Sharing distributed in-walls with computer audio output

[maxspivak]

I'm trying to figure out how to share the distributed audio inwall speakers in my home office with audio output by my mac.

Right now I have Triad InWall Gold Omni speakers mounted in a perfect position above my screen and keyboard. They're powered by Media Controller -> C4 Audio Matrix Switch -> B&K 1260 audio distribution amp. Electronics is in the theater rack, a few rooms away.

I want to hook up my computer audio output to my office speakers. This not as much for music as for any random pc audio output. It just doesn't make sense to use computer speakers when I have the Triads. As I see it, my options are:

1) Run analog audio from the mac audio output 100' to either the MC or matrix switch. However, I think the long analog run will degrade the audio SQ. Also, is there a way to default that the computer audio is always connected to office speakers?

2) Get audio output in digital from my mac via something like this http://www.turtlebeach.com/site/pro...ro/indetail.asp. Run spdif optical to the MC. Can you run optical 100'? Same audio defaulting question as in #1.

3) Connect the mac to a small stereo amp. Dual-wire the Triad speakers with the local in-room amp and distributed audio amp. Can I do this? Is it ok to connect two amps to a single speaker?

Would it be OK to have the speakers play music from the distributed audio amp as well as any audio from the pc? Let's assume you don't have to worry about exceeding the 100wpc power rating for the Triads.

Upside - no extra A/D - D/A conversions. Downside - need small stereo amp, more expensive.

4) Get the Ethernet Speaker Point. Connect Mac audio out -> speaker point audio in (A/D conversion - yuck!) -> ethernet -> Media Controller (D/A ) -> audio switch -> B&K amp -> speakers.

Downside: extra A/D and D/A conversion; more expensive esp. since I won't be using the speaker point amp. Same programming question as in #1.

Suggestions? Are there other ways to do this?

Thx,

Max

[AS2]

my advice is

buy an Airport Express and download this OSX program, AirFoil. You can set any desktop item as a streaming audio out. iTunes will stream too.

Get a decent DAC with an optical in and run optical from the Airport Express. From the DAC plug this, plus any of the other sources you want avaialble in that room (say, MC out 3, CATV, DVDstereo), into a small line mixer. I like this one here.

Plug the mixer output into the audio switch as a seperate source. Program the mixer as a 'source' and for C4 to always serve that sour

[ATOH]

What about something like this for your computer location?

http://www.nilesaudio.com/product.php?prodID=TVA50&recordID=Stereo%20Amplifier%20w/Built-In%20Auto%20Speaker%20Level%20Switching&categoryID=Automated%20Switching%20Systems&catcdID=10&prdcdID=FG01058

2 sources, auto switching, maybe?

[All Wired Up!]

Or something like this http://www.q5usa.com/proddetail.asp?prod=sti%2D2400CMB&cat=37 except in stereo. Or this http://www.amphony.com/products/l1000.htm

[dburton]

I have my PC audio out going into a C4 SpeakerPoint in the room. It works great.

[maxspivak]

I have my PC audio out going into a C4 SpeakerPoint in the room. It works great.

dburon, In this case, can you control volume from the PC? Or just via C4 remote/MTS/etc?

buy an Airport Express and download this OSX program, AirFoil. You can set any desktop item as a streaming audio out. iTunes will stream too.

Get a decent DAC with an optical in and run optical from the Airport Express. From the DAC plug this, plus any of the other sources you want avaialble in that room (say, MC out 3, CATV, DVDstereo), into a small line mixer.

Plug the mixer output into the audio switch as a seperate source. Program the mixer as a 'source' and for C4 to always serve that source

I wish I could use the airport express option wired. I have cat5 between the two locations, and copper is more robust than wireless. AS2, any DAC recommendations? I really like the little mixer you suggested.

ATOH, interesting solution for my option 3. The only question with it, is how to switch between the two source. It's autoswitching is either 12 v trigger or electrical current sensing. Getting either to work with a pc may be tricky. Froogle reports that it's about $240. Not cheap, but reasonable.

Any recommendations on best way to run analog audio for 100' if I went with option 1?

Thx! This forum is great!

[ATOH]

You have cat5 between the computer and your rack? Use an AudioControl piece

http://www.audiocontrolindustrial.com/product.asp?Product_Id=28289&d_id=8131&l1=8131&l2=

The Niles piece will automatically switch when it sees signal from the computer. Yes, it does actually work. You can adust at what level it will switch. This will allow you to control the audio from the computer.

[AS2]

Well, they say a good DAC is this. I haven't tried it, but I plan to - I use an old AudioAlchemy DAC for now.

If you've already got CAT5 run into that room, that audiocontrol thing looks perfect. The Airport Express will delay your output by a second or two, the hardwire will be immediate. The Airport is very solid however, and it's a great USB printer server too.

There are a few ways to handle this, I'm sure you'll find the right combo.

[All Wired Up!]

Using two AMPed sources wired to your speakers could work but it depends on the amplifiers and speakers. Your current amp can handle 4 OHMS minimum but your speakers minimum is 6.2. There are many here that know more about ohms and ceilings and such. I personally just don't do this.

If you have a network cable going from the Mac to the A/V closet why not just convert two twisted pair to line level audio? I've done this over 50' or so with no issues. I understand that you could also use baluns to greatly reduce or eliminate any possibility of interference.

The question at this point I think from your post is how to use other audio sources from your system without knocking out the computer audio stream.

You could just combine the line level signals from the MC and the computer after the switch since the 1260 has auto on. Here's some info that may help you with that: http://www.tkk.fi/Misc/Electronics/circuits/linesum.html . You could now control the audio level from the computer with the computer and the MC with the control4 UID's.

I'm trying to think of very low cost solutions, not necessarily the most elegant

[ATOH]

.

[ATOH]

I personally just don't do this.

What exactly do you "personally just don't do"? Understand and use Ohm's law?

[ATOH]

.

[maxspivak]

Guys, thanks for all your help.

I will keep the computer output in the analog domain. This allows for software volume control.

Here's the diagram I came up with, just to help my own understanding. I think the main decision is whether I want the mac output and distributed audio output switched or mixed. I'm leaning towards mixed, option A. This way if I the office music zone is on, a random computer blip will be mixed in, instead of turning off the main stream. This does leverage the auto-on capability of the 1260.

Comments?

Thx again,

Max

[All Wired Up!]

ATOH,

Save your stupid lectures. He's not working on a client, he's working on his own system. If he wants to try a low cost solution in his own home, more power to him, he's there to troubleshoot it.

I know everything I need to know about OHMs. Make sure the devices being connected are within the same minimum and maximum specs. No genius there.

Integration requires good knowledge in many fields but more than that it requires the ability to gain the knowledge on the fly, grasp it, and work it into the system. Can you troubleshoot a DirectWay, WildBlue, or StarBand satellite internet system if your C4 isn't downloading correctly? I can. If you lose the even transponders on a DirectTV system, whats the cause? You've integrated the customers phone system and it works great except now they can't receive faxes, why?

While I didn't enter the integration field with exceptional A/V knowledge, there is NOTHING A/V I can't learn in a matter of minutes. You need to correct yourself and stop jumping on people who are here trying to help. I just may have the knowledge that will save your a$$ on a job but the question now is will I share it with you.

[ATOH]

Done

[maxspivak]

Thanks guys.

No comments on my "purty pictcher"?

I'm leaning towards option A.

[ATOH]

Max,

The line drawing is awesome. Did you use Visio or Photoshop (or something similar)?

If you like doing drawings like this, especially for equipment, Visio works pretty well. There are some stencils that you can buy, like http://www.netzoomav.com/home/index.asp , and of course you can create your own. This way you can actually lay out the connections and have your whole system planned out down to the connectors, etc. before even ordering any product.

Great tools for both DIY and pros, as it helps to make sure you don't forget anything!

[maxspivak]

I used OmniGraffle on Mac (http://www.omnigroup.com/applications/omnigraffle/). Very easy to create templates. Just drag & drop images.

NetZoomAV looks cool. A bit too expensive for a hobby (I'd rather get another LCD keypad ). But I can see how it would be invaluable for a pro.

Cheers!

[ATOH]

There are cheaper solutions Max. I'll see if I can dig them up for you. We originally used the NetZoomAV stencils with Visio and have since migrated to D-Tools about 1 year ago.

With the capability of both OS X and Windows on one machine now you may see another convert to Apple from me. I'd love to have a nice Powerbook for everyday use and then be able to run Windows for systems programming.

[All Wired Up!]

Thank you ATOH for making my point.

You ranted about my self-admitted lack of concern about OHMs and here in about 6.3 seconds (that's a rough estimate) http://www.legendarytones.com/all_about_ohms.htm I found all I needed to know about OHMs if a customer had a special request. You, on the other hand, are foolishly advising that well installed modern KA satellite internet services are unstable and even compared them to KU internet services and point to point wireless which can range from very good to complete crap based on 1000 variables and you don't know the answer to one of the most basic POTS questions.

My point being, get off your horse because I'll school you on a hundred subjects publicly here if you'd like.

It's people like you who throw $300 name brand products at people, who only wanted to hear their computer sounds over their existing speakers, that give this industry a bad name. If you were as knowledgeable as you profess you surely could have come up with a solution for hearing a beep or bong for less than $300!

Now, I have better things to do than reply to your arrogance. Good day.

[ATOH]

Done.

[All Wired Up!]

Maxspivak,

I'm very sorry we hijacked your thread. You might want to post another in case people aren't reading this one because of all of the hot air and drivel.

ATOH,

You said "You can only implement the full capabilities of the products you are using if you understand the standards and science behind how ALL of the product interacts with each other. " Yet you apparently don't know very much about satellite internet or phones. Are you saying no one uses satellite internet or phones in their integrated home or do you fail to meet your own criteria?

You then flip-flop with "It's not what you know, it's who you know and who you surround yourself with.". Which is it? Because I am surrounded by people who know more about OHM's than I'll ever need to ask and, funny, but I've never needed to ask. However, if I ever decide to hook "4 pair of 8 OHM speakers to a 8 OHM capable amplifier" you can be sure that I'm fully aware that there will be an OHM issue and that I can either google the answer in 6.3 seconds (that's an estimate) or tap my partner on the shoulder and say hey, what do we do here.

I hope you listen to your clients better than you listened to Max. He is looking for a simple solution to carry basic computer sounds to existing speakers. He's mentioned cost several times and also mentioned that he would like the audio streams combined and not switched. Your solution is a $300 device that switches. You continue to say that my suggestion would be unstable with no explanation, perhaps this is just another area where your knowledge is lacking?

For everyone else here, I most certainly don't know everything as I'm sure you don't either. I come here to help when I can and to learn when I can't. Don't let this fool keep you from posting for fear that some arrogant "know it all" will attack you for stating "There are many here that know more about ohms and ceilings and such." That's what this forum is for. I hope that at least you've been as entertained as I have.

[mbuster]

I personally just don't do this.

What exactly do you "personally just don't do"? Understand and use Ohm's law?

I dunno.....

this struck me as being pretty funny, All Wired Up. Understandably, you feel disrespected in front of your peers, but a flame ware won't make it any better. Believe me, I know.

I say let it drop, and have peace.

[chambrick]

Max,

Did you implement a solution yet? If not I just wanna throw another brand option atcha for the audio via Cat5E:

http://www.audioplex.com/catilink.htm

Also, I've done line level successfully about 100 feet or so using Liberty Wire's serial digital cable (RG59). I didn't put any scope on it or anything but I think the sound is fine.

[maxspivak]

I haven't implemented anything yet. I went to a local store and took look at the audiocontrol boxes. I gotta finish up the main theater first. But thanks all for all the suggestions.

Max