Is traveler wire needed for 3-way switching (new constr, non-retrofit)

[jbs]

I read some discussion here: http://www.c4forums.com/viewtopic.php?id=240 about retrofitting C4 into a circuit wired for 3-way switches, and that makes sense to me.

However, I'm planning on C4 for a new construction home. I got into a discussion with someone about this today who said that even for a non-retrofit situation C4 calls for a traveler of some sort to go between the switch/dimmer and whatever keypad I want to use.

I'm pretty certain this could not be the case because all a "wireless" controller/keypad should require is line voltage from any source to send out a Zigbee signal to control that switch. I'm not planning on wiring anything in my house as a 3-way switch -- everything will be a basic one-way switch with the other switching locations handled by keypad.

If that's the case, is there any reason why there would need to be a traveler from any switch in the house? Or do I just need to provide power to any keypad I want? Obviously one could take the argument above to an absurd extreme -- if I want to use a keypad to turn out all the lights in my house it would be silly to think I'd run 50 travelers back to the keypad. But as I see it even one would be unnecessary . . .

Thanks for any input!

--Jason

[danlevine]

It is not necessary to have traveler wire installed. In the wiring diagrams it does show that you could use the Blue lead off of a dimmer to power the keypad on the other end, which can be shutoff by the Airgap. We barely ever use this type of configuration.

You have it right on the money on how to do it, basically a keypad needs Line Voltage hot all the time and a Dimmer/Switch which controls a load just make sure it has a neutral in the box.

If you are in the new build stage you may want to consider putting a 3/6 button keypad in each room and put the dimmers/switches in the closet of that room so the walls look very clean with just a keypad and not a million switches.

Dan

[jbs]

Dan-

Thanks so much for the info. I'd initially planned on doing exactly that, running all the switches to concealed locations and just programming keypads for exactly the reason you stated, the terrific look of never having a double-gang switch anywhere.

I was somewhat talked out of it based on the fact that there can be hiccups in the system and lag time for keypad operation, and that having the hard-wired switches handy means even if the HTC crashes I can still work the lights.

Have you (or others) set up new construction this way, essentially operating a lighting system solely by keypad, and how have they worked out?

--Jason

[RyanE]

jbs,

While a well-architected system can be basically hiccup-free (I have not had any wireless Zigbee issues at my house, with about 50 dimmers), even if I could change the location of my dimmers to hide some in a closet easily, I wouldn't do it.

I also use POE devices wherever possible, instead of the Wi-Fi, because a wire always beats wireless when it's available.

No matter how well-behaved the system is, it's still communicating over wireless (Zigbee), which can be jammed or disrupted by a badly behaving 2.4GHz device such as a 2.4Ghz phone or baby monitor..., and as you mention, if your controller were to fail (lightning, power surge, wayward VP shotgun blast, etc.), you may have to remember where your dimmers are physically located to get some lights up and going.

Now that I think about it, I would likely not hesitate in hiding dimmers in a (moderately well-ventilated) closet for less-used lights (like my upper/lower kitchen cabinet lighting, outdoor accent lighting, etc.), but not for the 'main' lights.

RyanE

[Kirill]

What are you going to do when selling the house ? Most codes require for one switch at each side of stairwell\corridor - without travel wire - you'll have to use C4 - and I don't know what inspector will say to it.

[R_Willis]

I'd consider wiring the house in a more normal fashion, then add the C4 stuff in.

What if Control4 tanks and goes aways.... You have a house setup for C4 and possible other solutions to replace it might not be able to retrofit in the same circumstances.

Just my .02 cents...

[RyanE]

I also would recommend standard 3-way wiring with the traveller wire, which just will not be used when the Control4 solution goes in.

RyanE

[Kirill]

I also would recommend standard 3-way wiring with the traveller wire, which just will not be used when the Control4 solution goes in.

May not fly with building inspector - I believe my electrical code says - no "unused" wires in the box.

[RyanE]

What section of the code says no unused wires?

Disclaimer: I'm not an electrician, but I have completely (high and low voltage) wired my last two homes.

What quick research I've seen on the web (Mike Holt, an NEC (National Electric Code) Consultant, has an extensive website, for example) says that it's not an issue.

See: http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarchive/NECQ-HTML/HTML/NEC-Questions-016~20041007.php

Q11. I have a wall switch that is no longer needed. I would like to remove the switch, cap the wires, and replace the wall switch plate with a blank plate. Is this okay or must I remove the abandoned wires?

A11. The NEC does not require the removal of abandoned power and lighting conductors, just abandoned low voltage and limited wiring. It would be a good idea to disconnect the unused wires from their source of power, but this is not a Code requirement.

Also: http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarchive/NECQ-HTML/HTML/March-NEC-Questions~20040115.htm

It also appears that the section you're quoting is actually for low-voltage wiring, typically is applied against raised floors and drop ceilings like in large commercial installations, not typically 'fixed' wiring, and has a specific 'labelled for future use' escape clause, which you could certainly use in the case of unused traveller wiring.

Of course, your local electric code will apply and your AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction -- generally your local inspector) has all power to allow or not allow things, but if he/she has a problem, you could very easily explain that they're being left in case the dimmers are ever removed and replaced with traditional 3-way wiring, they'll typically have no problem with that.

RyanE

[C4 4 Me]

Having just built a new home and then setup C4, I will give you a few tips that will make things easier on you:

1 - You should do standard wiring for your 3 way switches, just make sure that the electrician sticks with the same method throughout your home with where in the circuit the switches and light are placed. That will make it easier to figure out what you are doing when you put in or service the C4 switches/dimmers/keypads.

2 - Do not allow any switch leg wiring.

3 - Have each bedroom and bathroom placed on their own circuits. Also run separate circuits to where you will have media centers.

4 - If you are putting in outlets for Christmas lights in your eaves, make sure that they split the load between 2 circuits. Many electricians only use a single circuit and it blows the fuse every time.

5 - Go around the home and figure out where you will be putting Holiday lighting and decorations that need power. Examples are a switched outlet for where you will have a tree, a switched outlet at the bottom of the stairs if you want to put lights on the banister during the holidays, switched outlets on the porch and deck for any lighting (both sides of the door if you might have things on both sides). Put the switches for these and the eave outlets in the hall closet if they will only be used during the holidays or special occasions.

6 - Choose a spot for a wiring closet and run a couple of dedicated circuits for power to that closet. Consider putting a fresh air vent into the closet like you would for a utility room with water heaters.

7 - Run a wire chase conduit from the wiring closet to each floor of the home. I have a 2 story home with a basement. The wire closet is in the basement next to the utility room. I ran a chase to the attic as well as the coat closet on the main floor. When putting in the sound system, we had an issue with a couple of the wires and end up using both chases. Also run a chase from the wiring closet to any media center areas. They do not have to be home runs (you can run a chase to the attic and then from the attic down the wall to the media center), but it is really easy to do now, and very painful later.

8 - Put in stair tread lights switched by a solar sensor placed on an exterior wall with Southern/Western exposure. You will thank me later.

[RyanE]

Excellent advice, C4 4 Me.

That's almost exactly how I wired my house 7 years ago, from the dual eaves circuits / window Christmas lights to the wire conduit from the basement to the attic.

Of course, each bedroom lighting doesn't have it's own circuit in my house, as the kids bedrooms only have a few lights each, but not bad advice nonetheless.

Although the Control4 dimmers (not switches, mind you) support switch leg wiring, it's always better to not use it, as it limits the amount of dimming.

I would also add that on the same circuit that you do the stair tread lights, go ahead and put in night lights in the bathrooms that come on with the stair tread lights (solar sensor) circuit. I have that in my kids' bathroom, it's nice.

RyanE

[Kirill]

What section of the code says no unused wires?

I heard it from a friend who is electrician, so may be your information is more up to date.

[RyanE]

I was just researching on-line, since I'm not an electrician. It's pretty common even for electricians and inspectors to have incorrect information since the NEC is so complex.

That's why it's so important up front to make sure your inspector knows exactly what you're going to be doing, and is OK with it. When I initially wired my house, I had low-voltage wiring to all my dimmer locations. My inspector had heard of this, and was not surprised when he did the inspection because of this.

Now they're all swapped out for Cotnrol4 dimmers...

RyanE

[slemay]

I took at class at CEDIA 2 years ago - it was on the NEC codes etc... and in commercial properties, you're NOT suppose to leave an wires unused in the walls etc... but in the home, that's ok... so don't know why - but that's what they taught.