"Audio Scenes" ??? Restaurant Application - 16 channel amp

[ponchy5]

I am in the process of specifying a job for a restaurant and I have read some things (specifically about the 16 channel amp) that lead me to belive that I may have made an error in judgement. My equipment list is as follows:

1-HTC

2-MTS's

1-16 Channel Amp

25- Dimmers (possibly)

I pitched the idea as follows:

The owner comes in and pushes "day" on the MTS. The system turns on and activates all audio zones to a preset volume limit. If the lighting is incorperated the lighting does the same. As the night progresses and the restaurant naturally gets louder the volume will need to be increased and the lighting will need to become more dim. In my mind I had planned to create "audio scenes" similar to lighting scenes. At a certain time the scene would switch from "day" to "night" either automatically or at the touch of a button. I am finding that this idea is not as easy as I had imagined. What I am trying to avoid is there ever being a need to adjust the volume manually at all. I have read that the 16 channel amp has a tendency to be quite "sensitive" and I obviously fear the worst if anybody decides to try and manually raise the volume zone by zone. Does anybody have any suggestions as to how to make this application "bullet proof." The margin for error in a restaurant application is 0 and I cannot afford to have this thing blow up in my face. Is there any way to limit the output of each zone that that it won't go past a certain level? What if somebody was to accidentally brush past the jog dial on the MTS and shoot the volume up to full blast, can I set the level to prevent that? Should I bail on this proposal or can it be done???? Please help!

[Samer Shami]

In terms of volume limits, so far I have only been able to enforce a soft limit. That means that is is still possible for the amp to ramp to 100% for a brief instant before it is brought back down to its soft limit.

Rather than relying upon C4 to enforce a limit, you can place all devices into a pre-amp with manual volume controls. Then set the C4 amp between 90% and 95% volume, and adjust the volumes of all inputs so that they are now at the maximum levels you ever want to reach. Now this way, whenever you adjust the volume through the amp you can be certain that it will never go over the upper volume limit you placed on the system.

Better still, use a RS-232 controlled matrix switcher with in-built pre-amp volume adjustments. This will give you a large degree of flexibility for the project. You could then possibly use 100V amplifiers for sending the audio over multiple speakers in the restaurant.

I feel confident that I could make the C4 equipment do what you spec'ed. However this is not taking into consideration the system "users". If you want bullet-proof don't use the MTC. Use a 6 button keypad with engraving. This limits their possible interactions with the system - and means you can have greater control over the equipment. My idea of bullet-proof is limiting the system to 3 buttons -- "day" scene, "night" scene and off! The more flexibility you give the client, the more work it takes on your part to control the equipment and protect the users from themselves.

[ponchy5]

do u mean something like a Russound CAV6.6 for the switch? also, I have since read about people usign the Control4 matrix switch with separate amps, in your opinion whats the best alternative? The client likes the idea of the MTC and if I can limit the volume I am not as concerned with the errors that may occur. My biggest fear is the speakers ramping to full volume and the restaurant clearing out. (although i guess jog dial could be the variable the screws it all up)

Finally, in refrence to the audio scenes, can you create a button to turn on all zones at a certain level? If so, can u give me some guidance about where to start? My ideal scenario is a situation where the audio will gradually ramp each zone over a period of time. Maybe, for example, every 30min the volume of each zone increases by a certain % until it reaches its final volume?

Thanks for your help!

-I am kinda of getting the feeling that the C4 amp is not the best product to use for a multi-room audio application.

[AS2]

the C4 amp has the potential to be a great multi-room amp - certianly 8 zones, matrix switching and C4 integration is a great start - but there are bugs and it's killing me this week.

[ponchy5]

what are the issues that you are having AS2? What have you done to solve them (if there is a solution)? Has anybody requested a fix from C4?

I wonder if version 1.3 will address these issues? I have heard that it is going to be in may ways, a completely new product. It seems that, as somebody else previously said, all the products are sooooo close to being great, but fall just short.

[AS2]

We're having issues with tying more than one zone together in a container. For instance, three sets of stereo speakers always fed with the same input and volume changes occur together. This is cannot be done right now, and work our work around option will be to physically tie the speakers to the same speaker output!

The MUTE on the zones doesn't work. Lame.

The volume, as with all C4 volume controls, is slow to respond. So you end up with a VERY loud program 10 sec after hitting the up button.

They are small software issues that look very bad to the client. We can adjust for them now, and I still love the C4 solutions, but it needs to be taken care of very soon.

Ponchy, you're in Long Island! welcome!

[ponchy5]

AS2 yes I am on long island. I just starting to add C4 into my proposals and I feel like I am rolling the dice every time I do.

To be clear: Are you saying that, in the restaurant application that I am referring to, I will not be able to create a button to turn all of the zones on to a preset limit? (speakers in each zone will have different volume levels) I need to be 100% clear on this because I may have to make a phone call tomorrow and explain to the customer why I am now recommending another solution.

I would love to stop by your shop sometime and discuss C4 with you, if your cool with that? I am curious to know where your success and failures have been. My only success so far was an application that used a HTC to control a home theater and multi-room audio set up. No complaints so far, but it was a learning process. I guess another success would be my showroom, but that is only a MC and MTC for home theater control and Mp3 serving. If I can ever get an electrican to my shop I can get the dimmers hooked up as well. I have a 16-channel amp that I am going to start screwing with this week but now I think I may want to try and return it for the matrix switch.