Certification & training program for "highly-interested" C4 end users

[BriPink]

I don't want to just program my system with Composer. I want to add and delete hardware (which happens monthly here) and, on top of that, I really want to be able to _actually program_ my system using whatever API exists for the purpose (how does an MTS talk to an MC? Let my Mac use the same API!)

You're definitely right that such programming is not for your average guy. But I live in Silicon Valley, which is a pretty warped place. It's completely normal here to find people who understand the risks of tinkering and who aren't afraid to take on simple tasks like programming an HA system. There are lots of us here!

The other weird thing about Silicon Valley is that many here live in the open source culture, where the open development and extension of complex systems is completely routine. In fact, it's the engine that drives a lot of the development here. The closed Control4 culture seems so 80's.

[InnSolAV]

The 80's did bring about hackers, all of you super silicon guys in the open source world should make quick work of Control4 then. There are some brilliant and determined individuals that have already done just that. If you have the time and ability to do it then reverse engineer it.

For the DIY guys that wants cheap HA...X-10 is cheap and works. Yes any electrical disturbance will blow an outlet...so you'll keep a few on hand just in case. It is a great hobby and admittedly something quite rewarding. In the professional scheme of things, products should do as advertised and if not either the product was misleading or the installer misrepresented his/her abilities.

I have personally had to stitch myself up. Did it work....YES. Can I pass as a cosmetic surgeon...NO. Am I ok with the outcome...scar is good for stories.

How will your scar be perceived? Will your wife, friends and family look less at your TOY? Will it be the polished hot rod in the garage that gets out on weekends or will it be the primed chassis full of great intentions never fully realized?

Control4 is a Top 3 Automation product that offers its customers something none of the top 5 offer...Composer HE. Jason (jbs) is spot on. I know where you are coming from and it is a slippery slope as you can tell from many of the posts. You want the product to excel as do I. The question is "at what cost does C4 open the flood gates?" More and more users will slowly pry them open forcing Control4 to greatly increase its support staff thus increasing its pricing... Just as you come to the forum for solutions, someone paid a price for that knowledge whether it be earned in the trenches with bumps and bruises or by great financial investment.

I have had many a client come up with great ideas as to what they'd like their system to do, some have been achievable and others are on our wishlists. I even have a client that bought the SDK because he wasn't satisfied with his system, went to training, and eventually built his own Media Server (Zatabit) which Control4 has used as its backbone for Cedia and CES because it is the only stable server that pushes any/all meta data changes to Control4 navigators. It started off with RS-232 which became an IP driver in 1.3.2. Then he had to create a LUA driver to keep pace with C4's changes. All of this on his dime. Amazing part is he's developed something most all of us want at a better price and with more features than any other server out there and he still would rather I come over and make sure his system works correctly even with all his beta updates and changes because he wants to make sure his wife and kids can watch TV.

{He has more bumps and bruises than most of you can think of with Control4...he is one of the first pre-release complete Control4 automation clients, and he still digs his stuff}

Moral of the story: Composer HE is a one of a kind tool that no other major complete home automation system offers to its users. Feel fortunate because the other HA players aren't offering anything similar.

[neil12011]

right on sir. We've been on board since 1.2, and many a bruise we have recovered from.

[jdvet30]

For all the amazing things that Control4 can and will do - they will never achieve the market share that will eventually get the original owners/shareholders the financial gain/achievement they/we all desire in our lives. The "product" is too controlled - the end product presented by their "dealers" is too pathetic - and as a result their growth is and always will be quite limited. Perhaps this is by design - but I suspect that the owners and backers (VC's if they exist for this company) have lived within their paradigm for so long - they cannot see the exit that could lead them to a greater market share.

Consider that I purchased my system from a dealer that went bust before the install was complete. When I first notified C4 of the problems I was having with the install (prior to the dealer going bust) they did nothing the rectify the situation. The typical silicon valley (oh yeah - they are in Utah) upstart (yes those are their revenue levels) tech company would never allow their customer service to reach these lows. Then, when the dealer did go bust - basically I was told - you are SOL, but hey - I can give you the name of another dealer in the area you can pay to complete the job. So, I ran the name of another dealer off the corporate website past the local rep and he told me this guy was one of the best - but as it turns out - he is the best at sales - and especially sales to high end home builders. The guy was a total flake...

I did hook up with a reputable dealer that came in and did an amazing job fixing everything and giving me what I asked for (except for radio through my denon avr3808) - and I love my system. But I can tell you - I have a lot of tech experience - despite not being a "techie". I have a veterinary degree (7 years of college education)...digital medical records, digital xrays, seven servers running my 85 staff practice, a vpn tunnel directing data to my home (that lacks a fixed ip - go figure - that uverse for you - at least it is 18mb/s) for backup of the business....my point here is that most people get frustrated way before me and never get their system to where they know it can be. And, I would add - what a pain - I am basically figuring out how to control my irrigation, garage doors, ip cameras...on my own.

Control4 has not grown enough for other companies to develop integrate-able products - and for being a technology company - they have one of the most useless websites I have ever visited from the perspective of a consumer. The consumer cannot visit their website and ever realize the potential or adaptability of their system. If I was a Control4 dealer - I would create a functional website and then sell the content back to them. The New York Times did a better job in one paragraph identifying a great feature for parents of teenagers than the C4 website has ever done.

All that said - I do love my system - as does my wife and our 4 kids.

I know C4 monitors these boards - I have no design on effecting change there - I prefer to effect change in companies with billion dollar market capitalization, such as IDEXX, Colgate Palmolive and Procter & Gamble - all companies that I have effected change in as an end user - but then again - these companies listen to their customers!

Regarding dealers being the ultimate in control - once the end user is allowed to tinker and mess things up - it only creates more work (that equals dollars) for the dealers. I do not mean to offend any dealers but I do recommend all you dealers as well as the owners of C4 read the following ebook (available for free if you have a Kindle2).

World Wide Rave - by David Meerman Scott (and no- I don't know this guy) - He addresses how to market your business and why putting all your information out on the web for free will lead to greater growth than the way C4 is run now. Does C4 think the average person really wants to know how to program their system? Seriously - the average person doesn't even know a system exists that can be programmed! But hey - maybe exponential growth isn't part of the business plan.

Just my two cents - thanks to all of you that post on the boards - I have learned a ton from these boards and appreciate how candid the most knowledgeable posters are.

[waynechi]

This is the classic C4 conundrum.

They want to play more to the masses than their old school competitors. They want to be relevant to smaller buyers who may just want C4 as a mega remote control for one TV. They want(ed) to have more of that IP-based, open source vibe about them (though most have caught up on that front)

At the same time, they don't want to alienate the classic dealer network, which follows the same model as all those old school guys. Price competition with Prosumer dealers? DIY? It will alienate that traditional dealer network that is the bread and butter of their business.

All this said...to the original point of the thread, I think that if C4 offered a mini-course to end users, only a select few users would take it. It would have to be fairly expensive ($1000+) to make it worth C4's time to do. Not a lot of people would take it. They might have to pay full list price for hardware (unlike a dealer). If those people were like me (otherwise busy people with the disposable income to pay up but like to tinker with their own system) they wouldn't have time to play part-time dealer.

[dgaulin]

I have never posted to this board before, but I felt this particular subject needed my opinion. I agree that there needs to be some type of compromise for skilled end-users. I am one who has not pulled the trigger on control4 products because of the inflexibility of my local control4 dealer to recognize that I am a skilled prosumer. I am a certified electrician and have installed a home automation lighting system in my home along with a Russound cav6.6 RESNET system. I did all of the programming for the cav6.6 myself. My beef isn't that I am pretending to know everything that a control4 dealer would know, but the fact that he is gouging me for a service that I could manage myself. I was interested in starting with the HC-300 and was going to pay full retail $700. That part didn't bother me. What turned me off was that the dealer was going to charge me $100/hr installation and programming for the unit starting from the time he left his shop! (I live an hour away from him.) I was astonished, particularly since I only charge $50 for my electical service business. As it was, he wasn't too happy with the fact that I was going to run my own RGB5 and was using my own rca plugs! My thought is if c4 wants to control the distribution to legitimate dealers only, they need to persuade delaers to be a bit more flexible.

[thecodeman]

There's always another dealer who's more than willing to pick up your business if you find you're not happy.

[dgaulin]

Are you talking about "remote programming"?

[neil12011]

There's always another dealer who's more than willing to pick up your business if you find you're not happy.

agreed, also, I have on occasion shown customers how to do their own programming. I will usually tackle the more complex stuff that they may not feel comfortable with, but I find they get alot more satisfaction out of the system by being able to do it themselves. dgaulin, with Composer HE you can do anything a dealer can do with the exception of using "loops", which to date I have not used much anyway. The only real difference would be the setup of the equipment in composer itself, I have often logged in remotely to make the connections for a component a customer installed himself. I think shopping around for a dealer that shares your mindset can help alot.