Charlie Mackenzie

20 hours ago, DLite said:

You forgot the nuclear solution: switch them all to IR control!  

I did end up switching all our Sony TVs to IR after intermittent hassles with IP control.  I wish I had done it sooner, as I don't think I ever leveraged IP control for anything useful, and IR is headache-free.

 

We had a lot of these same issues where C4 could not control the Sony Tvs and in some cases it was intermittent. We even moved to IR control as well which only solved some of the problem which was C4 controlling the TV. We isolated the issue to the TVs as even on standalone TV it would not be able to connect to the internet despite being on a network (either LAN or WIFI). We tried connecting it to a mobile network WIFI and that also said cannot connect to the internet, despite LGs in the house not having that issue. Sony had indicated there were some network issues with some of their TVs and replaced ours at no cost. Since the replacement, we are back on IP control and no issues to date. 

On 2/1/2022 at 10:15 PM, luckyc1423 said:

Background on my equipment: 

1) using Xantech XT-CAT-ARC-KIT Audio over CAT cable with Built-In DAC

2) distributed video - Zuum H10X10 HDMI 10x10 4Kx2K Matrix Switcher with Full 3D Support

3) Control4 C4-EA5

4) All TV's - Sony XBR65X800H in all rooms (just different sizes) bought in early 2021

 

I bought all new TV's, sony TV's to make sure we could use IP as i didnt want to be forced to use IR.

 

We are having issues, random issues, and my dealer that i use is wanting to switch over to IR to remove the issues. He said he was having issues with IP and now all his clients are on IR. He is amazing and very responsitive (talks to me anytime of night when i have questions - very good). 

 

This is my last ditch effort in hopes that someone else knows what is going on with the sony tv's. as my IP works well for everything else. cameras, satellite dish cable, audio, lights...etc....

 

Issues i am having (these are random issues, they dont happen everyday. i would say happens every other day but when it happens it lasts for a hour). My dealer says since everythign on IP is working beside the sony tv's that he believes there is a random issue happenign with sony tv's. again this is my last ditch effort to get ideas before having to go to IR.

 

Random list of issues:

1) If we use the smart apps on the TV (using control4) and turn the tv off. then turn the tv back on the next day or a different time in cable mode the music/sound will come out of my surround sound in cable mode but the TV is stuck in TV mode. It stays this way for 30 minutes - 2 hours and then randomly will start working if we mess with it enough.

            -- We are buying a Apple TV. My dealer is going to install it free of charge he says he can disable the TV option in control4 and only use apple TV so we dont run into the smart TV issue again.

         -- this doesnt happen in all rooms at the same tv. for example it could happen in the living room, but the master bedroom works fine at that exact time. then the next time it could happen in the master bedroom and the living room would work fine.

 

2) The TV sometimes will not turn on when we command it to turn on. the only random way to fix this is to unplug it from the wall and replug it in. The issue with doing this is some of my TV's are very tight on the wall and its hard to get to the power cord so it can be a pain.

 

3) again like number 1 above - what is displaying on the tv (cable or smart tv mode) the audio will be the opposite. it is really frustrating. If its in smart TV mode it can be really difficult to get it out of that mode. sometimes the TV doesnt respond at all.

 

4) sometimes the TV will not turn on, but the sound will come on through the surround sound. so if i click cable tv living room. living room speakers come on but tv stays off.

 

My dealer believes somethign must be going on with Sony. is there a simple fix for these issues? i really dont want to have to go to IR but these issues are so frustrating as if it happens right when the ball game seems to be come on or happens everytime my wife uses the TV and she gets frustrated.

I have had the exact same issues - almost everyone you have. I have 5 Sony TV's (new as of September) and 1 Samsung. 2 of the Sony TVs have this issue. Sometimes they wont turn on via C4, other times they turn on, but stay on the main screen despite pushing Netflix or something to that affect. I have to go find the TV remote in the AV room and do it manually. In this case, the TV is the source and it is using the native apps within. Switching to WI-FI might help in the moment, but it comes to a crashing halt as well and sometimes would say not connected and could not find any wi-fi signals. I had come to the conclusion it was a network issue with Sony. Dealer said there is a network issue with Sony and it is intermittent and is TV dependent. As absurd as that sounds, it is true based on my experience in my house. TVs which are toggled using a AVR and Apple TV seem to be fine with no issues. The ones that use the applications within the TV are hit and miss. 

We also switched to IR as well so it was doing both IR and IP control - same issues prevail. At the point of considering replacing the TVs now but have not had the issue for a few weeks now so cautiously optimistic. 

My understanding is that MyQ use to allow integration with Control4 but no longer does. Having both, I was disappointed to learn from my dealer (i checked with another dealer to confirm) that it cannot be done. 

Apparently there is a way to hotwire a relay into the garage system that control4 can use, but it is not a "clean" solution. 

I just decided the number of times that i would require this functionality, I would wait until either they work with Control4 again, or some new solution comes out. 

A friend of mine was not as patient as me and went a direction of integrating a Control4 switch (lighting switch) to toggle open and closed, but you don't get the status of the door being open and closed and thus could not integrate programming such as if open at Midnight, close the door. MyQ has that which is the reason I decided it was not worth it. At some point, the process, work, and cost of integration is more than the benefits derived in my view.  

Hopefully that helps some.

On 1/21/2022 at 5:11 PM, istreich said:

Can't comment on Ra3 obviously but I have been very happy with my Lutron Ra2/Control4 mixed set-up. Lutron lighting control is bulletproof and very reliable. Integration between both systems is seamless (there are a few best practices to be aware such as the use of phantom buttons to avoid popcorn effect for ex) and you can easily mix and match keypads and other controlling devices depending on what you are looking for. 

With online (free and premium) training (depending on the version of the software, at least for Ra2), homeowners can program their system themselves and have full control. 

If I had to do it again, I would not hesitate! The quality and flexibility of Lutron for lighting control combined with Control4 broad capability is a perfect fit. 

I have nothing against Control4 lighting capability (except personal preference for Lutron dimmers design) and I can see both options being acceptable. One advantage though going Lutron is that you can have consistent dimmers look across the house even if you don't automate every single one on day one. You can buy "basic" maestro dimmers for $15 for areas that don't necessarily need to be controlled as often. They will look identical to your Ra2 ones. And you can pick any color you want! Big budget impact...

By the way, any company can go under... but I think the odds of either Lutron or Control4 doing so are slim. Lutron is pretty established and has a solid business in traditional lighting control. Control4 is now part of SnapOne which went public last summer and was owned by a top Private Equity firm that diversified and grew its business.

Don't hesitate to ask for help or experience sharing as you move forward. Enjoy!

Thanks - on the companies going under - I get it - it is unlikely - but lots do. It was more C4 seems to be a bit glitchy in some other aspects and I am nervous I could pull the plug some day. Lutron, in a worse case scenario ceases to exist, the dimmers still work as normal dimmers and one can turn them on with the buttons in each room. I realize C4 is the same, but I have more faith in a basic processor for lights lasting longer than C4 which would be needed for any keypads. It was more to just not have my entire house's basic functions on a single vendor. A friend up state pulled his entire C4 system out as it was too glitchy and the dealers (multiple) could not correct for what he felt were some basics. So, he wished he had done Lutron, but the C4 dimmers still work as a stand alone item.

I really appreciate all the comments. Based on my read of the comments, I will likely go with Lutron. 

53 minutes ago, LollerAgent said:

I went with RA2 Select, and I'm glad I did for reasons that you highlighted.  I would probably go with RA3 now (drivers should be available soon).  I really don't like the look of the C4 switches, but that has improved (in my opinion) with the new contemporary line.  The RA3 dimmer bars look super cool, though.

I supplement Lutron with C4 keypads in several locations.  They activate lighting scenes on Lutron loads, give me "Away" buttons, provide media control, operate shades, etc.  If you do choose Lutron, I would highly recommend doing the same.

C4 switches do act as Zigbee extenders (probably the wrong term) and make your mesh stronger which you will lose if you go with Lutron.  But, this has not been a problem for me because I have C4 keypads in a few select locations.  You also don't get the programmable LEDs on the C4 switches or the double/triple tap programming that you would get if you had C4.

Overall, I'm very happy with Lutron, and it's been rock solid - both functionality-wise and in it's integration with C4.  With that being said, I do believe C4 lighting is one of their core strengths and I'm not sure you would be disappointed either way.

Thanks for this detailed response - this answered my exact question. I will take the advice and augment with a few C4 keypads - but will do a dimmer/keypad combo so to not need to insert a new switch in the gang. 

Really appreciate all the comments. 

54 minutes ago, RAV said:

It'll just cost you more.

But sounds like your mind is made up to use Lutron. Extra time in programing, hardare a little more with duplication of processors, but you can accomplish what you want, Lutron integration is excellent.

The grey area is keypads. If you want them to control your music system volume and what not, then Control4 keypads are more adept. If it's just a couple buttons for away to turn down heat etc, you could stay with Lutron for keypads.

Thank you for this - no need to media control on these. Just lighting. This was most helpful. 

I will keep this short - we are looking to add either C4 switches and dimmers or Lutron. I am resistant to have C4 handle everything as that places all eggs in one basket, but have also had more glitches with C4 in other areas making me more hesitant - all resolved, but don't really want to have glitches with core things like lighting - no matter how solid it is. 

The question I am trying to answer is does anyone have any experience with both and might have a recommendation? I would like C4 to handle the control either way, but the fact that it is Lutron hardware means that if we decide C4 should no longer be in our house, we are at least not replacing the lighting. So, from this standpoint, I am inclined to go Lutron RA3. If C4/SNAP cease to exist some day (not saying they will, but they may decide to discontinue service) if acquired by someone else, go under (its possible), or decide that farming is more profitable and become a crop company, my lights are still independent - I am clearly aware this is not likely, but banks, insurance companies and other companies many times their size do in fact discontinue service or go under - so just considering all outcomes.

Requirements:

• Away button on keypad for when leaving house to turn lights off (not connected to Alarm system and wont be) - say with coming home.
• Ability to turn lights on or off in each room remotely via other keypads or C4
• Occupancy sensors for bathrooms in the night
• Approximately 45 dimmers and 30 switches required.

Looking for views to see if people who have experience with both see drawbacks to going the Lutron route.

Really appreciate any feedback/guidance.

 Charlie - NYC

Equipment - 2x EA5, CA1, Audio Matrix, 3x 8 zone amps, LUMA NVR, 3x Yamaha AVRs, Araknis network equipment (2x 24 POE switch, Router, 12 Switch), Pakedge PDU, APC, 3x tabletop C4 screens.  

If it is helpful, we are going from a Yamaha Receiver via a HDMI Extender and when using the Apple TV Netflix app it goes to a black screen for a few seconds ever once in a while and then the picture comes back. its annoying, but had not found a solution Yet. The only commonality is the HDMI extender. I am surprised a app would cause this as i would have thought the Apple TV puts out a consistent signal so I have no helpful ideas on the APP being the issue. I had just assumed it was the HDMI extender. 

Charlie - NY 

On 12/23/2021 at 11:45 AM, BubbaDuck said:

This is the right answer. I went absolutely bonkers for 6 months troubleshooting this exact issue and enabling Simple (despite the driver docs making it sound like a leper) fixed everything. Three months in and I haven’t had a panicked pissed off call since.

My understanding is that SONY has a network card issue in this area. I am unsure if it is a hardware issue at this point or a software issue. Don't know if anyone else has heard this. Or do the solutions suggested above account for SONY's glitches and this is a workaround. I am just not sure about keeping TVs that are known to have an issue, especially if you indicated you just bought them. 

14 hours ago, South Africa C4 user said:

Sounds like your camera driver may have a bug (given that you have had the issue for 3 years plus).

Thanks for that. Not sure as dealer installed it all at the same time about a year ago and updated all the drivers recently. All cameras are HIK vision on a LUMA NVR. So, its interesting and will inquire with them to see if this is an issue. 

Thanks again,

On 11/7/2018 at 9:54 PM, Drake0508 said:

Anyone else having trouble with the app crashing? It’s happening on my iPhone and my iPads. It seems to only do it when I open my security camera feeds. 

Question, is this still an issue? We have this issue on our ipads, phones etc. We have a LUMA 8 channel NVR all IP cameras which are plugged into the switch. Everything is the latest version of software. 

Charlie - NYC

20 hours ago, Control4Savant said:

The matrix is the source of audio for both of the areas and at the start of the chain. The delay is in the AVR. It’s a pretty “normal” problem when not included in part of the original design.  Use IP/POE speakers for distribution and generic surround sound where the processing is done individually… 2ms max delay even bests analog zone systems. 

Thank you everyone. The dealer updated the firmware on the receiver and the delay disappeared. Seemed like an unlikely fix, but it is gone none the less. There were some sound settings that were in the new firmware that seemed to allow them to use a "direct" mode that seems to work this time when it made the delay less last time (thanks to whoever made that suggestion previously), but now it is gone (or at least not noticeable. 

14 minutes ago, ekohn00 said:

I don't think there's a clear explanation of the streaming path, but if it wasn't mentioned, and I assume the triad is between the receiver and speakers...id check that it's the same zone as theater speakers (main), not zone 2. if you switch zones on a lot of receivers the processing might add a delay...sometimes it might not even work, depending on the source.

 

Thanks for the thoughts. The Triad is not "between" them. The sound leaves C4 EA5 via the digital outs (not HDMI) and goes into the audio matrix and then to the TRIAD Amps. While at the same time it also goes from that same matrix (TRIAD AMS 24) into the receiver and is set up to play "direct" so should not be doing processing. Yet, still there is a delay. The source is all the same path until the amps. Then one zone comes from the Matrix to the receiver as an audio in and then the other goes to the triad amps, all from the matrix. We have tried changing the inputs on the receiver as well. 

I think at this point the fix we will take here in New York is the simple one. Different zones for the same zone so that some of the speakers are driven from the triad amps in the AVR zone as well.

1 hour ago, Control4Savant said:

We have clean answers you have been given. They involve changing some things, not just swapping to another AVR. You want to have a digital processor on one piece of unrelated hardware work magically with an analog distribution system and that’s not going to happen without redesigning the system as it should have been done or changing the connections of your current hardware. 

Apologies if it was not clear above - I have tried many of these things (via the dealer) who also follows this forum now. 

Again, thanks to the community at large. 

1 hour ago, Control4Savant said:

How is what possible? Are you trying to sync multiple AVRs? Just because you want something doesn’t mean it magically happens. 

How is it possible that what seems to be a common problem does not have a common solution. All I am trying to do is have a receiver that powers a TV zone have the same audio timing as the rest of the control4 triad platform as this TV zone is in an open space with a bunch of other zones. So, in order to not here an echo there needs to be some correction. I think best answer is to put extra speakers in the ceiling that only work with the Triad platform and then just have the receiver as dedicated TV. therefore no delay and no part of the open concept living space without sound. Seems excessive, but it will solve it. Now, we just need to solve the subwoofer issue which is on the receiver but wanted for the audio zones as well. might just look for a sub with two line ins and run one from the matrix to the sub and the other from the AVR to the sub. 

again, my comment was around this is not a unique problem and based on responses to this, it clearly is an ongoing thing. just no clean answer to date. Lots of Band-Aids and trial and error. 

Everyone has been super helpful, really appreciate the feedback. I have tried a few of these suggestions (thank you to the community) but they don't seem to work for my application.

13 hours ago, Control4Savant said:

As Lippa said… You can set your AVR into a direct mode to pass the processor but you will only have the front left/right. Any type of processing (surround or multi-stereo) will delay the signal versus your analog distrusted system.  Otherwise you can attempt to sync manual set delays. 

How many zones are neighboring the AVR zone? I assume they will all be on at the same time at all times? Do you need the surround sound or are you using the AVR mostly for video switching? You could preamp out off an AVR into your distribution but that will be redesigning your system to an extent. 

We have tried going "direct" on the AVR and other workarounds. No dice. The AVRs are only used in rooms where there are larger TV's (like a large family room) that is next to a kitchen. The AVRs are needed for surround sound. 

Seems to be such a basic problem and yet there does not seem to be a solution two separate dealers can come up with. How is this possible?

It also happens with a Yamaha now in addition to my Sony. I borrowed a friends Yamaha and had the same outcome. So, hopefully someone here has had this issue come up and has a fix for it? Seems to be a common theme.

Hi there, I am trying to install a TV zone where sound is powered by an Sony receiver and other bar zones within an open concept space beside it are powered by the C4/Triad system. All components in the rack, and I have a echo effect as they are not synced clearly. I assume there is processing happening in the receiver that is causing this but assume this is a common issue but could not find much on it. Can anyone clarify if this is common or has anyone come up with a solution?

Second to that, I wanted to have the subwoofer from the TV/Receiver also be used when the zone next door is on without the receiver zone being on. Is this possible? Alternatively we could power the sub from the TRIAD amps and have that come on the same time as the TV/Receiver but wasn't sure if there was processing that would be missing going this way?

I welcome any advice,

Charlie

NYC

7 hours ago, bobbay said:

Your USD prices are high. No idea if those canadian $ prices are correct. Adaptive phase dimmer $187 MSRP  USD. Keypad Dimmer $260 MSRP USD

Thanks for your help, and everyone else as well. 

Thank you everyone for your advice!! Really, much appreciated. Always good to see how others think about this as I am an end consumer in NYC and just like to do my research. I will likely order the keypads and the normal (non-essential) line for high value rooms where I am more concerned and then use some of the essential line for the less important rooms. There are a lot of 3-way switches I will try and use the auxiliary keypads for as well. 

Does anyone know where a current pricing sheet is? A friend of mine in Canada is also looking to do some of this and he says he is being quoted $345.00 CAD ($275 USD) for a dimmer/keypad combo, adaptive phase dimmer at $292 CAD ($233 USD) for a adaptive dimmer. These prices just seem higher than I might have thought.  

3 minutes ago, msgreenf said:

When your dealer sets up the network for all the lights, you're only supposed to have approximately 70 devices on a single mesh. Since you have multiple controllers, you can run multiple meshes. I would try to split them as much as possible between the two meshes for best performance

Thank you for that! Very helpful! There seems to be some concern from a few dealers that mixing the essential line with the normal line might lead to issues. Based on what you chopedogg88 said, it appears this is not an issue. So, I guess I am at a loss on why anyone would use the more expensive lineup? 

if they work well, I would use the essential for all the dimmers and the more expensive keypads. 

Just now, msgreenf said:

Agree. But I would be planning for 2 meshes w that # of devices

Can you confirm what you mean by two meshes? 

Hi there, 

We are expanding the C4 platform to include lighting in the house, if people would recommend it. Because it is a retrofit, I am wondering how reliable the C4 dimmers and keypads are. I am an end consumer and not a dealer but have a dealer. I am seeking wider advice. 

My plan would be to replace approximately 75 dimmers in the house with C4 dimmers and keypads. The idea would be that one C4 keypad per set of wall switches and the others would be C4 dimmers that would rarely, if ever be used. They are there to work with the keypads. I am a stickler for high quality things that work and accept I will need to pay for that so no concerns there. I just want to ensure that I don't find myself in a position where I push a keypad button and maybe one of the dimmers associated with that keypad does not come on for whatever reason (interference, zigbee issues, etc). I need this to work all the time (or 99.9%). If there is a chance it will be a constant source of frustration, I will not do this. 

I was also considering using the "Essential" series for some of the dimmers as they are cheaper and all they are to be used for is "dummy" dimmers as the keypads are the primary action items being used. anyone have experience with using these with the main lighting line? For clarity, I am not going panelized lighting... that is not feasible to add in a 6,000 sq foot fully built home and i also dont want to be beholden to C4 for absolute basics light lighting. At least if the C4 platform fails, the dimmers still actually work the old fashioned way. 

Current Equipment:

EA5, EA3, EA1, Triad AMPS, audio and video Matrix, Lutron blinds, etc. 

Many thanks,

Charlie

Hi there, we currently have a house with a C4 system (EA5, Traid amps, etc) that we are taking to a new house we purchased in New York. The house is fully finished so it is a retrofit. Dealer wants to outfit the home in all Araknis equipment including access points and replacing some of the in ceiling speakers.

Question 1 - I am questioning using a integrated type solution like Araknis or pakedge when we could use dell or cisco. Why are the integrated solutions always preferred? my concern is   maybe i don't want C4 or something like that in the future and now i have only "dealer" equipment. Why would one not use more open source type stuff for at least the network. I cant imagine dell switches for commercial purposes are lesser quality then Araknis as an example. 

Question 2 - How to handle the video. I am a huge proponent of having everything in one rack. This may not seem logical, but that is the way we like it. To that end, I am trying to decide how to get video to the TV in the room (and the associated audio to the speakers in the ceiling in that room). We could put the cable boxes in the rack and run something (what is that something? HDMI to cat 6 converters?) or video distribution. I don't want to go video distribution as it is expensive and gets out dated fast. I think I would rather put the apple TV behind the tv mount and have sources at the TVs. But then that gets to how to you get the sound back to the rack? Can a Ca1 help with this? does it just take it back via CAT 6? Not sure how best to use a CA1 I guess. We will have a bunch of control 4 light switches (just replacing normal light switches with C4 which will expand Zigbe). 

Question 3 - Anyone have experience with battery life in Lutron shades? I am debating wiring them in, but if the battery life is sufficiently strong, maybe no need. Also, I am not clear on how they connect to Control 4. If blinds are going across multiple levels of the house, how do they connect to control them? do I need multiple wireless hubs or whatever they are?

Question 4 - Subwoofers - How do they integrate with zones? if we have a living room that has a sound zone and we want a powered sub there as well, what are the wiring mechanics for this? what if the room is two separate zones as it is really a dining room and living room (with 2 zones) but we want the sub on with either zone. just curious on the connections/mechanics with this.

Question 5 - any views on wiring suggestions. I realize without plans this is hard - but consider a perfect AV closet in the basement and only a few speakers have been run. I now need to get access points to all floors, more speaker wires to all floors, and whatever the video solution is in question 2. Welcome any feedback anyone has who has contemplated a retrofit like this. I am comfortable putting holes in drywall. Just would like to minimize to the extent possible. We have drywallers and painters coming afterwards.

I realize I can ask the dealer some of these things, but I like to be a very informed consumer so i am not just taking one dealer's opinion here. Thus I welcome all your expertise. 

On 10/2/2021 at 1:31 PM, Evanston45 said:

Thank you to everyone for your insight…I really appreciate it! One more question that is probably silly…if I buy Sonos amps and connect to my wired speakers, can I also use C4 as another music option without integrating Sonos? Like do the speakers have to be plugged into either the Sonos or the C4, or can they share the two systems somehow so I can keep sonos app and also use C4 if I wanted?

I went through a lot of this debate when I started this process. Apologies if you know some of what i am saying below. You likely figured out you will need a C4 Audio Matrix (to control the individual sources for various speakers) and the amps. C4 makes their own amps as well (Triad). If you go Sonos, your speakers plug into those amps. If you go C4, speakers plug into those amps. C4 can control the Sonos amps and send music to each room. The thing here is Sonos you need to buy one amp for each room (unless they started making a rack mount multichannel amp in the last few months) or a C4 amp which can come in a single 4 zone or a single 8 zone. 

Based on what you are trying to do for multiple rooms, i would think C4 is the better route. I am just not familiar with how to get apple music to C4 never having tried but assume there is a way.