Heat Miser

[K3NA]

Has anyone, especially in the UK, had any experience with a Heat Miser heating system.

I have a control 4 system installed which controls heating (heat Miser), AV and lighting in the house. The system was installed 15 months ago but from almost day one I have been having problems with the heating.

The Heat Miser system is controlled from control 4 via an extra vegetables interface.

 

The problem is that it keeps losing the connection to control the heating from the control 4 system and I have to use the room thermostats in each heating zone to set the heating. I am unable to use the control 4  to control it. A full system reboot normally fixes the issue but now this doesn't even work. There is no wifi etc as it is all hard wired with cat 5 cable. This problem keeps re-occurring every 2 to 3 months.

I have heard that maybe the dealer/installer has used the wrong cable and should have used cat 6 shielded cable from the heat miser thermostats and that we may be getting interference from other cables, hence sending a spurious reading to control 4.

The dealer has offered to come out and install new cables but this is not an option as the cables are now plastered into the walls and the house has just been redecorated and new carpets fitted. My wife point blank refuses to have any of the walls touched. I can't really blame her for this as the system was installed whilst we were having the house renovated and a large extension built and she had to live in the house whilst all the building work was taking place. I was working away at the time.

 

Has anyone else had any problems with a system like this. or can offer up any recommendations as to how to rectify this.

[turls]

Why would they have to disturb the walls to install new cable?  They attach the new cable to the old, then pull it through.  Not in every case, just checking though.

[Cyknight]

Hollow walls not common in the UK turls.

While shielded cable might work better, and cat6 is better than cat5, I'm not so sure it's likely that interference is your issue here - then again there isn't much else I could think of either.

 

Keep in mind that heatmiser has a wireless option as well so perhaps that can give an outcome here?

[K3NA]

Thanks Guys

This is an old house that we completely renovated. All the internal walls are brick, to get to the cables the plaster has to removed. It's not just the walls where the thermostats are, it's also lifting new flooring to follow the run of the cables back to where the control 4 units are located. Some of this flooring is quite expensive Karndean which I obviously don't want the dealer touching as it was laid by a specialist after all the cables were pulled during first fix of the renovation work.

I am looking at the wireless system from heat miser. That would just be a case of changing out the thermostats for wireless ones ( 4 off ) and the heat miser wiring unit for a wireless one. I need to speak to them on monday.

 

When this problem first started to occur, a few months after the installation, if i rebooted the system it would reset everything and all would be fine. It would work for a few months then happen again. Once again a reboot would sort it, but not even a reboot fixes the problem now it is permanently off. The interface between control 4 and the heating doesn't work, just shows up with a red circle with a line through it on the user interface. This leads me to think that something has failed and not the cable. If it was the cable it would work okay until that particular cable got interference.

 

What do you think ???

Do you think this is a correct assumption.

 

I am also having trouble trying to get my dealer/installer to come and have a look at this, he has got bigger fish to fry so to speak.

I have been waiting for 4 months and 4 failed visits for him to come and rectify a problem with my security cameras. A problem which his engineer caused during their last visit.

If I had known his customer service was going to be this crap I wouldn't have had the system installed at all. It is now the cause of many arguments with my wife.

Unfortunately he is the only one in the area plus this is obviously work that he will have to foot the bill for.

I paid him decent money for this system and would expect it to work, with a few teething problems of course, but 15 months down the line and I am still having major issues.

[Cyknight]

Sorry to hear of all your issues.

Interference on the wires COULD be the cause, but as you mentioned it's not all that likely. As I also said, there's so little else to go wrong.

Can you say what exact setup you have? There's three versions that can be integrated really, one is the WiFi which you obviously don't have, the others are the UH1 and the Neo. I also know that the UH1 USED to be IP which has been discontinued (presumably due to some issues?) and replaced with a serial version...

Knowing which unit you have may allow for some added depth in trying to help determine the root cause?

 

Oh and going to the WiFi version would require a change in driver, just so you're aware.

[K3NA]

Thanks Cyknight.

I have the touch screen Heatmiser PRT-NTS thermostats wired with cat 5 cable to the heat miser UH1 wiring unit.

I did another full system reboot this morning and still nothing which makes me think something has failed and not an interference problem.

I could be wrong though.

[Cyknight]

UH1, do you know if it's connected via IP or serial to the system? While I'm not be default familiar with that unit in particular, I assume EV had a good reason to drop the IP version of the driver in favor of an RS-232 one - could well be this is part of it. You could also go to extravegetables.com and see if you can ask the question...

[K3NA]

Thanks again Cyknight. I'm not 100% certain but I think it's IP. I will have a look tomorrow as it's getting late here. The UH1 is at the back of the rack behind the control 4 and it's a pain to get to. I will be contacting Heat Miser on monday and then speaking with my dealer.

 

Edit: I've just tried to get a look at the UH1 and the extra vegetables interface. It looks as it's IP. The serial port on the EV interface is not connected.

[kemik]

Hi K3NA,

 

Your assumption of it not being shielded Cat5/6 cabling is quite possibly the problem. Heatmiser stated very clearly and many times to all installers of that version of their products that shielded cable must be used. I can remember Dave at Heatmiser telling me a dozen times or more on my training it must be shielded cable

 

We're a fully qualified Control4, Heatmiser, Extra Vegetables reseller in the UK and I feel for you as I've seen it all before the Heatmiser Cat5 system with the wrong cabling. Heatmiser themselves will tell you they've had soooo many 'dealers' put the wrong cables in on that solution and then Heatmiser support have had to deal with the problems.

 

Which part of UK are you in? I'll help you if I can. Maybe if your IP addressing has been setup for DHCP with all the reboots the IP addresses may have changed and the EV driver is configured with the wrong IP and thats stopping any communications.

[K3NA]

Thanks kemik

I live in the north east, Sunderland ( don't mention football  )

I am fairly certain that my dealer set everything up on the system with static IPs so that this wouldn't cause any problems with rebooting.

Again I could be wrong.

My wife states that there is no way they are chiselling into the walls or lifting the flooring to change the cables. She would quite happily go back to a conventional heating system, given all the problems we have had with this one and I can't really blame her. My dealer is being a right pain in the *** with this and other problems. I know he has taken on numerous large projects recently and he just doesn't have the available man power plus he will have to foot the bill to rectify this.

I am now looking at going down the wireless route.

Would that just be a case of changing out the UH1 to a wireless one and then changing the touch screen thermostats to wireless ones then reprogramming the control 4 i.e. adding a new driver. The price he would have to pay someone to rectify this problem and redecorate, I could probably purchase and install the wireless kit cheaper.

What is annoying me the most is I paid a lot of money for the complete system and now he has the money his after sales is crap.

If there was another dealer nearby I would quite happily change, but there isn't.

[kemik]

I'm based in the Northwest I'm afraid otherwise would have offered to call round FOC and discuss options with you.

 

The unfortunate news is that the new Heatmiser Neo system although excellent uses 'traditional' heating wiring as opposed to Cat5/6 cabling so to upgrade to that would require different cabling. Have you spoken to Heatmiser directly to see if there is anything at all they can do to help they are incredibly helpful?

 

I'll PM you my number if you want and feel free to call me to discuss anything and/or I could possibly remote into your system to take a look

[Intellisol]

We are having a similar issue with a client.  It seems to be due to the IP driver not communicating with the UH1 fast enough before the next round of polling is done.

 

I'm about to change the client to serial to see if this improves the issue.

 

ExtraVegtables have also confirmed that this is the reason for dropping the IP module.

[Cyknight]

^ Well there you go

[K3NA]

I have just spoken with HeatMiser technical department today and it appears that this is the case. The dealer/installer has used the wrong type of cat 5 cable. It SHOULD be shielded and the shield earthed at the UH1 wiring end.

I am looking at installing the HeatMiser NEO thermostats to replace the touchscreen ones that I have. These require a 230v supply but I can use the installed cat 5 as a 12v switch wire back to the UH1 unit. So instead of pulling half the house to bits to replace the cat 5 cables I only have to chase the walls to the thermostats to provide a 230v supply. I can then use either control 4 or the HeatMiser app to control the system as well as the thermostats.

 

Must say a big thankyou to Kemik for his help also.

[kemik]

I have just spoken with HeatMiser technical department today and it appears that this is the case. The dealer/installer has used the wrong type of cat 5 cable. It SHOULD be shielded and the shield earthed at the UH1 wiring end.

I am looking at installing the HeatMiser NEO thermostats to replace the touchscreen ones that I have. These require a 230v supply but I can use the installed cat 5 as a 12v switch wire back to the UH1 unit. So instead of pulling half the house to bits to replace the cat 5 cables I only have to chase the walls to the thermostats to provide a 230v supply. I can then use either control 4 or the HeatMiser app to control the system as well as the thermostats.

 

Must say a big thankyou to Kemik for his help also.

 

No problem.

 

Hope its not against the rules but if anyone is looking for Control4, Heatmiser, etc in UK from authorised dealer email me chris@astute-av.com 

 

Thanks

[Intellisol]

Don't give up on the UH1 just yet. Try changing it to a serial connection for better communication the converter is only £8 plus a lead. Though I agree with what heatmiser have said the shielding is primarily there to protect against intrerference so as long as the installer has run the cable properly there shouldn't that much interference.

Must be worth a try. I could probably spare some time in the few weeks to help switch the driver over remotely. That way you only loose £8 if it doesn't work

[Cyknight]

Don't give up on the UH1 just yet. Try changing it to a serial connection for better communication the converter is only £8 plus a lead. Though I agree with what heatmiser have said the shielding is primarily there to protect against intrerference so as long as the installer has run the cable properly there shouldn't that much interference.

Must be worth a try. I could probably spare some time in the few weeks to help switch the driver over remotely. That way you only loose £8 if it doesn't work

Yeah I'd at least attempt it too.

[K3NA]

To be honest I don't know exactly where the cables have been run. I was working abroad in Norway at the time. These are photos of the final cable run into the area where the rack and system are placed. There are multiple power cables for lighting and all the cat 5 cables, HDMI etc..

I think the cables then run together under the floor at the top of the stairs and up inside one wall into the loft area before branching out to various locations.

 

 

[K3NA]

Having had numerous discussions with my dealer/installer he is blaming everyone but himself. The plumber who installed the boiler, the electrician who rewired the house etc etc, even though he supplied all the cat5 cable and plans where each cable has to run to. All he has offered me is a refund on the extra vegetables driver. I have spoken with heat miser at length over the past week and the system I have installed is not compatible with any of their others as it's 12v networked. I am now left in a situation where I have a heating system that doesn't operate the way I wanted and paid for.

I am now having all the heat miser system removed and going back to a conventional system operated by one remote thermostat.

I am considering legal action as my next step.

[whitey]

I work for a UK install company and have integrated the heatmiser UH1 with Control4 a few times. What I don't understand from your posts is; does the heating system work independently of Control4? If it does then cabling isn't the issue, the issue is down to the "link" between Control4 and the UH1. I haven't used the IP driver from EV only the serial version mainly because it is cheaper and the IP driver as far as I remember isn't a true IP driver, it just connects to a IP to RS-485 converter (which was why the IP driver was more expensive as the converter was supplied with the driver).

 

I would try the serial driver if possible with, like some else mentioned, a cheap RS-485 to RS-232 converter before you give up hope. Also the heatmiser thermostats have to be in 7-day mode to work correctly with the driver.

 

I hope this helps

[K3NA]

Thanks Whitey. To be honest I haven't a clue how it's connected up, IP./ serial or whatever. I think it's IP but can't be sure. I know the EV driver was £165. I'm not savvy with all this computer/connection talk. I can use one and that's about it. The UH1 is in the back of a cupboard behind the rack and I can't get to it without dismantling the rack. ( put there by my installer )

The system is working independantly at the moment as the control 4 connection has been lost although it has not been removed in composer.

However sometimes when it goes haywire I can't even control it from the thermostats. I need to cut the power and reboot for it to work normally again.

Heatmiser tech support state all the problems are due to unshielded cable being used.

Lets say it was IP and not serial, if i was to change the connection between control 4 and the UH1 to serial. Do you think that would cure the problems I have been having ???

[whitey]

Thanks Whitey. To be honest I haven't a clue how it's connected up, IP./ serial or whatever. I think it's IP but can't be sure. I know the EV driver was £165. I'm not savvy with all this computer/connection talk. I can use one and that's about it. The UH1 is in the back of a cupboard behind the rack and I can't get to it without dismantling the rack. ( put there by my installer )

The system is working independantly at the moment as the control 4 connection has been lost although it has not been removed in composer.

However sometimes when it goes haywire I can't even control it from the thermostats. I need to cut the power and reboot for it to work normally again.

Heatmiser tech support state all the problems are due to unshielded cable being used.

Lets say it was IP and not serial, if i was to change the connection between control 4 and the UH1 to serial. Do you think that would cure the problems I have been having ???

 

No, I don't think changing the connect from IP to serial will not prevent your system from going "haywire" if the cabling is to blame, it will only help with the Control4 "link"

[K3NA]

Just an update regarding this problem. It turned out to be a snapped clip on a RJ45 connection. On the cable between the heat miser kit and my 16 port switch. This connection was seated in place but wasn't obviously locked into position and was losing contact now and again. New cable has solved the problem. Everything is now working as it should.

[Alexandru Vasile]

Just an update regarding this problem. It turned out to be a snapped clip on a RJ45 connection. On the cable between the heat miser kit and my 16 port switch. This connection was seated in place but wasn't obviously locked into position and was losing contact now and again. New cable has solved the problem. Everything is now working as it should.

Good to hear that any way your system should work really good now, even if you have the old heatmiser system, with has a wired connection. We are using the Neo right now since they updated and it seems very stable.

If you have any more problems request your C4 dealer to change the connection cable and to test the UH1.

 

Regards Alex.