To Control4 or not?

[thefred]

We are looking into have a distributed audio system installed in our house. It is an existing house so the wiring will need to be retrofitted. We have discussed the project with three companies and am trying to make some decisions. Initially, we had looked at the Russound system, which was nice and would do what we need, but required many keypads for control purposes. Then, we were directed toward Speakercraft, which has the same "limitation". I am trying to do as clean a project as I can (limited keypads and controllers) with two way communication to the controllers. I need a system that doesn't require an engineer to operate it. READ: I don't want complaints from my wife that it is too complicated! Then, I was introduced to Control4 which does lots more than just distributed audio (which I would like to expand in the future) and it appears that I can control this system from the navigators on the TV sets in the house and maybe a wired touchscreen in the kitchen.

I'm leaning towards Control4, but want to make sure I don't make a big (COSTLY!) mistake. These are the issues I'm hearing:

- reliability problems

- the company is too young and no one knows how long it will be around

- programming too difficult and won't be able to be completed to operate bug-free

- not an install and forget system-it will require on-site maintenance with software updates on at least a quarterly basis

- they are trying to be a baby Crestron and are no-where near as reliable

Mostly these comments have come from dealers that do not sell Control4, but some of them came from a Control4 dealer that had just returned $25,000 (at his cost) in defective equipment. He seem excited about the newer versions, but I just want to make sure his excitement is genuine and not just because I expressed interest in it. Apparently, there is a new version that just came out and he said it seemed more stable.

So, is there any truth to the issues I have raised? Do I have anything to worry about if I am using an experienced installation company? And, if I wasn't going to use Control4, what would be your next best bet?

Thanks!

[trippinbillies41]

We are looking into have a distributed audio system installed in our house. It is an existing house so the wiring will need to be retrofitted. We have discussed the project with three companies and am trying to make some decisions. Initially, we had looked at the Russound system, which was nice and would do what we need, but required many keypads for control purposes. Then, we were directed toward Speakercraft, which has the same "limitation". I am trying to do as clean a project as I can (limited keypads and controllers) with two way communication to the controllers. I need a system that doesn't require an engineer to operate it. READ: I don't want complaints from my wife that it is too complicated! Then, I was introduced to Control4 which does lots more than just distributed audio (which I would like to expand in the future) and it appears that I can control this system from the navigators on the TV sets in the house and maybe a wired touchscreen in the kitchen.

I'm leaning towards Control4, but want to make sure I don't make a big (COSTLY!) mistake. These are the issues I'm hearing:

- reliability problems

- the company is too young and no one knows how long it will be around

- programming too difficult and won't be able to be completed to operate bug-free

- not an install and forget system-it will require on-site maintenance with software updates on at least a quarterly basis

- they are trying to be a baby Crestron and are no-where near as reliable

Mostly these comments have come from dealers that do not sell Control4, but some of them came from a Control4 dealer that had just returned $25,000 (at his cost) in defective equipment. He seem excited about the newer versions, but I just want to make sure his excitement is genuine and not just because I expressed interest in it. Apparently, there is a new version that just came out and he said it seemed more stable.

So, is there any truth to the issues I have raised? Do I have anything to worry about if I am using an experienced installation company? And, if I wasn't going to use Control4, what would be your next best bet?

Thanks!

let's address your concerns one by one:

-Reliability problems: I haven't had any more defective units with Control4 than any other brand of electronics that I've dealt with/sold (I'm a dealer, just don't have the title under my name on here yet). As for the actual hardware reliability, I wouldn't worry. Control4 can offer advanced RMA's to their dealers, so on the off chance that your system has a defective piece, a new one can typically be at the dealer within a day or two.

-Control4 isn't an old company, but they're not young either. Looking at the advances they are making, the products they are coming out with, and the business model they have, I see them doing very well.

-The programming is not difficult AT ALL, especially if you're starting out with a distributed audio system. If it can't be programmed to operate bug free, find another dealer.

-On site maintenance: You really would only need updates if there is a glitch in your system that they found a fix for (pretty uncommon at this point), or if a new version of software has a major new feature that you want, such as rhapsody was with 1.6. A few things to note about this: minor updates can easily be done remotely by your dealer, and will most likely not need to be done quarterly. Major updates can be done remotely, but i tend to like to do them on-site just so I can show my customers all the new cool stuff the system will do. As for Control4 versus other brands in this aspect, if a new feature were to come out for Russound, you'd still need a firmware update, so it's kind of a moot point in that respect.

-Control4 most certainly is not trying to be a baby-crestron. They are tapping a vast gap in the market between companies such as russound/speakercraft/nuvo and automation companies like crestron/amx. control4 had their share of bugs at the begining, but are extremely reliable now. I have had my own personal system installed for about a year and a half now and have not had a single issue with it besides the time my dog chewed up the cat5 cable running to the processor... but that would have killed a crestron system too, haha.

I think it sounds like you're interested in the features Control4 has to offer, so I would put your worries to bed about reliability and go with it. If you have problems with your dealer and their programming abilities (again, very easy to program a distributed audio system...) then find a better dealer, which shouldn't be hard either.

[waynechi]

I agree with trippinbilies. It sounds like someone with a strong Crestron (or other "older" company) bias has been steering you. There really haven't been all that many reliability problems and the programming is pretty easy and a lot of customization can be done by the end user using HE.

The install-and-forget-it issue is an interesting angle. This flip side argument that I think is a C4 advantage is that software upgrades keep the system up to date and more flexible than something that starts aging as soon as its in your house. C4 could definitely be install-and-forget it if you chose to never upgrade your system, but people like myself see the upgrades as a positive. C4 is big enough at this point that its not going to go out of business, but may be sold to someone else in the next five years - its VC-owned so this is very likely. But keep in mind all of these companies are small - Crestron is only a $100M-$200M company and AMX is smaller than that. It wouldn't surprise me a bit if a Johnson Controls-type company at >$10B revenue came in one day and bought any one of these companies. The Crestron founder is getting up there in years, and AMX is owned by the Duchossois family which may always be interested in a sale.

That last comment is half right - the C4 value proposition is that it is not as infinitely customizable as Crestron, but it has 90% of the features that everyone wants in a nice interface. You can be more bleeding edge with Crestron, but that's not what everyone needs. Think of it like an iPod - the interface works and you dont need a lot of bells & whistles to do much else. Every year iPods can do more and more, so it pays sometimes to add features and upgrade, which is simple in C4. Let me add that at the same price point, the C4 remotes and touchpads are much nicer (in my view at least) on C4 than Crestron.

I went with C4 nearly 3 years ago knowing there was some risk with a new company, but also that C4 had a model which was ultimately going to be the way the rest of the world went. IP-based system built on Linux platform that does most of what the older technologies could do for less. Although the others have followed in this direction, I still think C4 does it best.

Let me give you one piece of perhaps C4-biased advice that you are ready picking up on - consider the source of your information. Old school, established dealers who grew up on Crestron/AMX live in a model where products are highly customizable, but this in turn drives a lot of "customization" and programming work for the dealer. Dealers are paid by the hour. Because these dealers are all good, experienced programmers they naturally think that the more "expert" hours that are behind your system the better it will be (a natural bias that most of us who take pride in our work tend to have). Part of the C4 proposition is it takes some of the customization away (e.g doesn't let you configure the screens any way you want but instead gives you one interface that just works). I am sure the $ per install are less for a C4 dealer than for a Crestron dealer - so many higher-end Crestron/AMX dealers are dismissive of C4 for that reason alone. But you as a buyer don't care about that - a more modern, flexible system that requires less dealer $$ than some of the old school platforms is a good thing, not a bad thing.

That said, your installer choice matters, so you should use this board and other sources to find a good one who is attentive and has done a lot of installs.

[thecodeman]

For what it's worth, my boss's system has been in place for over a year now with no single point of C4 equipment failure, on 1.3.2 with no upgrades. His plasma TV went out, but it's an industrial Pioneer model, go figure

[Ajbarrister]

I have had my system in place for a year and it has been GREAT. I started with just wanting audio out by my pool that was newly installed and it ended up being whole house audio and video. To answer your questions:

- reliability problems: Never had a prolem. Get a good Dealer. Interview them. Go see other projects and talk with their customers.

- the company is too young and no one knows how long it will be around: BS stable VC company that has a middle market nitch.

- programming too difficult and won't be able to be completed to operate bug-free Again BS great system and HE is wonderful.

- not an install and forget system-it will require on-site maintenance with software updates on at least a quarterly basis: Only if you want the updates. I only updated once because I wanted announcements and Rhapsody.

- they are trying to be a baby Crestron and are no-where near as reliable Again, Creston is way more expensive in the long run and constantly fails. Acutally a freind is a master Creston Programer and he recently signed up for C4 simply because it works.

Let me know if you need more info.

Tony.

[c44me]

you guys keep mentioning HE, but he clearly states:

"I need a system that doesn't require an engineer to operate it"

So I think he is trying to tell us he doesnt want to tinker with things. If thats not the case I hope he clarifies.

The bottom line is your system will be as good as your dealer and you doing a bit of homework. good luck!

[thecodeman]

Engineer to "operate it". My boss never does any programming, and he and his wife have no problem using the system.

[thefred]

Thanks for all the responses! I'm glad to hear so many positives because I really do think if this performs well, it wil be the best solution. As for HE, I haven't looked into it yet and althought I may tinker with it at some point (I had previosuly installed an X-10 system myself in my current house-what a nightmare of gremlins!), thecodeman is right in that the real issue is ease of operability for my better half.

I have two dealers that I am talking to. Neither one is a premier dealer, but both are listed on C4's site as a dealer. I guess you have to be listed to sell their stuff. The one that was originally a bit hesitant is an acquaintance. He said he knew he would see me in the community and didn't want to sell me something he thought I would be unhappy with or that might have problems but then changed course after they recevied the new version a week or so ago. The other dealer seems very on top of it and says they have 20 installs of the system. That does not sound like a lot to me, but my contractor (who is a good friend of mine) referred me to them and said that they do great work. The good thing about #2 is that they are a security system and networking company as well so they can put the whole thing together including my network. My thought is to talk to guy#2 and see if I can get some references to see what his customers have to say about his work.

[tumult]

I suggest not only talking to the clients that worked with dealer #2, but also ask if you can visit the clients' homes to see how things work and spend as much time as you have or they allow you at their house.

I absolutely love my system and my dealer, but, with flame suit on, do not think that your system will be perfect after its installed.

tum

[BriPink]

I have a Control4 system, but I have a mostly separate Sonos system for audio.

My bottom line: if you're just going to do a distributed audio setup and you don't care about the rest of what Control4 can do, I'd recommend getting a Sonos system instead. It's light years easier to set up because it doesn't require a dealer and it seamlessly sucks your iTunes library right off your computer. The wife-acceptance-factor of the Sonos system is quite a bit higher than that of the C4 system. And, did I mention that the iPhone controller for the Sonos is free?

[wappinghigh]

I want to support what BriPink said (if I may) and say that I use Sonos for Audio and I agree with everything that's said about Sonos. But I'll add that I haven't got C4 yet...I've been lurking on this forum (undecided like you) and waiting for the C4 iphone app: cause the iphone app for Sonos is a winner and totally changes how you use a multiroom audio system. So imagine what a similar app will do for C4!

Basically I have cut my teeth on all this ip/network related multiroom distribution system stuff by doing a large SONOS system instal myself. Yeh there are financial advantages in not using a "dealer" - but gee there were times when I wish I had a SONOS dealer to help on occasions. It wasn't ALL wonderful. It has taken a year or so to perfect.

As far as I can tell, the two systems are remarkable similar in their approach to multiroom audio: so If that is all you want you should definitely consider SONOS. But having seen and played with SONOS I want more! Wireless control of AV gear for a start! Not to mention everything else. For example. The SONOS forums have been crying out for an IR interface with SONOS for years...but it falls on deaf ears.

I reakon the ideal system is Sonos for Audio and C4 for everything else...bringing all the "control" onto an iphone interface. Then you have ONE controller for everything.

But BriPink. I'm interested in what you think here. It is a pitty you can't make changes to the C4 GUI to say allow a Sonos icon/link to appear in the place of the C4 "music" button. Or can you? What do you do to make the Sonos/C4 intergration as "Family" and "Wife" friendly as possible?

AB

[danlevine]

Control4 is awesome. We have built many large and many small systems with it. In fact we have probably taken out close to 10 Crestron / AMX systems and replaced them with Control4 to get rid of all of the problems the user was having. Some of our largest systems have been up for almost 2 years without ever going down.

Anyone who hates on C4 either doesn't know the technology behind it, or is just threatened by it because they sell Crestron / Amx / Elan / HAI / etc.

You will definitely not go wrong by using C4, however it is VERY important to choose a dealer who understands the product and more importantly networking. Control4's foundation to your system is the Network and if it's built poorly or incorrectly you will have unusual issues.

[thecodeman]

You will definitely not go wrong by using C4, however it is VERY important to choose a dealer who understands the product and more importantly networking. Control4's foundation to your system is the Network and if it's built poorly or incorrectly you will have unusual issues.

Quoted for truth.

[thefred]

I absolutely love my system and my dealer, but, with flame suit on, do not think that your system will be perfect after its installed.

tum

These are the kinds of things I want to be prepared for. Tell me what you mean by this. I have heard from you guys how good and reliable the system is, but I am also aware that nothing is perfect. Aside from the wrong installer, what are the potential negative issues?

[thecodeman]

I absolutely love my system and my dealer' date=' but, with flame suit on, do not think that your system will be perfect after its installed.

tum[/quote']

These are the kinds of things I want to be prepared for. Tell me what you mean by this. I have heard from you guys how good and reliable the system is, but I am also aware that nothing is perfect. Aside from the wrong installer, what are the potential negative issues?

You could have something that's simple happen that requires your dealer to fix, and they take forever to get back with you.

It takes a little tweaking after your install to cater it to your lifestyle.

[MetFan1]

I have,

HC-500

Mini-Touch Screen

SR-250 Remote

Card Access Contact Switch using both temperature qauges and door contacts

Outlet dimmers

Outlet switchs

3 Panasonic IP Security Cameras

3 button keypads

Light switches and dimmers

Card Access motion sensors

Ethernet speaker piont

10+ A/V Components

10+ IP Network Devices

Handy Lifestyle Features installed:

Weather Bug-Informs you of the weather

Traffic Cameras-Lets you see how the traffic is going to work

Rapsondy-If you live in the USA(I live in canada but testing the free trial)

Annoucment Agent-Presents an on-screen or over speaker announcement to remind kids to feed the animals while Im at work.

Email notification-Send an email to my Black Berry to let me know kids made it home from school alright.

Have never had an issue with reliability that wasnt caused by my own lack of knowledge or procedure of installation.

Now to explain myself: I may sound like Im trying to sell you on this but I want toget this piont across and may save you money in the end.

The world is changing and becoming more advanced everyday. So I do not personally see the piont of buying a system that is dated and can only distribute audio when most clients down the road want more. C4 may be more in price at the begining but less in the end. I have always used the term "You get what you pay for" which also means EVERYTHING towards the dealer you are going for.

I will have to say the most important aspect of the system is your dealer. Control4 is a great product in my eyes and CAN work without flaws IF the dealer has built the system properly which will be the case in any home automation insallation. I have not been a crestron or AMX dealer so maybe I am being bias as they are. I will say that these previous threads have been answered truthfully in my opinion.

Most important... Knowledgeable Dealer!!