System Design for highest customer stability

[ejn1]

I was kind of hoping that this thread would yield a few base system designs that C4 new customers could build with a credible sales pitch that the dealer intimacy is very low...  There are a lot of customers out there that dont mind paying someone else a reasonable service fee but absolutely hate having someone else be in "control" of their home functioning or enjoyment and hate having to chase down folks multiple times in a year to achieve this.   And as systems get more extensive, cross more types of devices, requires more third party elements, then the dealer involvement goes up but in those cases it would be far more likely for the customer to understand this and accept it. 

[-defunct-]

Probably the lowest maintenance setup I could think of if the local network is rock-solid:

-C4 controllers

-C4 zigbee lighting

-C4 touchscreens

-Triad amps and matrix switches

-C4 chime

-IP Cameras with certified or C4-developed driver

 

[Control4Savant]

2 hours ago, ejn1 said:

I was kind of hoping that this thread would yield a few base system designs that C4 new customers could build with a credible sales pitch that the dealer intimacy is very low...  There are a lot of customers out there that dont mind paying someone else a reasonable service fee but absolutely hate having someone else be in "control" of their home functioning or enjoyment and hate having to chase down folks multiple times in a year to achieve this.   And as systems get more extensive, cross more types of devices, requires more third party elements, then the dealer involvement goes up but in those cases it would be far more likely for the customer to understand this and accept it. 

I can do this sometime today 

[TundraSonic]

#1 - Realistic Expectations. A simple light switch is the most reliable way to control a light. A simple dumb dimmer is less reliable. A WiFi controlled dimmer less reliable still. A WiFi and HA controlled dimmer even less reliable. A dimmer controlled via cloud is ...

Technology and automation is great but the more complicated something is the more unreliable it will be. This should never be an excuse for poor quality products, poor installation or poor configuration but is something that people need to keep in mind.

On top of this then is a semi-reliable network upon which a system like C4 rides. Ethernet/TCP/IP is at it's foundation a best effort protocol. 

 

 

[ejn1]

3 hours ago, TundraSonic said:

#1 - Realistic Expectations. A simple light switch is the most reliable way to control a light. A simple dumb dimmer is less reliable. A WiFi controlled dimmer less reliable still. A WiFi and HA controlled dimmer even less reliable. A dimmer controlled via cloud is ...

Technology and automation is great but the more complicated something is the more unreliable it will be. This should never be an excuse for poor quality products, poor installation or poor configuration but is something that people need to keep in mind.

On top of this then is a semi-reliable network upon which a system like C4 rides. Ethernet/TCP/IP is at it's foundation a best effort protocol. 

 

 

Agree.   Sounds like a thread asking what can go wrong in a HA system vs how can a system be resilient to some of these issues would have been an easier thread

[RAV]

The issues are in what is going to change over the next 5 years?

Streaming stuff - always in flux.
Phones and OS - a mess and uncontrollable.
Cloud services - daily issues.
Third Party - on a whim.
Network Specs/Security - need touches.
The Internet - if it touches the internet, it's a liability.
Lamp tech - lots of changes coming.

Remove those from any tech home, and you're not left with much.

Can you design a low touch system, that's resilient, sure.
Will it be whizz bang and control everything, nope.

Solid network with remote support.
Don't skimp on controller over build in quality and processing, have redundancies, use touchscreens and native equipment.
Address power.
Limit the 'yeah, I can make it do that'
Make sure as much as possible can exist on it's own, don't hide stuff, no whacky solutions, if aliens steal the processor the home should still function for weeks.

[OceanDad]

On 1/9/2022 at 7:18 AM, Dunamivora said:

-C4 controllers

-C4 zigbee lighting

-C4 touchscreens

-Triad amps and matrix switches

-C4 chime

-IP Cameras with certified or C4-developed driver

I agree, but only up to a point.  C4 touchscreens, Chime intercom, and C4's camera integration have been some of the most disappointing pieces from a customer experience POV over the last few years, for a variety of reasons.  Add Neeo to that list if you like.  From a hardware perspective, C4 native amps and matrix gear haven't done too well in the reliability stakes either.

[zaphod]

19 minutes ago, OceanDad said:

I agree, but only up to a point.  C4 touchscreens, Chime intercom, and C4's camera integration have been some of the most disappointing pieces from a customer experience POV over the last few years, for a variety of reasons.  Add Neeo to that list if you like.  From a hardware perspective, C4 native amps and matrix gear haven't done too well in the reliability stakes either.

Then there is the SR-260 screen issue.  It seems like some of the older gear was more reliable - like the older 4 zone and 8 zone matrix amps and SR-250s.  I have a few of those in my system and they keep ticking.

[-defunct-]

1 hour ago, OceanDad said:

I agree, but only up to a point.  C4 touchscreens, Chime intercom, and C4's camera integration have been some of the most disappointing pieces from a customer experience POV over the last few years, for a variety of reasons.  Add Neeo to that list if you like.  From a hardware perspective, C4 native amps and matrix gear haven't done too well in the reliability stakes either.

Note: I did not list the mobile apps, Neeo, or SR 260.

I have not heard of issues with the Chime or DS2 with a pure local system after the changes made the intercom preview as unicast instead of multicast as long as the network is good.

C4's camera experience hasn't had issues if you disregard the mobile app.

I haven't heard of issues with the Triad equipment, the Control4 amp's power supply obviously wasn't the best.

[zaphod]

1 hour ago, Dunamivora said:

... the Control4 amp's power supply obviously wasn't the best.

By this are you referring to the C4AMP108?  Those seemed to have issues, but the C4-16AMP3-B seems rock solid, despite being older.

[-defunct-]

38 minutes ago, zaphod said:

By this are you referring to the C4AMP108?  Those seemed to have issues, but the C4-16AMP3-B seems rock solid, despite being older.

Correct. That matrix amplifier and the 4 zone matrix amp are awesome.

[ekohn00]

1 hour ago, zaphod said:

By this are you referring to the C4AMP108?  Those seemed to have issues, but the C4-16AMP3-B seems rock solid, despite being older.

don't curse it.....      my C4-16AMP still buzzing for many a year.

 

[Andrew luecke]

Huge list of recommendations (for eg, use an CA-10, etc), but at least for networking, most of the risk can easily be managed with the following:

1. DHCP guarding the network switch. I've come across way too many customers who add a rogue DHCP server causing issues. DHCP guards (various systems have various names) blocks all other devices from providing DHCP leases (they might even do it in the wrong subnet, which causes huge nightmares)

2. Static IP's for devices instead of DHCP , and unless its Control4 Manufactured, don't use SSDP (SSDP in my experience works awesome on most devices, but it doesn't hurt to remove 1 link of the chain to allow less to fail). 

3.  Use Shielded cable/fibre  where possible/logical to eliminate the risk of interference. I've come across cases where a HDBaseT device had issues for instance, and we eventually realised it was because of the piezo in the fireplace. We were fortunate that some cable happened to be a different way in the wall. 

4. Don't underestimate the benefits of full network visibility. At a commercial site on a friday evening I got an email saying half the cardreaders at a commercial site went offline. I called them, and there were installers there, who shouted at me that I was "trying to steal their job", and that they didn't touch anything. 15mins later, the building manager checked the rack, and it turned out they had unplugged a cable. What followed was a sincere apology and how they wanted to work together with us later. 

5. Use POE power for everything you can. Power supplies are always the first thing to blow. Less high-voltage is good. It also lets you reboot devices from the rack.  

6. Never use the Wifi on your router.. 

7. Use a good router, and something with central management system (Aruba, Unifi, OvrC, etc).

8. In residential, preferably you want more than enough wifi so if one drops offline, its not a huge disaster imho (don't worry too much about the AP's interfering with each other).

9. in some scenarios, it might be good to consider static ARP

10. DO NOT use Open Wifi Networks in ANY circumstances (even if they're hidden). 

11. Ping Watchdogs and rebooting PSU's can further manage risk. 

12. You're better off running fibre with CAT6 (for power) than CAT7/CAT8 for future expansion imho. The cable is cheaper, there's more bandwidth, it's immune against interference and it's easy to pull through the walls. You can leave it behind the wall until you need it. Or at least have conduit to make it easy to add cables in the future     

[ejn1]

@Andrew luecke was just reflecting that your list really is all about networking for the most part…. And the items you list are really beyond most people I know capability (and probably many dealers). So really what you are saying is to have a stable and resilient HA system,  you really need to relinquish control and management of the home networking function?

[RAV]

Other than standalone Lutron RA/Homeworks (non app based), not sure I can think of another major component of HA that isn't reliant on network.

[Control4Savant]

26 minutes ago, ejn1 said:

@Andrew luecke was just reflecting that your list really is all about networking for the most part…. And the items you list are really beyond most people I knows capability (and probably many dealers). So really what you are saying is to have a stable and resilient HA system,  you really need to relinquish control and management of the home networking function?

lol. HA can run on very dumb networks without problem. 

[ejn1]

29 minutes ago, Control4Savant said:

lol. HA can run on very dumb networks without problem. 

above post seems to assert otherwise unless I'm reading it wrong....

[ejn1]

45 minutes ago, RAV said:

Other than standalone Lutron RA/Homeworks (non app based), not sure I can think of another major component of HA that isn't reliant on network.

My point was is it "reliant" on a more advanced network than most home owners have the competency to manage themselves... 

[Control4Savant]

17 minutes ago, ejn1 said:

above post seems to assert otherwise unless I'm reading it wrong....

My near 20 years of experience says having either a managed network for security or having a “dumb” network for convenience works just as well. Majority of dealers have no real networking knowledge and mostly set up expensive plug and play systems. PCNA is …well .. 

[Control4Savant]

Lighting should be done via Lutron Caseta or Select. That allows the end user to not only manage their lighting but expand it. 

Music should be done via Sonos and distributed according to design. Lutron keypads can be programmed to utilize Sonos as well and you will have the least amount of support issues with the variety of services.  Sonos also allows for simple and inexpensive wireless expansion and wireless surround sound. It also will allow centralized or local audio for the video sources around the home. 

Video sources can be local streamers or hub/secondary wirelessSTBs with provided control.

Camera systems should be isolated from the network if you care about security/privacy but otherwise Hik is completely acceptable and simple enough to manage as an end user and a separate system. 

Networking can be separated or simple. If you provide/managed you’re own router, switch and APs no change in ISP or likewise will cause unknown issues. 

Power management can be done via Wattbox and OVRC with a detailed client set app. Make sure to have at least a basic good UPS for brown outs and generator delays. 

Label EVERYTHING. 

…. you can design a whole home with dependable 3rd party options that are user managed and also very compatible as a “central system” with Control4,Savant, Crestron etc …both systems tend to be stable but the client is not reliant on the dealer.  You can then also utilize IFTTT or HA, better 3rd party VC etc.

[Andrew luecke]

On 1/14/2022 at 1:16 PM, Control4Savant said:

lol. HA can run on very dumb networks without problem. 

Yes.. Until they have an issue. Then when the customer contacts you for remote assistance with an issue like "my wifi isn't working correctly", you have no means of properly diagnosing it (is the AP offline, is a switch offline, is the internet dropping out, etc). You also have no easy way to see if the system is fully working and it decreases uptime. 

In some cases, managed equipment also allows you to be proactive and identify problems in advance and proactively call the customer. In our case, there was a case where we had a customer with a faulty AP.. They checked and confirmed it. We precommissioned another and they swapped it on the spot before it had an effect on their usage. 

The question was in regards to stability, and features of  central/cloud managed network equipment GREATLY reduces downtime in the event of an issue because you can defend the network (which was the purpose of the question)

Furthermore, you can provide the credentials to the customer on most management systems anyway, whilst offering the benefit of central management, as systems like OvrC and Unifi Controller do. 

 

 

On 1/14/2022 at 2:45 PM, Control4Savant said:

Lighting should be done via Lutron Caseta or Select. That allows the end user to not only manage their lighting but expand it. 

Music should be done via Sonos and distributed according to design. Lutron keypads can be programmed to utilize Sonos as well and you will have the least amount of support issues with the variety of services.  Sonos also allows for simple and inexpensive wireless expansion and wireless surround sound. It also will allow centralized or local audio for the video sources around the home. 

Video sources can be local streamers or hub/secondary wirelessSTBs with provided control.

Camera systems should be isolated from the network if you care about security/privacy but otherwise Hik is completely acceptable and simple enough to manage as an end user and a separate system. 

Networking can be separated or simple. If you provide/managed you’re own router, switch and APs no change in ISP or likewise will cause unknown issues. 

Power management can be done via Wattbox and OVRC with a detailed client set app. Make sure to have at least a basic good UPS for brown outs and generator delays. 

Label EVERYTHING. 

…. you can design a whole home with dependable 3rd party options that are user managed and also very compatible as a “central system” with Control4,Savant, Crestron etc …both systems tend to be stable but the client is not reliant on the dealer.  You can then also utilize IFTTT or HA, better 3rd party VC etc.

A lot of good info. However, if you're using SONOS, you DEFINITELY should be using managed switches (as Sonos relies on STP with older path costs to work correctly). Also, there are a lot of good lighting systems out there imho.. 

:ighting would depend on requirements and the country generally.

 

On 1/14/2022 at 12:39 PM, ejn1 said:

@Andrew luecke was just reflecting that your list really is all about networking for the most part…. And the items you list are really beyond most people I know capability (and probably many dealers). So really what you are saying is to have a stable and resilient HA system,  you really need to relinquish control and management of the home networking function?

I wouldn't say you have to relinquish control. We always gave customers credentials to administer the system themselves whenever we could (unless it wasn't an option). 

Truth is, I made the list, and was going to get to other things too but it took me a while to write the first list, so ran out of time.

 

[RAV]

If a client doesn't wish to be relying on a dealer, than the client needs to own the network, and be able to maintain it.

Is there middle ground? Can a dealer installed network be maintained by a home owner?

Anything above Eero, and I'd say no. And thus the installed system is boxed into Eero's abilities.