Thinking of Taking the C4 Plunge

[paulmon]

My Harmony is driving me nuts. I need better integration, better control, and I think C4 is the way to go. I'm thinking the HC300. Is there an FAQ or anything I can read that explains better than C4's crappy website what is possible with this controller? Maybe someone has a video of an HC300 implementation. Initially I'm going to control my home theater components, and dimmers in the home theater room.

I'd love to see a video of what C4 is like operating with the remote vs a touch screen. What's it like in "day to day" operation. What can it do above and beyond control my components? Is there a web interface so you can control from a PC? Seems to be able to play MP3's from a USB drive and/or network share. Can it play video this way too? The controller outputs some kind of video interface but no where can I see what that looks like. How does that integrate with a HT that's all HDMI when the controller itself has no HDMI? Come to think of it why doesn't it have HDMI?

My biggest single concern is programming. I want to be sure I can do changes myself without calling my installer back every time. Heck, I'd prefer to install it myself, but that doesn't look like an option.

Can someone give me an idea what I should budget for an HC300 installed to control the following:

Integra DTR-7.2 Receiver (Being replaced in 6 months or so)

Bell ExpressVU 9200 Sat Receiver

Sony BDP-350 BR Player

Panasonic PTAE-900 720P Projector

3 Dimmers

Ideally I want to control the receiver and Panasonic projector via serial, assuming there is no loss in functionality doing it that way.

Anyone have any tips, suggestions etc? Better still, can you recommend a C4 dealer in the Toronto area?

Cheers,

Paul

[RyanE]

The HC-300 was designed, sized, and priced to be targetted to control the gear in your home theater, but is not limited in any way to *just* controlling a home theater. That is, you can also control 3rd-party gear, like security panels, HVAC controllers, etc. like you can with larger controllers.

For example, I use an HC-300 as my master controller to control my entire home (50+ dimmers, 4-5 mini-touch touchpanels, a 400-disc DVD changer, a home theater, 8 rooms of multi-room audio, etc.), and it works well.

While I can't recommend a specific dealer in Toronto, and I won't guesstimate as to how much an install using your gear would cost, I will walk through the inputs/outputs on the back of the HC-300, basically talking about what the controller itself can do, like I do at CEDIA or CES for homeowners...

Refer to this image to follow along:

http://control4.com/_images/78-BE81976F/source.jpg

First, obviously, there's the power connector on the left. Works as you would expect.

The Video Outs are used to provide an on-screen display which you can use to control your system. It's not HDMI because the on-screen does not require it. Since it's only a control screen for the system, the resolutions available are SD (480p) or HD (720p), neither of which require HDMI for a decent signal. There are 3 types of outputs, because you would typically use an unused input on your projector or big-screen to display the on-screen display. You can use SD on either Composite or S-Video, or the HD 720P on the Component output. You can only use one or the other, not both simultaneously.

The Audio Outputs are there because the system has the ability to stream MP3's, either stored on the network, or on a USB-attached hard drive. The system can stream two independent MP3 streams, so these audio outputs could be put into a receiver in the theater, and you get that functionality. The system also maintains the music collection for you, and you can use the on-screen display to select the music you wish to play. The HC-300 also has a built-in Rhapsody client, but unfortunately for you, Rhapsody only offers their service in the US.

The Audio in is because the HC-300 also can take an analog source, and stream it across the network to either other controllers, or to an audio endpoint, that we call a SpeakerPoint.

The Video sense loops are for older gear, that does not have a discrete power functionality, you can tell whether video gear is active or not depending on whether it's putting out an active video signal on it's composite output. With this, and gear that only supports power toggle, the controller can intelligently manage the power of the device.

The Ethernet connection is because the controller lives on your network, and can communicate with other Control4 and 3rd-party devices, and retrieve MP3's, etc. over the network connection.

The USB connector is for a USB-attached hard drive which can be used to hold your MP3 music library.

The contact and relay are typically used to control a motorized screen in your home theater if you have one.

The serial ports (2) on the HC-300 can be used to control serially-controlled devices, and lastly, the IR outputs (6) are used to control devices that you would typically control via your IR remote control.

There are a few other capabilities the unit has that are not exposed through the back panel:

Zigbee: The controller has a native Zigbee transceiver built-in, and you can use it to control Control4 lighting, keypads, and some 3rd-party (CardAccess) devices. This allows you in a home theater situation to dim your lights to your level when you are watching your movies, etc. You also can use the built-in astronomical clock to control porch lighting, etc. on a schedule or +/- sunrise/sunset.

Included with the HC-300 is a 2-way Zigbee remote control. This remote control is used to navigate the on-screen display, but can also be used with it's built-in LCD to control the system when you don't want to interrupt your movie, etc. to bring up the on-screen display.

There's additional functionality in the controller, such as an IR blaster, etc., but the main points are those above.

As far as programming the system, the Installer software, called ComposerPro, is only available to installers, but a version called Composer Home Edition is available to homeowners, and it lets you do 90+% of the things the installer can do with ComposerPro. It lets you do programming, scheduling, media management, etc.

The things it does *not* let you do include: Installing a system, adding new components to the system, doing 'bindings', which are basically a mirror of your physical system's component connections, so the system knows how things are connected together (part of installing a system).

Most everything else (lighting scenes, timers, conditional and statement programming, astronomical clock, playlists, wakeups, etc.) you can do with HE.

Please don't hesitate to ask any additional questions about Control4.

I wish you luck in your choice to go with Control4. The forums here are a great resource for homeowners should you choose to go with Control4.

I think it's the right choice, but I'm a bit biased, since I work there.

RyanE

[RyanE]

Also, although I don't know of a video that shows how the on-screen display works and how the LCD on the remote works, I would think your best bet would be to find a local dealer (even if you don't decide to go with them for the install), and try it yourself.

The on-screen navigation works pretty much *exactly* as you would expect (up/down/left/right and select/cancel), and the LCD navigation on the remote is equally easy, although a bit more tedious.

RyanE

[paulmon]

Please don't hesitate to ask any additional questions about Control4.

I wish you luck in your choice to go with Control4. The forums here are a great resource for homeowners should you choose to go with Control4.

I think it's the right choice, but I'm a bit biased, since I work there.

RyanE

Thanks Ryan, you've pretty much confirmed everything I thought i knew. Does the system offer a web based interface? Not the "my.control4.com" but does the 300 system have an actual web interface itself to present an interface similar to the onscreen interface?

Paul

[paulmon]

Also, although I don't know of a video that shows how the on-screen display works and how the LCD on the remote works, I would think your best bet would be to find a local dealer (even if you don't decide to go with them for the install), and try it yourself.

The on-screen navigation works pretty much *exactly* as you would expect (up/down/left/right and select/cancel), and the LCD navigation on the remote is equally easy, although a bit more tedious.

RyanE

I would assume the system would be programmed that if you use the remote "cursor" keys that it could switch the input on your TV so instantly show the on screen display?

I really hope there is a web interface, I'd love to integrate it with my home network to that degree. I have many PCs, portable web devices, etc in the house, which makes them suitable control points.

Paul

[henniae]

There is currently no web interface that you can run on your PC other than my.control4.com.

there is an application in development for the iPhone that give you the C4 GUI.

[paulmon]

There is currently no web interface that you can run on your PC other than my.control4.com.

there is an application in development for the iPhone that give you the C4 GUI.

Damn. I read that you can telnet into the device and that it runs Linux. I'm a long time (15 years) Linux user, so maybe I can create my own web interface <shrug>

[henniae]

There is currently no web interface that you can run on your PC other than my.control4.com.

there is an application in development for the iPhone that give you the C4 GUI.

Damn. I read that you can telnet into the device and that it runs Linux. I'm a long time (15 years) Linux user' date=' so maybe I can create my own web interface <shrug>[/quote']

It is probably possible to *hack* a web interface to C4. However, C4 has not published any of the protocols that are used in the system so even if you could sniff around and figure out the communication protocols and file formats there is no guarantee that those APIs and protocols will not change in the future.

[paulmon]

There is currently no web interface that you can run on your PC other than my.control4.com.

there is an application in development for the iPhone that give you the C4 GUI.

Damn. I read that you can telnet into the device and that it runs Linux. I'm a long time (15 years) Linux user' date=' so maybe I can create my own web interface <shrug>[/quote']

It is probably possible to *hack* a web interface to C4. However, C4 has not published any of the protocols that are used in the system so even if you could sniff around and figure out the communication protocols and file formats there is no guarantee that those APIs and protocols will not change in the future.

Certainly a double edged sword if I were to create my own interface. If I go ahead I'll do some packet captures with Wire Shark and see what I can expose.

This is a big oversight on the part of Control4 IMHO.

Paul

[RyanE]

This is a big oversight on the part of Control4 IMHO.

Paul

Disclaimer: This is all *MY OWN OPINION*, not Control4's, I'm not speaking for the company, and I hope you don't take offense by my response. None is intended.

Our main target market, the Custom-Installed CEDIA channel, is served best by our having a variety of UI options for our users, including the existing on-screen interface (free with the controller), inexpensive keypads (both 2/3/6-button and 10-button LCD keypad), and remotes, and a wide range of touchpanels (more expensive, although typically considerably cheaper than our competitors).

Although a web interface would certainly be useful to a small segment of our customer base, I would guess that most of our target customers (even if they had the option) would not use a web browser-based application to control their theater, or to choose music, manage audio zones, etc.

They may use an iPhone or iTouch, but that's really a 'style' issue, IMHO.

Our current target customers want an integrated solution, which we can give them best by custom products that do only what they do. This is IMHO one of the reasons why our touchscreens are not general-purpose devices (i.e. they don't have web browsers on them -- they ONLY control the system). If they did more than the UI, it's more of a burden for dealers to support.

I would argue that you're not the typical target customer.

There's nothing technologically speaking keeping Control4 from developing such an interface, if it was decided that doing so would be best for Control4. For Control4, it's a matter of priorities. Unfortunately, in my opinion, creating a full-featured web interface on the controller would be a very time-consuming task for not much reward to the company's bottom line, which as a small and growing company, is very important.

RyanE

P.S. As I'm also not really the typical 'target customer' for Control4 (I'm a geek, as I suspect you are), I have personally created a CGI executable that runs on the HC300/HC500 controller and allows you to use a browser to set light levels, check variables, etc., but it's an unsupported tool from the company's perspective, is very incomplete and not really pretty, and has to be re-installed after every update, since it's not included in an upgrade.

P.S. #2 -- Your Wireshark captures on the UI interactions within the system will find that the touchscreens and ethernet LCD Keypad communicate with the controller over a fairly straightforward SOAP interface in clear text. Very hackable, although there is no guarantee that it will continue to be as hackable in the future.

[paulmon]

This is a big oversight on the part of Control4 IMHO.

Paul

There's nothing technologically speaking keeping Control4 from developing such an interface' date=' if it was decided that doing so would be best for Control4. For Control4, it's a matter of priorities. Unfortunately, in my opinion, creating a full-featured web interface on the controller would be a very time-consuming task for not much reward to the company's bottom line, which as a small and growing company, is very important.

RyanE

P.S. As I'm also not really the typical 'target customer' for Control4 (I'm a geek, as I suspect you are), I have personally created a CGI executable that runs on the HC300/HC500 controller and allows you to use a browser to set light levels, check variables, etc., but it's an unsupported tool from the company's perspective, is very incomplete and not really pretty, and has to be re-installed after every update, since it's not included in an upgrade.

P.S. #2 -- Your Wireshark captures on the UI interactions within the system will find that the touchscreens and ethernet LCD Keypad communicate with the controller over a fairly straightforward SOAP interface in clear text. Very hackable, although there is no guarantee that it will continue to be as hackable in the future.[/quote']

Ryan, not sure I agree that a web interface would appeal to a limited set of people. I suspect, and this is just my opinion, that Control 4 doesn't offer a web interface since it could potentially take business away from Control 4's touch screens etc.

Obviously if the Control 4 interface was presented via a web page, it would mean that web pads, UMPC, blackberry, iPhone, and all manner of touch screen computers could be used as a control device. Heck, rumor is that Asus is about to release a touch screen version of the EeePC as a tablet for ~$600, that makes one think long and hard about the pricing of C4's 10" touch screen. I could see why this wouldn't sit well with the Control 4 business model where the controller isn't the expensive piece but the screens etc are.

I'd love to be able to use my new Blackberry Bold around the house to control media from the Control 4 device in place of a remote control, since the BBerry is always on my hip.

As for wireshark and sniffing, I figured it would be a SOAP interface, I guess the worry with SOAP is that C4 could easily put the API over SSL in a future release and lock me out. I guess I'll just have to buy one and see.

Your CGI sounds interesting, and updating after every upgrade isn't a big deal.

Does Control 4 open their API to partners? I don't mean installers but other companies that integrate their product with Control 4.

Thanks for the information Ryan!

Paul

[RyanE]

Ryan, not sure I agree that a web interface would appeal to a limited set of people. I suspect, and this is just my opinion, that Control 4 doesn't offer a web interface since it could potentially take business away from Control 4's touch screens etc.

Paul

While I agree that this is likely a *part* of why there is no web interface, I don't agree that it's the main reason, or even a big reason. Honestly, the majority of our dealers want the simplest solution possible to sell to their customers, which is not a web tablet. They don't want support calls when the web tablet won't go to 'Joe's house of widgets'. They don't want customers infecting their control gear with a virus and then having to support it. A Control4 touchscreen talks to the controller, and doesn't have many things that can go wrong.

From a dealers' perspective, they want to be able to sell a Control4 system, get in, get it installed, get out, and get paid. The more options for the end user to screw up, the less profit they make.

Does Control 4 open their API to partners? I don't mean installers but other companies that integrate their product with Control 4.

Paul

Certainly. Control4 has a partner program, with a large range of options, although this is not the place where we typically discuss it.

RyanE

[katsnelson]

I very much enjoyed reading this discussion. Paint me as another geek who would have really liked to have a more open Control4 set of products. I do understand what the installers want but there is that other segment of the market (maybe not large enough) that is looking for more than what a typical installer can provide. For example, I am renovating a house we just bought and I am pulling both speaker wire and Cat5e through the house. I may get an installer at some time in the future but for now I woudl have liked to get something as simple as wiring diarams so that I woudl know where to pull the wires and which ones. Control4 web site does nto help at all. I think it targets a house husband (not to offend better sex :-) ). I think a very simple explanation that was provided in this thread would have gone a long way to make peopel feel better abotu Control4 product line.

In my professional life I am responsible for Product Management for a major software so I understand target market, channel enablement etc. very well. I strugle with these issues every day. I think software industry is far ahead of consumer electronics in its thinking. Today's consumer wants to be an educated consumer yet CE industry tries desperately to hold on to the notion of "only the well trained technicians deserve access to information". In my humble oppinion, this is a very outdated model that is actually hampering expantion of the market. Doctors used to hate it when patients came for their appointments armed with information from WebMD.com. Most of these same doctors now think that these "educated" patients are easier to treat. And those that don't ... well they are nto in touch wiht today's reality. I think CE industry is out of touch with many of today's consumers. Installers will not loose business if they have educated customers. As a matter of fact, I am pretty sure that what is holding houme automation industry back is this mistique and aura of complexity that home automation companies have created.

[wappinghigh]

I would REALLY love a web interface.

...or an app that runs on a MAC.

I have Sonos networked and "controlled" with 4 MAC's and and an iphone running "zones" as well as 3 sonos handheld controllers.

You can't have too many "controllers" IMHO..the more the better. Be they proprietry, Third party, web based or actual programs....the more the better...I'd have one wired into a pair of glasses or even straight into my head if I had half a chance!

But seriously web based or "software" controllers would be great!