboot: 1. Turn off auto update on all drivers; and, 2. Taking away Composer access from me. I’m not advocating this but I do think this would stabilise my system nicely (and any other well set up system after the first few weeks of teething issues). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaphod Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 One thing that some end users may not realize is that changing their ISP or even upgrading/changing their internet or TV service will likely have major ramifications for a HA system like Control4. Or even changing the cable/IPTV provider without changing your internet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejn1 Posted January 8, 2022 Author Share Posted January 8, 2022 Fully agree there are a lot of uncertainties / variables on the home owner (and dealer) side that can affect system stability... But in the end, how are these mitigated and for a customer segment that would only use C4 with some stability "resilience", what would the dealer offer? I guess the contrast would be, sorry customer, too many variables to create a low touch system and you are going to have a tight marriage with me (the dealer) in perpetuity? ps, agree on ISP change but this is one that should be less frequent and easily explained in the sale pitch... eg "when you change ISP, I will need to come in and test / retest A,B,C, etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-defunct- Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 Regular updates with constant coordination to ensure functionality after each. Updates to devices occur very frequently, it would also be wise to work with a dealer to ensure devices are cycled out when they are no longer supported, especially for security reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-defunct- Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 Coming from the manufacturer side and seeing security implemented, anybody that 'sets up and forgets' a modern smart system is potentially leaving a security hole in their network. Every device should be on their latest version and entirely removed if it hasn't had a software update, firmware update, or patch within the last three to six months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejn1 Posted January 8, 2022 Author Share Posted January 8, 2022 4 minutes ago, Dunamivora said: Coming from the manufacturer side and seeing security implemented, anybody that 'sets up and forgets' a modern smart system is potentially leaving a security hole in their network. Every device should be on their latest version and entirely removed if it hasn't had a software update, firmware update, or patch within the last three to six months. good point, but C4 updates and C4 driver updates can be done by the dealer at some interval behind the scenes and invisible to the customer I would think... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-defunct- Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 I don't know of any dealer that updates without being paid either in a service contract or in a one-time service charge. Automatic updates are invisible, but very limited in scope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Control4Savant Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 7 minutes ago, Dunamivora said: I don't know of any dealer that updates without being paid either in a service contract or in a one-time service charge. Automatic updates are invisible, but very limited in scope. I do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejn1 Posted January 8, 2022 Author Share Posted January 8, 2022 28 minutes ago, Dunamivora said: I don't know of any dealer that updates without being paid either in a service contract or in a one-time service charge. Automatic updates are invisible, but very limited in scope. I wasn't assuming all parties aren't being paid for services rendered... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaphod Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 55 minutes ago, Dunamivora said: Coming from the manufacturer side and seeing security implemented, anybody that 'sets up and forgets' a modern smart system is potentially leaving a security hole in their network. Every device should be on their latest version and entirely removed if it hasn't had a software update, firmware update, or patch within the last three to six months. The problem with this is that you are potentially making people spend a lot of money on hardware upgrades on a regular basis. And the hardware isn't always available. In the Control4 context that would mean that when OS3 was introduced that the clients would have to pretty much immediately go to OS3 which may entail replacing a bunch of hardware like controllers and touch screens? I am just working to rid myself of a different issue right now as older versions of the Ubiquiti Unifi Controller software are subject to the log4j vulnerability. But some of my access points were EOLed as of March 2021 and were not supposed to work with Controller versions after that date. Luckily I am able to upgrade to the latest system with the log4j patch without needing to replace those access points as they are still supported in the latest Controller version. In theory you can say "Go ahead and replace the hardware". But right now you can't always replace them if you wanted to given the supply constraints - the Wifi6 access points that I want have been pretty much impossible to find. I believe this is also the case with a lot of C4 hardware right now - you just can't get it at the current time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-defunct- Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 It is the case now, but was not the case a few years ago and when OS3 released, so the upgrade conversation on devices not supported for OS3 should have been had a very long time ago. Possibly after the older touch screens stopped getting software updates. EOL'ing devices during a shortage obviously isn't the greatest idea, so it wouldn't happen now. Continuing support would be the ideal there. I do expect hardware to be replaced every 5 years with IoT due to how fast the hardware security specs and feature specs are changing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-defunct- Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 50 minutes ago, Control4Savant said: I do. Nice. I appreciate that. Honestly wish more did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-defunct- Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 31 minutes ago, ejn1 said: I wasn't assuming all parties aren't being paid for services rendered... Fair. I guess I am assuming on your definition of 'low-touch'. What is the minimal you expect in interactions from a dealer in your ideal system? (Assuming a dealer is required for updates, additions, and troubleshooting). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Control4Savant Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 1 minute ago, Dunamivora said: Nice. I appreciate that. Honestly wish more did. Thanks. If someone is willing to spend $20k+ with me on managed technology I can surely give them a free hour or two of my time when they need something simple. -defunct-, TundraSonic and BY96 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-defunct- Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 Just now, Control4Savant said: Thanks. If someone is willing to spend $20k+ with me on managed technology I can surely give them a free hour or two of my time when they need something simple. That's the way I think too. Good business practices like that can lead to further purchases as well. TundraSonic and Control4Savant 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Control4Savant Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 6 minutes ago, Dunamivora said: That's the way I think too. Good business practices like that can lead to further purchases as well. These are also not Control4 jobs either but the practice is the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-defunct- Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 16 minutes ago, Control4Savant said: These are also not Control4 jobs either but the practice is the same. That's fine. I still appreciate the fact you bring the practice to the industry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejn1 Posted January 9, 2022 Author Share Posted January 9, 2022 1 hour ago, Dunamivora said: Fair. I guess I am assuming on your definition of 'low-touch'. What is the minimal you expect in interactions from a dealer in your ideal system? (Assuming a dealer is required for updates, additions, and troubleshooting). I think everyone has their own definition, but several friends that I know who are not tech savvy and have a C4 system, my sense was that anything more than 1-2 times/yr that had to call a dealer would frustrate them to no end. Some may be mitigated with a more transparent sales call on the front end.... Eg This basic system of x is very stable and only needs my intervention in these scenarios.. If later you want to expand with these things, then more frequent dealer involvement is needed unless I manage turn key these elements (eg network)... -defunct- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-defunct- Posted January 9, 2022 Share Posted January 9, 2022 Just now, ejn1 said: I think everyone has their own definition, but several friends that I know who are not tech savvy and have a C4 system, my sense was that anything more than 1-2 times/yr that had to call a dealer would frustrate them to no end. Ya, that is reasonable. Sometimes hard with such a wide ecosystem of devices from different manufacturers. I've seen automatic updates from other vendors break control and require on-site reconfiguration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaphod Posted January 9, 2022 Share Posted January 9, 2022 Couch, cough: Chamberlain, Apple TV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C4 User Posted January 9, 2022 Share Posted January 9, 2022 12 hours ago, zaphod said: Couch, cough: Chamberlain, Apple TV. I’ve had an ATV in my C4 systems for over 10 years. I have only used the C4 driver. In the beginning, C4 controlled the ATV via IR, but for at least the past 5 years its been IP controlled. It’s been very reliable - only requiring an occasional reboot of the ATV - which is almost always because of an ATV update. I do have my entire system including TV’s, network gear, and my entire rack, on UPS’s to ensure any rebooting is managed by me and not my power utility company. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggzlot Posted January 9, 2022 Share Posted January 9, 2022 12 hours ago, zaphod said: Couch, cough: Chamberlain, Apple TV. Chamberlain/MyQ was a 3rd party driver using an unapproved API. When I purchased it my dealer told me it could be here today and gone tomorrow. And C4 is not allowing these types of drivers to be developed anymore (ones without a proper approval to use the API) And it was said up thread - use as much native hardware/c4 developed drivers. It’s no guarantee but a bit more peace of mind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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