ogflatlander Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Hello,We are looking at having a C4 system installed in our theater and I was hoping to get some info on our AC setup. We got a quote from our installer as a basic jumping off point for the system but we have a Thermal Zone split A/C that is controlled by IR. The quote included a thermostat but with no IR port on the unit or rs232c port how would I be able to integrate this into C4? When we are closer to pulling the trigger I will obviously bring this up with the installer but just wanted to get a general idea if this is possible or not. Am I just looking at C4 learning IR code and not having 2 way communication? Thank you for any info and from all the post I have read over the last several months I have great confidence in the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILoveC4 Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Control4 can control any device that accepts IR commands, over IR. It can learn the codes as you mentioned, and send them out via IR bud. Of course, this is only one way control.For two way control you can have an IP driver written, or a serial driver written. I don't know what controller you are looking at, but HC300 or above will have at least one serial port, and the IP just goes out over the ethernet connection.Without knowing what your A/C unit is I don't think anyone will be able to tell you anything further about controlling it because we don't know what it is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ogflatlander Posted July 9, 2009 Author Share Posted July 9, 2009 Thanks we are looking at the HC300 and below is the 13 seer unit we have. So it looks like it will learn the Ir and then they would just need to put a Ir emitter on the device itself if I read that correctly. http://www.irproducts.biz/Documents/Manuals/ThermalZone/TZ-HeatPumpSpec.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILoveC4 Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 I didn't have time to scour over the specs on the unit, but if it accepts IR then Control4 can control it.I don't know how it will interface with the C4 gui though, I don't think you can quickly and easily make a driver for a thermostat, or HVAC unit like you can an audio or video device.One of the experts will chime in here I'm sure, but I don't think you can just quickly and easily make a driver for this that will fall under the comfort tab, and allow you to make temperature adjustments. Actually, it would be impossible because it can't relay back to Control4 what the current temp setting is.I would consult with you dealer before moving forward on that project. Make sure he understands your expectations, and have him create the driver and get it functioning the way you want before you buy it. Just my advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ogflatlander Posted July 9, 2009 Author Share Posted July 9, 2009 Thanks for the quick response. Not a deal breaker for us but just wanted to set my expectations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jberger Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Has your dealer integrated with this brand/model successfully before?It's not going to be a quick process, the dealer will need to write a driver to interface, one way to the device for control. I've seen some of these units using very odd IR freq. that are outside of the normal remote IR ranges, so it might not respond to a standard C4 emitter at all. Call the manufacturer and see what 3rd party thermostats they have success with. If you can't interface an aprilaire or honeywell, it will be a more difficult project. Just off the top of my head, you might be able to use a high current relay to sense the power cycling of the unit, with a 3rd party (Card access) thermometer and try to find an anchor point for control. Or just execute on/off macros based on occupancy and states. Tough to know what is going to work with odd equipment. Not trying to scare you off, but mini-splits are just funky and not usually designed to be integrated with any 3rd party project. I have a client who is looking at one for a new build and Mitsubishi is about the only one with any 3rd party control we can find. there are always work arounds, but just decide what level of control you need before you start the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ogflatlander Posted July 9, 2009 Author Share Posted July 9, 2009 Cool, that is what I was afraid of. We were looking at the Mr. Slims as well but the vender that handles our Liebert systems at my work was able to get this at a great price which is why I am okay with not having it integrated as this room was not tied to our main unit and this saved me ALOT of money which is why the Control 4 was able to be brought into the budget.I don't think our dealer has worked with these before. On the quote he mentioned the purchase and install of the wireless stat depending on if it will tie into our unit after the walk through. So my guess is that he has not worked with this type of unit. Hopefully when we get to the point of moving forward on it and what we are looking for he will have a solution for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanE Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 Split systems are typically difficult to integrate well, mainly because Control4 wants to be able to send an actual setpoint to the unit, and the IR commands for these units don't allow you to send a setpoint, they usually only allow 'up/down' to be sent to the unit, which means that Control4 has no way to tell it 'Change the Heat Setpoint to 72 degrees' or 'Change Cooling Setpoint to 78 degrees'.Without that level of control available, it may not make sense to even try and integrate the split unit.RyanE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cadillackid Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 many of the newer inverter type split systems.. and maybe the older ones too.. send discreet IR commands for each function... meaning that temp up and down send actual temps from the IR remote to the unit.. ie press up and it sends "76" to the unit... this is because the remotes have a temp setpoint display on them and they need to make sure the unit is in sync with the remote... same for the mode change...the toughest one is on / off command because the on command also sends mode and temperature data with it.. so you would have to create a separate IR command for each set of parameters you wish to send the unit..however this makes control very possible...the units im familiar with are the Chigo units... sold under the "Grunaire, Amcoraire,Turboair" to name a few.. these units also have a wired controller as well.. ive not yet been able to crack the serial data protocol they use to comm from the wired controller to the unit... once thats done I can build a device that will have a serial interface....-Christopher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjj31a Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 I have a mini split in our guest suite and be very leery. I have a setup just as described where I have a c4 stat in the room that monitors temp then learned the remote codes and sent to the mini split when needed or motion sensed etc. The problem is the codes are very proprietary. After a year of dinking around with and extensive discussions with Fujitsu the manufacturer I now understand why. The key in a mini split is constant movement. During the summer if you turn on and off the AC it is not as big a deal as turning on and off the heat in the winter. Basically these units must enter into auto defrost modes and cool down modes on their own and messing with the on/off signals outside of their programmed remotes causes many other problems including freeze ups etc. Private message me if you want more details. Your dealer can check out the dealer forums on this issue and will find the same thoughts. There is extensive research on this issue. Don't take "knowing the codes" as the solution as there is more to these units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cadillackid Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 there very much is more than knowing the codes to these units... for one... Inverter type units are rather INEFFICIENT when running at full power.. however are VERY efficient when running at partial power..... because the room temperature probe is located right on the evaporator coil in most all of these units it is important to make sure that the fan runs at least on low speed much of the time.. this temperature probe is not one of the sensors on the copper but is usually right inside the front cover of the unit and is typically a 10k thermistor...I have a rather advanced control system running my minisplits that actually involves a microcontroller.. it also "synchronizes" the temperature of the autmomation system's thermostat room temperature and the temperature the minisplit gets.... setback for minisplits should be just that - setback and not a full on / off scenerio.. inverter types can and will blast out cool air or heat when needbe.. however not efficiently... they throttle capacity down to abput 35-40% at minumum and will throttle up to about 115-120% rated capacity at maximum... you want to keep them in that 40-70% range to gain most efficiency and comfort...on the chigo units they will begin to throttle back the compressor based on runtime and temperature.. in cooling mode.. reach setpoint-1 for 5 minutes unit will reduce capacity.... still below setpoint unit reduce capacity again...temp goes up to setpoint. unit capacity stays the same.... go to setpoint-2 unit shuts down compressor...compressor capacity is also affected by the evaporator coil tube temperatures... if the coil temps drops low it wil vary the electronic expansion valve and compressor speed.... these little units are very intelligent and do a very good job at their assigned task.....these units are very good at maintaining the conditions of a room... however they have the capacity when a quick cooldown or warmup is needed but thats not their intended designnow that said.. if you want to be able to have a unit that takes kindly to being shut off and restarted via computer... then best bet is to buy a 13 SEER standard compressor type unit... these do not have EEV or variable speed compressors.. and they handle changes much better... they have some intelligence built into them but not nearly like the inverter...misubishi does make a centralized control system M-Net for their mr slim series minisplits... it is an XML protocol and could be interfaced with a C4 system, however the M-net solution is VERY pricey to say the least.... inverter units made by chigo are typically the least expensive and have the best defrosting technique by far over anyone elses...-Christopher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ogflatlander Posted July 28, 2009 Author Share Posted July 28, 2009 Thanks for the responses. I will see what my installer thinks but after all the input I may leave that out of the config and see how once all the eqipment is in and living with it if I can survive without needing to play with the settings. Eventually we want to grow the C4 out to the whole house so will just wait until we set up the central unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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