Certification & training program for "highly-interested" C4 end users

[jbs]

This was something I initially posted in the CES 2008 thread, but given that it was a year ago and buried in another thread, I was hoping I could raise it again here as my favorite proposed solution to the frequent comments/questions/complaints about end user access to C4. As I've stated, I'm thrilled with the level of control I get from Composer HE, but I'd be hugely interested in planning a "geek vacation" around something like this. Original post was here http://www.c4forums.com/viewtopic.php?pid=8655#p8655.

. . . HOWEVER, I'd like to think there's a compromise, one that self-selects the people who are serious hobbyists, with some technical skills, a commitment to the product, and the real potential to become enthusiastic and vocal supporters of Control4. HERE'S WHAT I WOULD LOVE TO SEE C4 DO: Training and certification, for individuals. Basically, put me through the same training program they do for dealers. Charge me more since C4 is not going to expect to sell nearly as much to me as they'd sell through a dealer, and certify me so that they can be confident that I know everything I need to know to keep my system running, and potentially put some restrictions on sales to limit it to their own needs.

This would create a relatively small segment of users who would likely become much more avid purchasers and users of C4 products, and most importantly would be likely to innovate and push the envelope in ways that it's simply not economically viable for a dealer to do with someone else's system (i.e. I'm going to invest a lot more time in tweaking my own system than a dealer can afford to invest in my one system). I'd be excited about taking a week's vacation to Utah . . . would any of the other users out there find a sort of "tiered dealership" program attractive? Equally important, considering the small number of super-geeks (myself included) likely to be interested in this, would full-fledged dealers be bothered/alienated/annoyed by such a program?

--Jason

[K&J]

Here's my take on this jbs. Reminding all I do not speak for Control 4 or the other dealers (as if it wasn't already obvious).

I Personally like the idea. The individuals would have a genuine investment in the software besides purchasing the equipment.

I do know that there are some end users out there that have the capability to utilize Pro effectively.

I have stated in the past that some of my customers have that capability.

I would imagine that if Control 4 were to implement a program like that it would be a pretty pricey class.

Now, that being said. Let's play Devils Advocate.

Customer goes through Pro class and decides somewhere down the road to Give or to Resell the training they received to a friend or relative and they decide to do the same to another friend or relative.

Composer Pro Software is still under copyright. This is still not allowed.

I believe Pro is out there in more quantities and growing in rampant numbers than some of the dealers or Control 4 realize.

I will use yesterday as one example.

Pro Software 1.7.1.290 was for sale on ebay yesterday and when this person was shut down they stated that they had received the software from a friend and didn't know that it was Copyrighted.

This individual did not even have any Control 4 Equipment.

Myself and other dealers that I personally know have been trying to monitor the forums (this and others) to see the growth in which we saw end users with Pro for about a year now.

One of my customers even stated he could get Pro without an issue but has decided to take the "High Road".

I use a simple term as the Chain Letter or Spam example.

I receive several emails daily from friends sending jokes, notices etc..

In that email you see Several Other email addresses.

Look how many people have now received that Joke or Notice.

I Truly did not reply to this to start a debate or to offend anyone.

My Thanks to Dan (CytexOne) for providing this site for end users to come to for assistance.

Please just understand to the End Users this is a Hobby.

To the Dealers (Custom Integrators) this is our lively hood.

Have a Good Day..

[TheOracle]

Jason - I basically asked about the same thing in another thread. I would be very willing to pay for the training. My motivation is that since my dealer installed my equipment and did the basic configuration, I can see how I would really like to redo some things. Without that training and software, I am stuck with what I have for the most part. I can do some minor things but not a number of those I have on my wish list. If i had unlimited funds, I'd be more than happy to have the dealer complete the changes.

Sign me up. Utah is beautiful during the late spring and this would give me a chance to use more than 4-5 of my 20 days of vacation this year.

[thecodeman]

I think this whole thing could have been prevented with better dealers, if the bad apples were more responsive to the customers needs I could see where some of the clamoring for "pro" would disappear.

[jbs]

K&J-

No offense taken at all. I think you make very good points all, and I did in fact specifically ask if a program like this would cause concern for the dealers here. I think the gist of your concern is that someone going through such a program could potentially go "off the reservation" and provide unauthorized software or installation help to family, friends or strangers.

In fact, given the existence of Pro in forums such as ebay, that's something that can already happen. The big difference here is that I, as a "super-user", would have paid thousands of dollars to attend this training, conditional on (as I stated above in proposing this) limiting my use and purchases to personal use, for my system.

Above and beyond the fact that most people, myself included, take such commitments seriously, if I've signed and agreed to a license like that and know that violating it means I'm cut off from future access to the program, future versions of Composer, and the ability to purchase equipment, then I think you'd very likely have 100% compliance by those super-users.

Certainly you'd see a few super-users over time who'd want to apply to become dealers, and they could be considered just like any other dealer, but I don't think you're going to see anyone risk the loss of their thousands of dollars in training so that they can sell Composer to someone for $50.

Not only that, but from discussions here it sounds like some of the Pro circulation is from dealers, perhaps dealers who've been pressured or cajoled by a client into giving them a copy of Pro. If there were a legitimate pathway to a customer getting Pro it seems like that might also make it easier for dealers to answer a customer who's begging/pestering to get the software: "No problem, just sign up for this class and you can get your own legit license to the software for your use."

Would love to hear from some users whether they'd be interested in, and would pay for, something like this.

--Jason

[jbs]

I think this whole thing could have been prevented with better dealers, if the bad apples were more responsive to the customers needs I could see where some of the clamoring for "pro" would disappear.

I actually have a terrific dealer, no complaints there. But of the various systems in my house -- plumbing, electrical, HVAC, security . . . none is more central to how we live our lives than our home automation system is, and it's the one that I am currently unable to manage completely on my own. Don't get me wrong, I still use a plumber, I still use an electrician, and I'd still use my C4 dealer for a lot of things. But I'd be willing to pay for the ability to understand the system better, do some additional tweaking on my own, and handle some of the little stuff myself (outlets, dimmers, etc).

To me this is not at all trying to replace my dealer who did a fantastic job programming my system and without whom I'd never have the functionality I have. I'd even go so far as to limit the program I'm talking about to people who already own systems -- this should not be a tool for making C4 a DIY system because there are legitimate reasons for wanting it to be dealer-installed. But if you've already made that investment, and you are one of the "extreme users" who just want to get a bit further into the workings of their system, this would be a legitimate path for doing so.

Let me state that again, I would not envision this as something for a brand new user to Control4. I would envision this being for someone who already owns a complete system and wants to be able to maintain and adapt it over time. Protect both dealers' business opportunities AND the integrity/quality/consistency of the user experience by keeping the initial system setup and installation in the hands of experienced dealers. Once someone has their system, has become facile with Composer HE and still wants a bit more, make a program like this available to them.

The wrong approach would be to make this simply a DIY alternative to having a dealer install your system, and then you create headaches for C4, unhappy users if they turn out not to have a knack for this sort of thing, and none of the benefits of a core group of extreme tinkerers. As a smaller program for already-experienced and devoted fans, you eliminate those headaches, dramatically reduce any negative impact on dealers, and dramatically increase the positive impact for both C4 and dealers in the form of thousands or tens of thousands of hours of volunteer programming and development time devoted to this terrific product.

The internet is filled with examples of products which were improved in this way, by leveraging the enthusiasm and talent of users who have the personal motivation and incentive to spend absurd amounts of time on a particular task. While I can't match the skill or experience of a dealer with hundreds of installs under his belt, what I can do is devote more time to a specific challenge that's important to me than would be profitable for him to do. And then I'd delight in sharing the results of that with him and with others on a public forum. Everyone benefits.

--Jason

[thecodeman]

I know what you're saying. I just can see where the "bad dealer" has such an impact on the "need/desire" for Composer Pro so they can just "do it yourself". I personally had several "bad" dealer experiences before I settled on my current dealer.

[Automation1tmai]

I would be interested in attending this type of class.

[TheOracle]

Codeman - Since you and I live in the same general area, who is your dealer? I'd like to see if there is another I can use.

[GoGo Delicious]

. . .Customer goes through Pro class and decides somewhere down the road to Give or to Resell the training they received to a friend or relative and they decide to do the same to another friend or relative.

Composer Pro Software is still under copyright. This is still not allowed.

Besides the above what would prevent a "PROSUMER" from doing programming and consulting for others at rate less than what a dealer would charge?

The big difference here is that I, as a "super-user", would have paid thousands of dollars to attend this training, conditional on (as I stated above in proposing this) limiting my use and purchases to personal use, for my system.

I don't think the "conditional on limiting my use and purchases to personal use, for my system" is going to fly. If the software is already on ebay even though it is only for dealers whats going to stop a "Prosumer" from doing programming and consulting for others. Yes the Prosumer will sign a agreement that forbids them from doing programming and consulting but at the same time a C4 dealer also signs an agreement that states the Pro software is for dealers only but you see dealers giving it away or even selling it themselves.

I believe slow economic times, such as the ones we are in now, will motivate the Prosumer to try and earn a "little on the side" especially when their pay or hours have been cut or even worse, laid off. As I said before, I have known dealers that give away the Pro version of the software. Heck I had a copy of Pro up until 1.6. and the only reason I don't have 1.7 is the fact that I have no need for it. I have ran into a few dealers who are having financial problems who are now selling Pro at the same list price of a HC-500, $1500.00.

At CEDIA this past year (2008) I sat at a dinner table with a few HA dealers, 3 Control4 dealers, 3 Crestron dealers and 2 LifeWare dealers and this subject came up and the Control4 dealers were not shy about saying how they have sold the software to clients for the price of a HC-500 and they all pretty much said the same thing as to why. I will summarize here 1) Clients will pay that much to have the software to control their system 2) It's a quick sale and 3) If the client screws up their system and the dealer goes out to fix it, the dealer gets paid again. One dealer called this one "future work insurance" or something along those lines.

Now if dealers are doing this AND they have signed an agreement NOT to give away/sell the Pro software, I don't think you could stop a Prosumer from offering programming and consulting service for others at rate less than what a dealer would charge.

[jbs]

I don't think the "conditional on limiting my use and purchases to personal use, for my system" is going to fly. If the software is already on ebay even though it is only for dealers whats going to stop a "Prosumer" from doing programming and consulting for others. Yes the Prosumer will sign a agreement that forbids them from doing programming and consulting but at the same time a C4 dealer also signs an agreement that states the Pro software is for dealers only but you see dealers giving it away or even selling it themselves.

I believe slow economic times, such as the ones we are in now, will motivate the Prosumer to try and earn a "little on the side" especially when their pay or hours have been cut or even worse, laid off . . . Control4 dealers were not shy about saying how they have sold the software to clients for the price of a HC-500.

Now if dealers are doing this AND they have signed an agreement NOT to give away/sell the Pro software, I don't think you could stop a Prosumer from offering programming and consulting service for others at rate less than what a dealer would charge.

Few points here . . . first of all, it's quite simple for C4 to tell if a Prosumer is doing this kind of work. First of all, if someone is just maintaining their own system they're not likely to be buying 2 or 3 new controllers. They're not likely to be needing lots of new switches, dimmers, outlets, etc. They're going to be buying equipment for their own system, and a quick view of the program file could confirm that all the equipment is installed and being used there. I'dhappily make a copy of my program available to show that I was using the equipment I've purchased.

Second, why would a consumer want to go to someone who is not certified, can't buy equipment for them, can't remotely access their system and doesn't show up on the C4 website when they go to search? I think the far greater threat to dealers comes from someone who buys their copy of Pro on ebay or elsewhere and tries to pass themselves off as a dealer. For that matter, a prosumer who wanted to do this as a source of income would just apply and become a dealer. I don't see why there would be an incentive to try and sneak in, do the work of a dealer but pass oneself off as a prosumer. Again, why would a consumer choose some guy off the street with no backing, no warranty, no equipment to sell, no support, etc etc.

And finally, you point out that dealers themselves are selling the software or giving it away. Someone who wants to cheat is a lot more likely to go through a free or inexpensive path such as a dealer, ebay or bittoreent than they are to voluntarily pay, invest a week, sign an NDA and then risk their entire investment by violating the terms.

C4's probably not going to cut off a productive dealer for giving out Pro because they'd lose a lot of revenue. But a Prosumer would have already paid their fee. If they break the rules, they're out with a click of a button, so there's every incentive for the Prosumer to stick to the rules.

--Jason

[GoGo Delicious]

I don't think the "conditional on limiting my use and purchases to personal use' date=' for my system" is going to fly. If the software is already on ebay even though it is [b']only for dealers whats going to stop a "Prosumer" from doing programming and consulting for others. Yes the Prosumer will sign a agreement that forbids them from doing programming and consulting but at the same time a C4 dealer also signs an agreement that states the Pro software is for dealers only but you see dealers giving it away or even selling it themselves.

I believe slow economic times, such as the ones we are in now, will motivate the Prosumer to try and earn a "little on the side" especially when their pay or hours have been cut or even worse, laid off . . . Control4 dealers were not shy about saying how they have sold the software to clients for the price of a HC-500.

Now if dealers are doing this AND they have signed an agreement NOT to give away/sell the Pro software, I don't think you could stop a Prosumer from offering programming and consulting service for others at rate less than what a dealer would charge.

Few points here . . . first of all, it's quite simple for C4 to tell if a Prosumer is doing this kind of work. First of all, if someone is just maintaining their own system they're not likely to be buying 2 or 3 new controllers. They're not likely to be needing lots of new switches, dimmers, outlets, etc. They're going to be buying equipment for their own system, and a quick view of the program file could confirm that all the equipment is installed and being used there. I'dhappily make a copy of my program available to show that I was using the equipment I've purchased.

Second, why would a consumer want to go to someone who is not certified, can't buy equipment for them, can't remotely access their system and doesn't show up on the C4 website when they go to search? I think the far greater threat to dealers comes from someone who buys their copy of Pro on ebay or elsewhere and tries to pass themselves off as a dealer. For that matter, a prosumer who wanted to do this as a source of income would just apply and become a dealer. I don't see why there would be an incentive to try and sneak in, do the work of a dealer but pass oneself off as a prosumer. Again, why would a consumer choose some guy off the street with no backing, no warranty, no equipment to sell, no support, etc etc.

And finally, you point out that dealers themselves are selling the software or giving it away. Someone who wants to cheat is a lot more likely to go through a free or inexpensive path such as a dealer, ebay or bittoreent than they are to voluntarily pay, invest a week, sign an NDA and then risk their entire investment by violating the terms.

C4's probably not going to cut off a productive dealer for giving out Pro because they'd lose a lot of revenue. But a Prosumer would have already paid their fee. If they break the rules, they're out with a click of a button, so there's every incentive for the Prosumer to stick to the rules.

--Jason

I believed you missed the point. I never said anything about a Prosumer purchasing product but since you brought this up a Prosumer can now offer a Control4 systems for less than what a dealer can. How? eBay. A prosumer can purchase or have the client purchase the hardware off eBay and then program it for the client by passing the dealer 100%. Grant it there is no warrant on the items purchased on eBay BUT the prices are up to 50% off MSRP and some I have seen new. I saw a brand new 10.5" TP on eBay a few weeks ago for $1500 MSRP is about $2500. All I need to do is get the Prosumer out and add it/program it into my system and now I save a ton of $$$$ and I have cut out the dealer. As far a a warranty on the programming a Prosumer can give his new client a warranty on the programing because IF they have access to the software they have access to support of some sort.

Which brings up another point. Who is going to support the Prosumer if there is a issue with a driver, software, 3rd party hardware, etc? Will it be Control4 or a Dealer? Will Control4 have to invest in separate support division to support the Prosumer? If Control4 decides NOT to offer support at all but release it as an "As Is" solution what good is that if a Prosumer makes mistake and can not recover his program.

The original point I was trying to make was this. What's going to stop a Prosumer from starting a consulting business where he can program or re-program an existing system. Forget buying Control4 hardware, say I purchased a new receiver and Plasma instead of calling my dealer to add it to my system and paying him upwards of $75.00 per hour I can call a Prosumer who may charge me $25.00 per hour or even better a flat rate of say $50.00 to add both and offer a warranty on his programming.

You state

Someone who wants to cheat is a lot more likely to go through a free or inexpensive path such as a dealer, ebay or bittoreent than they are to voluntarily pay, invest a week, sign an NDA and then risk their entire investment by violating the terms.

That does not make sense. If am coming across dealers who are giving way/selling Composer Pro and they have signed all sorts of contracts and NDA's that I am sure forbids giving away or selling Pro, I am sure nothing a Prosumer signs will prevent the above from happening.

A dealer pays a MUCH higher investment in becoming a dealer then a Prosumer would in training & licensing/obtain the software from Control4. A dealer has a WHOLE lot more to lose if they get caught. A side from their investment, the dealer stands to lose their business, their clients, and FUTURE revenue. A Prosumer has a lot less to lose, just their initial training and investment, which is A LOT less then the dealer investment. Having a Prosumer sign NDA is not going to stop them from offering paid services just how it hasn't stopped dealers from selling/giving away Pro.

[jbs]

James-

In the interest of full disclosure for those not familiar with your postings here, and since I did ask for the views of users who might want to attend a class or C4 dealers for whom it might pose a problem, I want to clarify that you're not a C4 dealer or user, correct? I think you were a C4 dealer at one point but then very publicly on these boards decided to become a Crestron dealer. I say it not because you don't have every right to post, but I'd like to understand whether you're coming at it from a dealer or a user perspective, if in fact you are one or the other.

I'm not sure why you think that a prosumer would be able to undercut a dealer so dramatically. Is my time worth less than a dealer's time? I don't think we need to get into a pissing contest about how fabulously successful and wealthy all of us are :-) but let's assume for the moment that owners of high-end sophisticated home automation systems who willingly shell out several thousand dollars and take a week of their time to go learn how to push their systems further are probably not interested in then selling their services for $8.25 an hour just to undercut dealers.

You've not established how they would sell these secret services, nor how they would access people's systems since they would not have the remote login capabilities that dealers do.

Warranty-wise, my point was that someone buying equipment on ebay and hiring a stealth prosumer programmer from, presumably, the lot at the local Home Depot, would have no warranty on their equipment.

And again, none of what you're saying is anything that someone could not currently do with one of the pirated copies of Pro that you yourself have said are common.

And as I said, dealers are less likely to be cut off for the occasional violation of Pro license terms because they are a source of revenue and C4 would be unwise to kick a successful dealer out of the fold. A user like I'm describing is in this just by the grace of Control4, and there'd be no reason for C4 *not* to cut me off if I violated the terms.

Look, we all know what they say about someone winning an argument on the internet, so I don't see much point in arguing this further. You're on record not liking the idea and thinking that people are more likely to start unlicensed programming operations via this authorized and expensive program than with a $75 purchase on ebay. Understood. Thoughts from others?

--Jason

[ILoveC4]

I would pay for such a course, and the access to composer pro. I would do it in a heartbeat. Nothing is more frustrating than realizing since Control4 is hooked to your garage, you can have it automatically check at 11:00PM to see if the door is open, and close it ensure your kids don't leave the garage open all night, then realizing that it is going to cost you $150 to have the dealer do it.

There are simple things that I would love to tweak. I am sure I would get more satisfaction from my system if I could just do what I wanted, without getting nickel and dimed to death by a hungry dealer.

[GoGo Delicious]

Look, we all know what they say about someone winning an argument on the internet, so I don't see much point in arguing this further. You're on record not liking the idea and thinking that people are more likely to start unlicensed programming operations via this authorized and expensive program than with a $75 purchase on ebay. Understood. Thoughts from others?

Best point you have made so far. I happen to agree.

[BriPink]

It's an interesting idea. As an end user, I wouldn't be willing to spend thousands for this capability, but a few hundred is doable. For me, the big issue is time - I can't afford the time away from home to train on someone else's schedule. Give me an online course that I can cruise through at my own pace and I'll be happy. Heck; just sell me the software and I'll learn by trial and error! I'm positive I would break stuff, but I'm equally sure that my wife's reaction to an ill-programmed dimmer would keep me from screwing things up for too long.

Another thing that would be interesting to me is a developer program. I write software for a living, and it'd be great to be able to interact with my entire C4 system programatically from a computer on the local net. The kind of training necessary for this is probably a bit more involved that just connecting stuff via Composer, but heck, giant computer companies can manage developer programs online, so why not Control4?

[jbs]

It's an interesting idea. As an end user, I wouldn't be willing to spend thousands for this capability, but a few hundred is doable. For me, the big issue is time - I can't afford the time away from home to train on someone else's schedule. Give me an online course that I can cruise through at my own pace and I'll be happy. Heck; just sell me the software and I'll learn by trial and error!

Thanks for the input. To be clear, and I have no idea whether anyone from C4 will ever take an interest in the idea, this is intended to be something of a commitment on the part of users specifically to avoid the problem mentioned earlier and elsewhere that Pro in the hands of someone with no training opens up the distinct possibility of screwing up a system very badly, and ending up with a user pissed off an moaning on the internet.

I don't think giving Pro out to all of us without requiring some certification or training would be in Control4's interests, and obviously neither do they.

Hundreds of dollars would certainly not cover the costs of the training C4 would be providing. Dealers spend a lot of money on training and certification, if anything users in the category I'm proposing should spend at least that much since we're not going to be bringing in sales revenue. What we would bring in is innovation and programming talent, and the coll tricks that only come from devoting absurd amounts of time to a specific task.

--Jason

[lakecranberry]

I have been using control4 for almost 2 years in my home and adding peices here and there. I really like the capabilities of the system (current and planned) and I am an avid DIY proponent. I am a programmer during the day and enjoy tinkering with different technologies. I would be interested in participating in a program to obtain the pro version.

I have no interest in installing the system in others homes and I would think it would be pretty easy to identify a person who was doing this. My company sells software by the license and it is pretty easy for us to know if we sold them one copy and we get ten different people calling in for support, that they need to purchase additional licenses. If a comany purchses 1 license and they have 2 people using it, I am not going to lose any sleep, which is why we do not lock out software as some of our competition does (and they lose sales because of it).

If I were able to do a lot of the basic work myself, I would probably me MORElikely to purchase additional hardware through a dealer (warranty/returns) than some other source. I know that MOST of the features included in the pro version do not require much training to install and set up. I can install electrical switches my self and do not understand why something as basic as identifying a switch should require a call to a dealer. I would think a dealer would be happy to sell me a dimmer if all he had to do was deliver it. I agree that some things (i.e. setting up new controllers) may require more knowledge which would open up the door to the dealers to fix things that were set up incorrectly.

I understand that most (90%+) customers of Control4 are not DIY people, but I think there ought to be some mechanism in place to handle that small percentage that is and I would think that the goodwill that those avid users would generate (even subtracting those bad apples, which you would have anyway) would help to build the community.

JOHN

[tumult]

Hundreds of dollars would certainly not cover the costs of the training C4 would be providing.

--Jason

hmmmm. Has anyone heard what the dealer training actually consists of? From reading most of the posts on the forum and playing around with composer he, and from reading that pro is HE with the addition of adding and identifying devices, I don't believe that advanced users or highly interested end users need any training.

I've already seen my dealer add and identify devices (he told me to close my eyes so I didn't infringe the copyright, but I peeked;)). Not to take away anything from him or the other great dealers, but I don't get the impression that advanced users need training or certification to program with composer pro. Composer HE is relatively easy which happens to be their slogan---Everyday Easy:)

Not to hijack;), but what I really want and what we should all be advocating for is ACCESS TO THE DEALER FORUMS!!!!!!

tum

[ILoveC4]

Hundreds of dollars would certainly not cover the costs of the training C4 would be providing.

--Jason

hmmmm. Has anyone heard what the dealer training actually consists of? From reading most of the posts on the forum and playing around with composer he' date=' and from reading that pro is HE with the addition of adding and identifying devices, I don't believe that advanced users or highly interested end users need any training.

I've already seen my dealer add and identify devices (he told me to close my eyes so I didn't infringe the copyright, but I peeked;)). Not to take away anything from him or the other great dealers, but I don't get the impression that advanced users need training or certification to program with composer pro. Composer HE is relatively easy which happens to be their slogan---Everyday Easy:)

Not to hijack;), but what I really want and what we should all be advocating for is ACCESS TO THE DEALER FORUMS!!!!!!

tum[/quote']

I'm with you there. At least give us access to view them.

[BriPink]

Well said, John.

Jason, I have to question the underlying assumption that one of us DIY'ers would somehow hold Control4 responsible if we mess up our own system. I'm completely willing to assume the risk; having good backups and access to a forum like this is the only kind of safety valve I need.

One more thing: I'm sure that sales are down given the current economic climate - I can only think that Control4 would benefit economically by opening everything up! One way such an approach could fail, though, is if the dealers rebelled to their sudden loss of exclusivity and stopped carrying the product. This outcome seems likely given the level of support for exclusivity among the dealers in these forums.

Me? I'm completely happy buying hardware from my dealer and even buying the odd few hours of support. But I do want to be able to program my system!

[maxspivak]

+1 read-only access to dealer forums

+1 online course

+1 official access to Pro

C4 products started shipping on 4/29/05, almost four years ago (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=541813). At the time, it was a brand new product whose acceptance in the market was unknown. It made a lot of sense for C4 to limit access to Pro to authorized dealer to avoid bad publicity.

Fast-forward to now. C4 has done a fantastic job marketing, promoting, and delivering on product announced made in '04. It is now entrenched in the marketplace. It's high time to loosen the strings somewhat and allow access to passionate users who promote C4 to friends, coworkers, relatives, etc.

Just my $0.02 from one of the early C4 fans (see avs forum link. )

[wingzz]

count me in on wishing this was reality

[jbs]

Well said, John.

Jason, I have to question the underlying assumption that one of us DIY'ers would somehow hold Control4 responsible if we mess up our own system. I'm completely willing to assume the risk; having good backups and access to a forum like this is the only kind of safety valve I need.

One more thing: I'm sure that sales are down given the current economic climate - I can only think that Control4 would benefit economically by opening everything up! One way such an approach could fail, though, is if the dealers rebelled to their sudden loss of exclusivity and stopped carrying the product. This outcome seems likely given the level of support for exclusivity among the dealers in these forums.

Me? I'm completely happy buying hardware from my dealer and even buying the odd few hours of support. But I do want to be able to program my system!

Well, you already can *program* your system with Composer HE. We're talking about a very small set of additional features here, being able to add and remove equipment and edit drivers. But let's all remember that the vast majority of programming which Crestron would make you hire a dealer to do, C4 enables us to do ourselves. There is no Crestron HE as far as I know.

As to the assumption that a DIY'er would hold C4 responsible . . . I'm not saying that they'd try to financially hold C4 responsible, or demand C4 fix it. I'm saying that a non-technical user who thinks they're pretty skillful cause they can run Microsoft Office applications :-) (I've seen that on resumes) could, in a matter of minutes, render their system a mess. If they followed that up with a call to their dealer and paid to have it fixed, then everything would be fine. But the FACT is that SOME people would rather blame anyone but themselves. They'll go out and build a website such as:

http://sprintpcs-sucks.com/

http://www.sony-sucks.com/

http://www.paypalsucks.com/

and end up in a Google Search of a non-DIY customer who is researching where to spend his $50k Home Automation budget. By the way, all those sites above are real, all are people airing grievances about a company. All hurt the brand, and all the more so for Control4 which has a considerably less well-known brand than Sprint PCS, Sony or Paypal. Control4 wants to maintain a consistent level of user experience, as they should. It doesn't matter that they've been around 3 years, most people still haven't heard of them, and even Coca-Cola works hard to protect their brand and user experience, even though they've been around for more than 100 years.

Establishing tight standards and ensuring that people getting further into their own systems know what they're doing would let C4 gain the benefits of user innovation and contribution without the associated risk of a bad experience that some user blames on the equipment.

And I'm sorry, but Ijust don't think a person Googling for info on home automation is not going to know enough to distinguish between bad equipment and bad programming by a user.

--Jason

[jmk709]

What other systems are out there that allow the end user to create or add to their systems? I am in the process of building a house and would like to install an automation system. I had thought Control4 was for me but the more I learn the more I am turned off. I am finding out I cannot even add a new flat screen or piece of equipment on my own. If I upgrade my DVD player or even my upgrade my receiver I have to call the dealer to install new codes. That is messed up! The Control4 web sight states that the equipment is easy to install. I am finding that not so true!

From the Control4 HC300 Brochure:

The Control4® Home Controller HC-300 makes it easy for everyone to add intelligent

Easy to Setup and Use

• Control4 Easy Setup Program — Use interview-style wizard to guide through the

installation process.