superikey Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 GreetingsI am new to this forum and wanted to thank everyone in advanced for your contributions and responses. I like to see when fans a product, platform or soultion come together to share ideas and help each other with installations and offer advice.I am working on an installation for a large NYC Home. The construction is all brand new so running cables is not an issue. The home is 4 floors including the basement. Basement i about 2500 SF, First Floor is about 2000 SF and a simple layout including a center hall entrance, a living room, dining room, kitchen, breakfast room, and a Den. Second Floor is also about 2000 SF and half the floor is the Master Suite, the other half is 2 Additional Bedrooms. Third Floor is about 1500 SF and has 3 More Bedrooms. All in All its about an 8000SF Home including the basement.The house is a luxury home very well constructed of Steel Beams, Steel Frame, Steel Studs and Steel Joists.We are looking at Control4 for Lighting, Audio/Speakers, Motorized Shades, To Manage Cameras, Manage TV/Video and Integrate with the Alarm/Security System.The main focus on this post is lighting. Since this is a luxury home, there is an interior decorator who is asking that we eliminate switch banks from areas like the Dining room, Living room, Den, Kitchen, etc, each of which will otherwise have Banks of 5-6 switches each. The advice I am getting is to centrally locate clusters of switches in a closet or hidden area and place either Touch screens or Six Button Keypads for a cleaner look, and to be able to control more than just lights. While I think this is a good idea and it seems workable, I am concerned about placing too many Zigbee switches in a single cluster and wanted to know what the best practice is with respect to doing it this way. Note that there are 30 or so switches on the First Floor alone that need to be hidden away. It would even be better if I could place all the switches in the basement and create a single area, but this is probably an even bigger problem when it comes to RF/Zigbee. Thanks in advance for your comments, ideas and suggestions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DHD MATT Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Control4 has dealer forums which may prove more useful for this type of question. They also offer system design services which could be beneficial if you've never deployed a large system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ichbinbose Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 The advice I am getting is to centrally locate clusters of switches in a closet or hidden area and place either Touch screens or Six Button Keypads for a cleaner look, and to be able to control more than just lights. While I think this is a good idea and it seems workable, I am concerned about placing too many Zigbee switches in a single cluster and wanted to know what the best practice is with respect to doing it this way. Note that there are 30 or so switches on the First Floor alone that need to be hidden away. It would even be better if I could place all the switches in the basement and create a single area, but this is probably an even bigger problem when it comes to RF/Zigbee. Thanks in advance for your comments, ideas and suggestions.placing the dimmers in closets near each area, on each floor is a good idea for a couple of reasons. First, it does allow for a cleaner look in each room as it only has one keypad or touchscreen as you walk in.Second, in the event that the controller goes down, then you can still easily control the lights vs. them being in the basement and you having to go downstairs to access them.Control4 does say to keep clusters to 5-10 nodes in a single location. Also remember spreading out the nodes around the house will help the zigbee mesh, where as putting all of the dimmers in the basement will not help the mesh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecodeman Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Just don't do it like this.https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_vZeyc3tuEaM/TXk2Zmc3DrI/AAAAAAAAAhg/UaeBrmicASM/s800/2010-11-02_19-13-20_310.jpg*edit* In case you're wondering what's on the tape, it's a label for the switch handwritten in Spanish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tebery Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Just don't do it like this.https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_vZeyc3tuEaM/TXk2Zmc3DrI/AAAAAAAAAhg/UaeBrmicASM/s800/2010-11-02_19-13-20_310.jpg*edit* In case you're wondering what's on the tape, it's a label for the switch handwritten in Spanish.I think one of those switches with a question mark controls a light in my house. It sometimes turns off for no reason. Now I know! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILoveC4 Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Just don't do it like this.https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_vZeyc3tuEaM/TXk2Zmc3DrI/AAAAAAAAAhg/UaeBrmicASM/s800/2010-11-02_19-13-20_310.jpg*edit* In case you're wondering what's on the tape, it's a label for the switch handwritten in Spanish.That switch with the question mark cracks me up. Man, some of those switches are DIRTY! For switches that are centrally located and thus rarely used I wonder how they got so dirty... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecodeman Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 There are two other locations in this same house like that. One is in an a/c closet nearly behind the unit and the other in a closet near the ceiling. Not all switches are on C4 so if you want to turn on a light there...well...you have to get out a ladder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superikey Posted May 17, 2011 Author Share Posted May 17, 2011 GuysWhen you say don't do what is in the picture, are you reffering the amount of switches in the cluster, or are you reffering to the fact that they are all labeled with tape and messy? Is this a particular installation that is having problems? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superikey Posted May 17, 2011 Author Share Posted May 17, 2011 And PSThe main areas of clusters will be for the first floor. We will still have keypads and also HC200's throughout the floor to act as zigbee repeaters. On the 2nd and 3rd floors, c4 dimmers will remain local in each bedroom as their aren't too many anyhow. Any thoughts?question: do the 2/3/6 button keypads act as zigbee repeaters? also they can be powered by cat5e and poe, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecodeman Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 GuysWhen you say don't do what is in the picture, are you reffering the amount of switches in the cluster, or are you reffering to the fact that they are all labeled with tape and messy? Is this a particular installation that is having problems?My issue with these:1) Terrible location. If the system is down for whatever reason, it's not possible to safely get to the lights to control the loads manually.2) Not all loads are on Control4, so it defeats the purpose of being "hidden" if you have to go there every time to turn something on or off.3) Yes, it looks terrible.The other issue is all these dimmers crammed in together gets pretty toasty, and they have to be de-rated from 1000w each in this configuration (3+ gang) to only 600w each, so you need to be mindful of the loads.Performance-wise, it's not so much an issue. It can be designed around - different zigbee channels, servers, ZAPs, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecodeman Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 question: do the 2/3/6 button keypads act as zigbee repeaters? also they can be powered by cat5e and poe, right?Yes, keypads act as zigbee repeaters. They can also be powered by low voltage with a 36v power supply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godzilla Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 probably would be wise to have back-up genset or battery backup............for power failures Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundcr Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 I am building a new house with also a lot of light zones (over 100) too and we went the way to combine Control4 with Litetouch. In this way you can have a clean wall with only low voltage keypads and all the lightning part is hardwired. We should power up the system in about 3 months. So far I can't say if it works but I had the same thoughts and than Litetouch became a partner of C4 and I switched to this hybrid solution. It is a little bit more expensive than just using C4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superikey Posted May 18, 2011 Author Share Posted May 18, 2011 soundcrtell me more about lighttouch. how is it priced? where can i obtain pricing on available offerings, etc?and are you using the lighttouch keypads, or just the processor/dimmer modules, and then controlling everything from c4?thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSquared Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 As a homeowner, I took an additional step in the wiring involving 3 loads: exterior receptacle, exterior lights, hallway. The exterior switches are located in the closet and programmed for the night. They are rarely operated manually.The 6 button (by the front door) and a dimmer in the hallway are set up as a 3-way. However, the 3-way hall light is physically wired so that it can be set up as a standard 3-way switch with some changes in the electrical box in the closet (the closet box is a junction box). I took this precaution in case I end up removing C4 for whatever reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superikey Posted May 18, 2011 Author Share Posted May 18, 2011 CSquaredMind sending me a diagram of what you did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSquared Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 I don't have a diagram and have to rethink how I did it, which I can't do now.As far as extra wires, the main thing in most electrical codes is that the ends are enclosed in a junction box that is accessible. You do need to watch the box fill rules. I use large volume electrical boxes in all switch locations. The bigger box also makes for easier dimmer/C4 swtich installations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickey Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 I know this is a C4 forum but since this is a luxury home why wouldn't you consider Lutron Homeworks for lighting and integrate it into C4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superikey Posted May 19, 2011 Author Share Posted May 19, 2011 mickeymy understanding is lutron homeworks is easily 2 to 3 times the price and much more difficult to service and configure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSquared Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 superikey: I think I know what I did. There are a few ways to wire for a 3 way switch, but I prefer feeder>1st switch>2nd switch > load. The feeder comes into a junction box in a closet; 2 - 3 wire cables are run to the first switch; 1 - 3 wire cable to the second switch. When configurated as a regular 3-way switch one of the 3-wires from the 1st switch and the 3-wire to the 2nd are connected and basically just run through the junction box. When configured for control4 with a keypad and a dimmer you cap off one of the 3 wires to the 1st switch (now keypad location) and use the other one as a 2-wire for power. Same with the 3-wire going to the 2nd switch, you only use 2 to the dimmer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundcr Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 checkout there website www.littouch.com. They also list the dealers in your area. It should be a C4 dealer who also does Litetouch. I am in Costa Rica and my dealer originally just did Litetouch and I convinced him to do also C4 to get the job...:-). he was doing before AMX which was to expensive and I like the concept of C4. I looked also into Creston but I found it also too expensive. Probably with AMX and Creston you can basically do what ever you dream from one brand but especially there TS are very expensive.I am using LTs keypads (I take the Metropolitian with nine buttons and led) which was also a big decision point since they are more stylish. They have a new one out beginning of next year (Echo) which I like too and has 10 buttons or 5 double buttons).So the whole lightning part is Litetouch. The lightning part is about 25% more expensive I would estimate than going with Control4. I like the new TS from Control4 with Intercom function. So I will have 10 of them in the house. The only problem is the doorstation since Control4 has no solution so far. I am now planning to take one from Mobitox which is basically a VoIP phone with camera and integrate the video in Control4 (IP on TS) and the audio running to any phones. I hope someone will come up with a driver sometime to integrate also the audio into C4. I probaly will also use their cameras even they are on the high end site from the price Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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