Sync between audio zones HC800

[sdigrego]

I am having a problem with audio sync between zones. My HC800 (Zone 1) distributes audio to a Marantz receiver and to another receiver via my HC500 (Zone 2) and there is significant delay between zones. This is happening with all audio media; digital media, internet radio, AE w/Airplay input into HC800, etc, etc.

Controllers are running 2.2, all network is Gigabit LAN, no wireless.

Zone 1: HC800 Audio to Marantz receiver and to HC500 via LAN network.

Zone 2: HC500 (connected through a Gigabit, Managed Network switch.) which distributes Audio to a Sony Receiver. ( I initially tried adjusting priorization and flow control on the switch but then turned that off when there was no change)

Troubleshooting I have done;

1- I used 2 Airport Express' directly plugged into the same two receivers with absolutely no lag or sync issues, so processing through the receivers is not likely creating the delay as I am using the same inputs (no analog vs. digital issues)

2- Turned off Audyssey on the Marantz, changed the surround modes to Direct or Pure Direct play on both receivers. (The step above told me this wouldn't help anyway but i tried just for fun)

3- Noted that the zone with the HC500 is 2 seconds ahead of the zone coming directly out of the HC800 to the Marantz so that eliminated the possiblity that the slower HC500 processor is causing this.

4- After rebooting the HC500 and HC800, there is no noticeable lag between the zones for a period of time (usually about 4 hours before the lag becomes noticeable).

My only thought is the 500 and 800 are getting out of sync with each other over time, I noticed 2.2.1 has addressed a timeclock sync issue but it doesn't seem to be related to this problem in the release notes.

Any ideas, similar experiences, or solutions? Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

[sdigrego]

Has anyone had sync issues between zones of audio when using multiple contollers?

Is there a difference between using a speakerpoint for a zone vs. using the HC500 for a zone?

[thegreatheed]

Go ahead and update to 2.2.1.

Sounds like you have a time sync issue, whether 2.2.1 will fix it or not i don't know, but the controllers use a network time protocol to sync audio over the network.

[sdigrego]

Updated to 2.2.1. Still no help. The zones started out in sync and after 3 hours they have slowly become out of sync again. Really annoying.

I am about ready to throw away the idea that C4 can distribute audio among zones reliably and go back to using Apple Airplay and Airport Express' or Sonos.

[thecodeman]

So, I'll ask - what's your network setup?

[dogdvr]

why are you not asking your dealer? or are you a dealer? I noticed you updated rather quickly so you might be.

If you want PM me, I will help you find the right forum. If you are a relative of a C4 employee then you need to go your relative to fix this.

Hope you find the answer:)

[CFUG]

Has anyone had sync issues between zones of audio when using multiple contollers?

Yeah, back on 1.8 or something and that was only when adding-in a Denon zone on top of a C4 amp zone. Even then, it only involved stopping the stream and restarting to get back inline.

[sdigrego]

Thanks for your responses.

I am working with my dealer (No, I am not a dealer, nor am I related to any C4 employee). I pay full price for my product just like every other end user/customer. I simply want a second opinion, or, the insight of anyone on the forum who may have encountered this issue ( this is kind of the point of an end user forum, right? ).

As 'thegreatheed' kindly suggested, my dealer recommended an update from 2.2 to 2.2.1 and did it remotely within 2 to 3 days of my call. The issue is still there and my dealer is not sure why this is still happening, and has said they will put a trouble ticket in with C4.

Also, for 'controlfouruserguy', stopping the stream for a period of time then restarting it does not get the sync back inline for me. A reboot of both controllers does though. This is not useful to me however when I am throwing a party with 50 or so guests and I have to keep explaining why there is echo between rooms after about an hour and a half of music play and then i have to fiddle with the system for 15 minutes to get it back inline.

Meanwhile, my very expensive C4 system which purports to have home audio distribution as a selling point, continues to be useful as a lightswitch and a universal remote.

[sdigrego]

To answer theCodeman, I posted a brief description in my initial question above and some of the troubleshooting I have used to eliminate my network as the source of the problem, but I will elaborate.. you asked for it

I am quite experienced with Network management in large enterprise environments, my hardware is solid and network is solid. Network is all Gigabit LAN (no wireless). All hardware on my network is Static IP, Netgear GB managed business switches, NAS storage with GB LAN, CAT5e cabling, no long cable runs. Network switches; No flow control, No VLAN, No Jumbo Frames, No Port Prioritization, etc.

Traffic Example: I can stream uncompressed bluray rip from my NAS to my media player/movie room, while streaming a second uncompressed VOB movie to a second media player while music streams from my NAS to a PC. There is no stutter, pixilation, lipsync, or lag/delay issues with any of the media during this load. I think my network and NAS handles load pretty well. NOTE: none of this is traffic is present/running when I am experiencing this C4 zone sync issue.

NOW; If my network is the problem and delay is being imparted via the network, then why is the remote HC500 Zone audio stream, 2 seconds ahead of the zone that comes directly out of my HC800 into my Marantz Receiver (Audyssey is off on the Marantz, surround modes are Direct or Pure Direct play on both receivers).

To trace the data from source to output; (Internet radio is the example but this happens with all audio sources)

Source Internet Radio from HC800.

Zone 1: HC800 Audio Out Port 1 to Marantz Receiver Audio in.

Zone 2: HC500 Audio Out to Sony Receiver Audio in.

Between Zone 1 (HC800) and Zone 2 (HC500) there is cat5e and a managed business series GB switch.

Note: The audio zone that is delayed, does not go across my network. It goes from the HC800 Audio Out Port 1 to the Marantz Receiver Audio In. The Zone that receives it’s stream from the network is AHEAD of the Zone that comes from the HC800. Unless the 800 is passing the stream to the 500 and then receiving it back from the 500 there is no way the network is causing this sync issue.

[CFUG]

Maybe I missed it but exactly how are you initiating music in for these two zones- one then the other, media scene?? And if you pause and restart, same problem?

[sdigrego]

Great question, I am starting audio in my main room. Then I add the other zone. Could this be the problem? Are zones only kept in sync if they are part of a media scene?

Pausing the stream and restarting doesn't help, only a reboot of both controllers gets the stream back inline.

I will create a media scene and try that.

EDIT: I used a media scene and have the same result. Thanks for the suggestion though.

[ILoveC4]

How hard would it be to utilize a CAT5 to run from one of the receivers back to the other controller with a balun, and have both receivers fed from the same controller.

That would most certainly fix the issue.

I don't experience this problem, likely because all my audio distribution is done with Control4 Amplifiers, and all equipment mounted in one place. Even the one AVR I have works great and is in sync properly, but it's located in the rack with everything else. I have no idea what audio connection it uses because their are numerous ones available, but it works like a champ.

[sdigrego]

Thanks Dan, I guess I will have to research that, I don't know a lot about the balun option. I could make that work..

The interesting thing is that when I used two Airport Express' to distribute audio between my second zone receiver and my HC500 zone before I got the HC800, there was no lag/sync issue.

I am assuming that the HC500 acts as a speaker point so purchasing a speaker point to sit along side the HC500 would not help, or would they handle the audio differently?

As a funny side note: don't bother to check if your zones are in sync using the beginning of the WHO's - 'Teenage Wasteland' , damn near impossible:)

[CFUG]

^Right, because you bypassed the hardwired situ you have now and did not have a problem, that was sufficient I believe. I was about to suggest this and it still may prove interesting to try.

[sdigrego]

^Right, because you bypassed the hardwired situ you have now and did not have a problem, that was sufficient I believe. I was about to suggest this and it still may prove interesting to try.

Do you mean using wireless with the AE's instead of LAN? If so, this is not the case because previously I was not using wireless with either Airport Express; both AE's had wireless radio's disabled and were plugged into the exact same network cables using my LAN network. They were acting solely as a method for audio distribution to both zones. Essentially they were speaker points getting their network via LAN, exactly the same way C4 is getting it now.

But thanks for the suggestion.

[ILoveC4]

Not sure what you mean by bypassing the hardwired situ i have now.

Do you mean using wireless with the AE's instead of LAN? If so, this is not the case because I was not using wireless with either Airport Express, both AE's had wireless radio's disabled and were plugged into the exact same network cables using my LAN network. They were acting solely as a method for audio distribution to both zones. Essentially they were speaker points getting their network via LAN, exactly the same way C4 is getting it now.

But thanks for the suggestion.

What I mean was use a balun to pass an audio out from either the HC800 or HC500, to the other AVR that isn't local to that controller.

That way you could have two audio outs from the same controller feeding two AVR's. I think it would eliminate your issue.

[sdigrego]

Thanks Dan, I understood what you were saying about the baluns and after looking at it a bit more this afternoon, i may try that option. I was responding to another post and forgot to include the quote, fixed it.

[sdigrego]

While my dealer waits for a solution from Control4, I fixed/worked around the audio sync problem myself by removing C4 from the equation.

I simply unplugged the audio outs from my hc800 and hc500 and connected the cables to two Apple Airport Express' which are connected (via LAN not wireless) to my network on the same switches with the exact same configuration as the C4 controllers were. iTunes is also streaming music from my NAS Storage just the same as the HC800 was set up to do. I am now streaming at least my itunes and internet radio in sync.

Interesting how this works so well with two $99.00 AE's, yet my $3000+ C4 system can't seem to keep my music in sync between two zones for more than 3 hours without a reboot.

If I get a solution from C4 I will post.