C4 Abilities

[GoGo Delicious]

Hi,

****This is NOT a grip or complaint about C4. I am just trying to compare and get answers. As you may or may not know I had a HORRIBLE install experience and I am a bit weary.****

About 2 months ago I posted my experience regarding my C4 installation experience (http://www.c4forums.com/viewtopic.php?id=1047). In short I had a HORRIBLE C4 installer but at the time I had no major issues with the C4 product itself. Initially I priced out Crestron, AMX and C4. I decided to install C4 in my guest house as a test bed before I did a whole house automation install. Now after 2 month I am ready to go a head with the whole house automation system starting with all the AV components throughout the house. I was thinking about going with C4 but I am now leaning towards Crestron.

The Crestron dealer actually came out with a rack that had all the Crestron equipment in it, including optional equipment, and was pre-programed for our equipment. I gave him a list of equipment and how it was connected about 3 days before they came out. I thought that was cool because when he came out it only took him about 20min to get the demo going. C4 dealers should actually do that if they don't already. I told the Crestron dealer how long it took just to do the guest house which was 5 days. The Crestron dealer said they pre-program 95% of the components PRIOR to delivery so on site time is minimized. I wish our C4 dealer did that.

Now the issues I have with C4 are as follows.

1) Sirius Satellite Radio - Can C4 HTC, Media Controler, display on the remote or touch panel the Sirius Information such as station, song, etc. Currently, C4 does not display this info on the Flat Panel deisplay, TV or Remote. When the Crestron dealer came out they did a demo showing all the Sirius info displayed on the flat panel, the remotes and on our TV. I can not seem to find out how to do this with C4.

2) iPod/iTunes - Can the C4 HTC, Media Controler, remote or touch panel display album artwork, song, artist info, etc. Currently, C4 does not display this info on the Flat Panel display, TV or Remote. Again, when the Crestron dealer came out they did a demo showing all the iPod/iTunes info displayed on the flat panel, the remotes and on our TV. I can not seem to find out how to do this with C4.

3) Speed - During our in house demo, the Crestron seemed to get the system running faster then C4. Has anyone had issues with slow response from C4 systems? Our main house is over 10,000 Sq. Ft. with copper ethernet running to every room at 1GB capable of supporting jumbo frames and fiber running in every room at 10GB and all connecting to a HP 5400zl series switch. I am concerned that C4 only runs at 100Mbs. Currently C4 HTC and Media Controller ethernet ports are only capable of only 100Mbs. I was hoping the new HC-300 would be upgraded to 100/1000. Keep in mind ALL AV equipment is located in one room in the house and it all distributed from there. There are no Cable/Satellite boxes, DVD players, etc in any of the rooms. The rooms only have 1 TV (Pioneer Pro FHD-1) and in wall/celling speakers (depending on which room). All equipment is on one room and thats why I am concerned about speed.

4) Drivers - We had issues during the install in the guest house with a lack of drivers. All our equipment is in the main house is McIntosh (Not to be confused with Macintosh) and when I looked in the Composer software I do not see a lot of the drivers I need. The Crestron dealer said that since all the equipment is in one room and they have worked with the brands we have, that set up would be a breeze. SIDE NOTE - I have spoke to a few C4 dealers/installers in my area since our first install and they all thought McIntosh products were made by Apple computer and B&W (Bowers and Wilkins) were made by BMW. When I talked to the Crestron dealer they knew exactly what I was talking about when I mentioned the 2 brands. I think C4 dealers should receive SOME training by C4 in brands so they are aware of what is out there, other then what is sold at Best Buy. None of the C4 dealers I have spoke with ever heard of the AV brands we have other then the TV's and DVD player, not even Apple TV.

Those are my 4 big issues with C4 in the main house. With, both the guest house and the main house I have the first 2 issues with C4 regarding Satellite and iPod/iTunes. Now keep in mind that I have Composer 1.3.x so I did some of the programming myself so that MIGHT be the issue and I say MIGHT because my original installer and the installers I have contacted have said that C4 can not do items 1 and 2 above. Does anyone know if this is true?

Dealers - Does anyone know of or can recommend a competent, knowledgeable AND reliable dealer? Im in the Orange County area of Southern California.

Thanks for the feed back in advance.

GoGo Delicious

[Sbutter]

I'm not a dealer, but here is what I know.

1) Sirius Satellite Radio - Can C4 HTC, Media Controler, display on the remote or touch panel the Sirius Information such as station, song, etc. Currently, C4 does not display this info on the Flat Panel deisplay, TV or Remote. When the Crestron dealer came out they did a demo showing all the Sirius info displayed on the flat panel, the remotes and on our TV. I can not seem to find out how to do this with C4.

Currently, the "Control4 Multi Tuner" is only XM sat. with AM/FM. If you can live with XM over Sirius, you should get all the information for the XM channels on displays and remotes.

2) iPod/iTunes - Can the C4 HTC, Media Controler, remote or touch panel display album artwork, song, artist info, etc. Currently, C4 does not display this info on the Flat Panel display, TV or Remote. Again, when the Crestron dealer came out they did a demo showing all the iPod/iTunes info displayed on the flat panel, the remotes and on our TV. I can not seem to find out how to do this with C4.

With the new Composer 1.3.2 and a Sonnace iPort, you can control and see iPod information attached to the iPort. Text information is currenly displayed with no cover art. You can search through Playlists, Artists, Songs, and Albums.

3) Speed - During our in house demo, the Crestron seemed to get the system running faster then C4. Has anyone had issues with slow response from C4 systems? Our main house is over 10,000 Sq. Ft. with copper ethernet running to every room at 1GB capable of supporting jumbo frames and fiber running in every room at 10GB and all connecting to a HP 5400zl series switch. I am concerned that C4 only runs at 100Mbs. Currently C4 HTC and Media Controller ethernet ports are only capable of only 100Mbs. I was hoping the new HC-300 would be upgraded to 100/1000. Keep in mind ALL AV equipment is located in one room in the house and it all distributed from there. There are no Cable/Satellite boxes, DVD players, etc in any of the rooms. The rooms only have 1 TV (Pioneer Pro FHD-1) and in wall/celling speakers (depending on which room). All equipment is on one room and thats why I am concerned about speed.

I have heard that speed is improved with 1.3.2 update and with new processors in the new HC-300 Controller.

4) Drivers - We had issues during the install in the guest house with a lack of drivers. All our equipment is in the main house is McIntosh (Not to be confused with Macintosh) and when I looked in the Composer software I do not see a lot of the drivers I need. The Crestron dealer said that since all the equipment is in one room and they have worked with the brands we have, that set up would be a breeze. SIDE NOTE - I have spoke to a few C4 dealers/installers in my area since our first install and they all thought McIntosh products were made by Apple computer and B&W (Bowers and Wilkins) were made by BMW. When I talked to the Crestron dealer they knew exactly what I was talking about when I mentioned the 2 brands. I think C4 dealers should receive SOME training by C4 in brands so they are aware of what is out there, other then what is sold at Best Buy. None of the C4 dealers I have spoke with ever heard of the AV brands we have other then the TV's and DVD player, not even Apple TV.

Given the C4 price point, you will find dealers that mainly install security systems and general retail a/v products. As for drivers, you can create any IR or one way serial driver with Composer. It is very easy and I would hope all dealers know how to do this.

[RyanE]

I am also not a dealer, but it sounds to me like you haven't found the right dealer, especially if they don't know what McIntosh and B&W are.

*I* know what they are, and I'm not a hi-fi person. If they've been in the industry for at least a few years, they should know that.

RyanE

[slemay]

I "AM" a dealer I know what those are too!!

[GoGo Delicious]

I am also not a dealer, but it sounds to me like you haven't found the right dealer, especially if they don't know what McIntosh and B&W are.

*I* know what they are, and I'm not a hi-fi person. If they've been in the industry for at least a few years, they should know that.

RyanE

That's why, in my original post, I asked "Dealers - Does anyone know of or can recommend a competent, knowledgeable AND reliable dealer? Im in the Orange County area of Southern California.".

Sbutter said in his post above "Given the C4 price point, you will find dealers that mainly install security systems and general retail a/v products." and that has been true in my case. So far all the C4 dealers I have contacted come from the security systems side. With the exception of 1. There is a Pioneer owned retail outlet near me that sells and installs C4.

Yestreday, I did visit the Pioneer store in South Coast Plaza and their attitude was HORRIBLE. I went to the Pioneer store looking for a new dealer to work with and to ask more questions about C4. I did not elaborate on our equipment or our house since I wanted them to answer specific questions I had. They were the same questions I posted above with the exception thet I did not tell them I was looking at Crestron nor did I mention that we had C4 in the guest house. When I asked the questions, they were VERY short on their answers and seemed not to have the time to "deal" with me. They said that the C4 can be expensive, that programming STARTS at $500.00 and if I am looking to control a "few" components I would be better off using a Harmony remote since it may be "to expensive for us" my wife was with me. Again, we are young and were dressed liked we just came from the beach so they thought we were just "window shopping". In fact they would not even let my wife handle the touch screen display. They said "please don't touch.". I looked at her and we just laughed. A few min. later we left and thought what idiots. Again negitive experience with a C4 dealer. By the way if any employee from the Pioneer store in Costa Mesa at South Coast Plaza are reading this. The person that helped me was the over-weight, bald guy, in his mid-late 20's or early 30's, I don't remember his name. He had a HORRIBLE, know it all, don't waste my time attitude. There was also a girl there shes the one who barked at my wife about touching the C4 flat panel remote. I will NEVER go back to that store for ANY reason.

At any rate, I believe at this point I am going with Crestron in our main house and for now leaving C4 in the guest house. I did order the new HC-300 for the guest house from the dealer I originaly purchased the system from. I'm just buying the hardware from him and I am going to do the programming myself.

I do like C4 even though there are a few minor issues that I am sure over time will be resolved. But the major reason I am choosing Crestron over C4 is due to the dealers in my area. Again, I am not knocking all C4 dealers as this has been MY personal experience, but none of the C4 dealers have instilled ANY confidence about them with me and my wife. Dont forget it took 5 days to do, what I was told, a simple install that was originally scheduled for 8 hours. The Crestron dealer seemed to be much more knowledgeable, competent and over all more organized.

Again no knock on C4, as I like the product, or the dealers as I am sure there are C4 dealers out there who are knowledgeable and competent it's just that I have not come across any here in OC. I think C4 should screen their dealers VERY VERY carefully.

This is just my 2 cents. Sorry for the ramble.

GoGo Delicious

[Sbutter]

That's why, in my original post, I asked "Dealers - Does anyone know of or can recommend a competent, knowledgeable AND reliable dealer? Im in the Orange County area of Southern California.".

I noticed the C4 website was updated with the following dealer information. I hope your C4 dealers are not in the "Premier" club because you have not experinced the "Everyday Easy" service. However, it looks like they are trying to address the issue.

Control4 Premier Dealer Program

The Control4 Premier Dealer designation highlights those custom integration dealers who specialize in home automation and have achieved key training and experience requirements in Control4 products. All Control4 dealers complete a comprehensive training program to install and support Control4 products but Control4 Premier Dealers are uniquely qualified to make your life Everyday Easy.

[GoGo Delicious]

That's why' date=' in my original post, I asked "Dealers - Does anyone know of or can recommend a competent, knowledgeable AND reliable dealer? Im in the Orange County area of Southern California.".[/quote']

I noticed the C4 website was updated with the following dealer information. I hope your C4 dealers are not in the "Premier" club because you have not experinced the "Everyday Easy" service. However, it looks like they are trying to address the issue.

Control4 Premier Dealer Program

The Control4 Premier Dealer designation highlights those custom integration dealers who specialize in home automation and have achieved key training and experience requirements in Control4 products. All Control4 dealers complete a comprehensive training program to install and support Control4 products but Control4 Premier Dealers are uniquely qualified to make your life Everyday Easy.

My dealer/installer is listed BUT they are nto a "Premier" dealer. I see the Pioneer store, the one I mention above and one other I called that did seem to know what I was talking about are listed as "Premier" dealers.

I will call a few others on the list that I did not call before and see what happens. As of this post I have not cntracted the Crestron dealer as of yet.

GoGo.

[lvs]

GoGo:

I guess I will play a bit of a devils advocate.

First I will say that I own a Control4 system and am expanding it as we speak and even thinking about becoming what I hope would be considered a "good" dealer/installer. It meets my needs at a price point I can afford.

I really commend you for trying to stay with Control4, however, with all your continued bad experiences, I guess I would have to ask why? Why put yourself through the continued frustration and still not have the home control system that meets your needs, maybe not because of hardware but because of incompetent installations? I understand you do currently have an investment in a Control4 system and probably don't wish to throw that away.

But in saying that, you seem to have the means to afford the very best in Crestron or AMX, your house is already wired to the hilt and should support their devices, so that negates the wireless requirements and of course the financial part. The only thing I can think of that you give up with Crestron is your ability to perform any type of system configuration and/or modifications, whereas with Control4 you currently have that capability.

Good luck with whichever direction you take.

[GoGo Delicious]

GoGo:

I guess I will play a bit of a devils advocate.

GoGo:First I will say that I own a Control4 system and am expanding it as we speak and even thinking about becoming what I hope would be considered a "good" dealer/installer. It meets my needs at a price point I can afford.

I really commend you for trying to stay with Control4, however, with all your continued bad experiences, I guess I would have to ask why? Why put yourself through the continued frustration and still not have the home control system that meets your needs, maybe not because of hardware but because of incompetent installations? I understand you do currently have an investment in a Control4 system and probably don't wish to throw that away.

But in saying that, you seem to have the means to afford the very best in Crestron or AMX, your house is already wired to the hilt and should support their devices, so that negates the wireless requirements and of course the financial part. The only thing I can think of that you give up with Crestron is your ability to perform any type of system configuration and/or modifications, whereas with Control4 you currently have that capability.

Good luck with whichever direction you take.

No problem. My wife keeps asking em the same thing. She's pushing for Crestron.

My main reason for staying are as follows.

1) I do have access to the software to do all the programming. If I move to Crestron or any other HA system I lose that. I don't want to call the dealer/installer every time I want to make a change, add a new product (AV, Audio, etc), want to add a key pad/switch.

2) Beyond the money aspect C4 is more convienent for me as I have stated above. Installing and programming the Dimmer Switches/Keypads, touch screens, HTC, etc are every easy. As I stated in my very first post regarding my install experience, my wife even did some programming.

Those are my 2 MAJOR reasons for staying with C4. I dont want to lose the ability to program C4. I have never seen the software to program a Crestron system so I do not know if it's easier or more complicated then C4.

As far as meeting my needs, it's doing the job in the guest house with a few MINOR exceptions that are not a biggie. Those issues are the first 2 that I mention above in the first post of this thread. My big concern is finding a knowledgeable, RELIABLE and competent dealer. I can not have the same installation experience as I have had before. We, my wife and I, both work from home and we need absolute quite (we have no kids). I need installation to be planned out and tested PRIOR to installing in our house. This was what really got me sold on the Crestron dealer. The fact that he was able to config. his demo rack PRIOR to coming to our house. He estimated install would take 3 complete days for the entire house, if we would be able to give him all of Friday, Saturday and Sunday. We can do that no problem. He also stated that we would be the only client scheduled for install. and he would have 3 employees in addition to himself on the job.

A few dealers that seem to be ok said 1) They do not work on Sat or Sun., and 2) when I asked about multiple projects/jobs at one time thay said that they do book/schedule multiple jobs. I did find one dealer in San Diego who seems to be as knowledgeable as teh Crestron dealer but he's booked out until end of Sept, begining of Oct. thats about 2 - 2 1/2 months out. I explaind to him that we work from home and that we need absolute quite and if he can work Fri, Sat and Sun. But he said he does not work weekends and the scope of the job I gave him he said it would take about 5 - 7 days. He can not be exact until he actually comes out and looks. He said it MAY be less then that.

I think I am entertaining Crestron because of the dealer. He, or his company I should say, was so darn organized, EXTREMELY professional and knew exactly what I was talking about. This made a big impression on my wife and I. The products do similar functions and each has it's own pro and cons. I guess I'm really disappointed, NOT in the product, but the dealer experience I have had.

I went to the Crestron dealer after I had the bad install experience and going from a dealer I rate as a 0 to a dealer that is obviously a 10 made a impression on us not only of the dealer but of the product (Crestron). I am SURE if this dealer dealt with C4 and did the same demo but with C4 I would be totally sold and Crestron would not be in the mix.

I hope that answers the question.

GoGo

P.S. Please ignore spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors. As I have not proof read this. I am very tired and my eyes hurt.

[lvs]

I am sure there are some very good Control4 Integrators out there and I am sure there are some not so good Crestron integrators. However, you are really looking at systems on a vastly different scale. The price of admission and standards to becoming a Control4 integrator, are I'm sure, much less stringent and rigorous than becoming a Crestron integrator. What I mean is, the experience, training, on going training, and financial commitment are much greater for Crestron than for Control4. That is why you will see 2, 3 or even far more Control4 dealers in the same area but be hard pressed to find a Crestron dealer. Many of the Control4 dealers are probably and most likely fairly new startup companies with much less of this type of experience and for the larger installs can easily get in over their head, especially if it is the first few installs. Of course with you, the installer you chose was in over his head just getting up in the morning which compounds the problem.

I live in a major metro area and I talked to several C4 dealers, and didn't find one that I feel I could trust. Many tried to woo you with their technical jargon seemingly identifying their vast experience and then trying to tell me the serial port on the HTC was only one way and that I needed the Media Controller instead to control the DVD changer. Finally I went with a dealer that was not local that I could trust and have been installing all my own components. He adds the devices, does the initial bindings and any drivers I might need and I use ComposerHE to handle my own programming. It has worked out very well and I feel comfortable in how the job gets done. I didn't even contact or consider Crestron because I like you wanted to have some control over how my lighting scenes work without having to call my integrator and wait until he has time to get to it. For my size job, I would bet I wouldn't even get a call back from a Crestron or AMX dealer. They sell fewer systems, have less customer base to support but far greater profits on their systems, programming costs etc. I think inking out a business just on Control4 is difficult at best. The price points are much lower, therefore there is less profit per job, however with much of the same time necessary to install and program. Anyway I'm tired and starting to ramble on a bit. I think you catch my drift.