Pricing??

[thefred]

I apologize if my response came off at all angry. I'm certainly not angry with you, and think you're certainly within your rights to price shop for whatever you want to price shop for (parts/labor/package/etc.)

Perhaps my statement should have better read "If the consensus is that 17 people tell me that they are paying 25% off, why should I move forward with a dealer that won't discount WITHOUT INQUIRY OF FURTHER DEALERS?"

My main point is that there's very little way for you to compare apples to apples and have 17 people on here say they were paying 25% off. Dealers don't all work the same way. Some sell at MSRP, some may discount. It may (as others have said) depend on volume purchased. Some may have pre-set packages, that are all inclusive for a single price. It's just not likely that within this crowd, you're going to find a consensus of people who will say 'yes, I got X discount', and even if you do, it may or may not apply in your area.

I think if you're interested in finding out if there are discounts available from the dealers in your area, you're going to have to ask the dealers in your area.

That's why I'm just trying to find out is there is any discounting going on. If there's not, then that's the end of the story. And that would be fine too.

There certainly must be *some* discounting going on, but I'm guessing based on my dealings with Control4 dealers that there's not *much* discounting going on, but that's just my personal 'feel' for the situation.

I actually misspoke. Control4 dealers *do* compare pricing on the Official Control4 Dealer Forums, but every time I've seen it, they're typically comparing *labor* and/or *package* pricing. I've NEVER seen a discussion of dealers asking how much they charge over/under MSRP. I get the feeling that MSRP is pretty much standard pricing for a lot of them.

Good luck with your project.

RyanE

Thanks Ryan. I am surpised to hear that the dealers discuss labor as opposed to equipment pricing. I would have thought it to be the other way around. I would find it rather difficult to try to compare labor pricing as a consumer. Really, I was just trying to find out generally if there was any discounting on equipment and I think I now have about as good an answer as I'm going to get. It looks like the range is from no discount to 10-20%.

I'm a little taken aback that so many dealers came out swinging because I simply asked a questions about pricing. And, honestly, I can't really undertand why I am being attacked and some say asking about price makes me a bad customer. I understand that every dollar they discount is a dollar out of their pocket and that is why they are opposed to it. But, every dollar I spend on this is a dollar I can't spend on something else. Comparing apples to apples and factoring in service as a major part of the equation, I'm sure if given the opportunity, none of the dealers here would voluntarily pay more for something than they had to.

[RyanE]

I can certainly see why you feel you're being attacked, but I don't think that's been anyone's purpose in trying to answer your question, even James. I think James was just trying to point out that it's not in the best interest of even a good dealer to offer a new customer anything other than MSRP, while they're 'shopping for' the customer. Until the dealer knows the customer and/or has a certain volume, MSRP is typically the way to go.

Certainly, dealers are going to answer this question differently than end users.

Again, I apologize if you've been offended by responses on the forums.

Good luck with your project.

RyanE

[GoGo Delicious]

1)

James, I appreciate the that you are taking the time to follow up with me, but you seem to be missing some significant points I am trying to make. Perhaps I'm not making myself clear. Let me try again. PRICE IS NOT THE MOST MOTIVATING FACTOR. You say that a dealer can pick up on that right away. Well, you're not so good at making that determination if you keep repeating that statement after everything I have already said. I have already said that if there is no discounting, then so be it.

I am not the one that said "Sounds like the price is the most motivating factor for your situation." Im just pointing out what the other dealer on this board picked up on and stated and to which I happen to agree.

2)

Let me ask you this. If I have $100,0000 to spend and don't know what something should cost, how could I determine a fair price if I did not know what the market was charging?

You do know the fair price. It was stated to you in your quote by your C4 dealer. The FAIR price is MSRP. Anything ABOVE MSRP is NOT FAIR AND WRONG. Anything below MSRP is DEALER DISCRETIONARY.

3)

Should I spend $100,000 on something that others are paying $25,000 for simply because I told the dealer that I could spend $100,000? I just can't blindly say that controlling my lights is worth X or distributed sound is worth Y. That is why I'm doing this research. Perhaps you want me to leave it to you to say I want to be able to do X and you say it will cost Y and then I just blindly say OK. Its not about a budget. I can spend whatever I want on the system. I just don't know what it "should" cost, whatever "should" means. The point is that me just picking a number (with no basis) and asking can you do all of this for X seems really dumb to me if I don't know what it should cost.

If ANY dealer be it C4, Crestron, AMX, etc charged 4x as much for a project that should realistically cost $25,000 (including hardware @ MSRP and labor) would 1) NOT last in business too long 2) Word would get around on forums like this and that company would lose business fast. Not mention thats not ethical. If a client came to us with a budget of $100K and I knew the project would run $25K I would CERTAINLY not charge him the $100K thats borders on illegal. Thats PLAIN WRONG

4)

For the most part, I'm going to skip the GC discussion

I am not going to skip it.

5)

I only interposed that to provide some context about how I got to the dealer and that I'm just not someone coming off the street without a relationship. I'm am sure you'll argue that its not my relationship but that of the GC .... but that's not getting me any closer to the information I am seeking.

BUT OH NAY NAY . . .It is getting you closer to teh information you are seeking. For some reason you believe you have a "Relationship" with your dealer because your GC recommended him to you. Surprise . .You dont. Your dealer has NO incentive to offer you a discount. I am sure you are not the only one your GC has sent to him. Let me ask you this, 1) How much have you purchased from your dealer in the past year? HINT: If you want t discount you better not say $0. 2) How many people have you referred to your C4 dealer that have made a purchase? HINT: Again, it should be > 0. 3) How many times have you played Golf, had lunch/dinner, etc with your dealer? You know the drill. It should be > 0 if you are seeking a discount.

My point is this. You truly need to have a relationship with your dealer if you expect a discount on MSRP. A mutual acquaintance between you and your dealer is NOT a relationship. All of my clients I can say are friends. We truly have relationships with each other to the point where they have called me asking for referrals in regards to personal matters. They know we charge MSRP and we do not discount. But that not only gets them 100% guarantee. We also will make sure someone is on site within an hour 24/7 IF there are any issues. We started that policy in the beginning of the year and to this date we have NEVER had a support call. Also, as it states on our web site, we ONLY take one customer at a time. WE do not have 3,4 or 5 projects at a time going on. A client we accept get 100% of our attention until the very end when the client signs off.

I am sure there are other Crestron/Kaleidescape dealers out there our clients can go to who will give them a discount BUT along with that discount on MSRP comes a discount in service. Im sure they will not get 24/7 on site support from the other dealer. I'm also sure that the other dealer(s) have more then one project at a time and will not get 100% attention.

Before asking about discount. Find out what your dealer is providing. Actually if you have a relationship with your dealer you would know that already.

6)

But, I do think you're wrong about the fact that if the GCs customers started going elsewhere and getting quality work for less, the GC might start to send his customers elsewhere if they were getting the same quality for less.

I HIGHLY doubt your C4 dealer will lose business from your GC if he, your C4 dealer, does not offer you a discount. Your GC and your C4 dealer have a longer history, 20 years, then you and your GC have.

7)

You're on the verge of becoming insulting to say that I don't understand value. Just because I want to know what the going rate is for something somehow means I don't understand value?

I apologize. I truly do I do not mean to insult you in any way. I do have to say this. I do believe you DO NOT understand not only the value of C4 BUT the value that your C4 dealer brings to the table. You said "Just because I want to know what the going rate is for something somehow means I don't understand value?". You are confusing "Going Rate" with "Value". First off you know the going rate. It's what your C4 dealer quoted you in the MSRP. What you are asking for is a DISCOUNT. The question that should be asked is, do you know the value of your dealer and of C4? If you say yes then do you honestly feel that your C4 dealers knowledge, their customer support, and experience deserves to be discounted? We are NOT talking about programming. Programming covers JUST THAT programming. The cost of the hardware, the MSRP covers operations, customer support, hiring and training of staff that is MORE THAN COMPETENT.

8)

You don't want to be challenged. You just want people to pay your price or go elsewhere. That's fine. You are entitled to run your business the way you choose. But because someone asks questions about your price, that means that they are a bad customer who doesn't understand value?

Your not asking about price you are asking about a discount. There is a difference. If some one came to me and said "I have this quote from a Crestron dealer can you bet it?" I would look at it and say sorry I cant. Thats price. Even if I could I would say no. Thats the type of client that no dealer wants, no matter if there a C4, Crestron or AMX dealer.

Now if I give a potential client a quote (he did not provide a budget to begin with) and he ask for a discount I will more than likely say we do not offer discounts on hardware. Then I will inform him of why we do not offer discount and how we do business and what he can expect from us in terms of operation, programming, performance and support of his system. If he still feels that the price is not worth what he's getting than I would suggest to him/her we would not be the right company for them.

9)

Again, you're not reading too well or I'm not being clear. Did you see where I first spoke about labor? Its my second post near the top. It says "I'm OK with the labor pricing." How does that indicate that I don't understand why labor/programming costs as much as it does? Let be honest here. You like customers that don't require hand holding (meaning they don't ask a lot of questions) and want to pay full retail price (open check book). Who doesn't want those kinds of customers? I hope there is a long string of open check books in your future.

I will open up a bit here regarding how we run our business. First off 95% of our business comes from GC's, Architects and Interior Designers, we RARELY get a outside Resi. client (starting in 2009 we will be going through GC's, Architects and Interior Designers exclusively with a FEW exceptions). With that said we use to have to compete with C4, Lutron, AMX, LifeWare, etc when we first started going straight to GC's, Architects and Interior Designers. Over the year we have become the top pick why? Because of the value we add to the GC's, Architects and Interior Designers firms. We make them look good when it comes to electronic architecture. How do we do that? By offering a 100% guarantee on product and programming, 24/7 on site support, and the fact that the GC's, Architects and Interior Designers client get 100% of our attention. One project at a time. All this comes at a cost thats NOT covered by programming BUT covered by the MSRP and usually under budget. There is no such thing as a open check book.

10)

But back to my original question, I guess your answer would be that you don't offer any discounts, right?

To be honest we M I G H T it depends on the situation. We have done some work for non-profits at a discount.

In Summary - I am not attacking you but trying to help you see why a discount should not be expected or assumed one would be given due to the economy. As I mentioned above market price is MSRP and what VALUE you are getting for that MSRP is something your dealer should talk to you about. If you feel that your C4 dealers knowledge, their customer support, and experience is not worth the MSRP quoted then find another dealer. Simple as that.

[neil12011]

Fred,

Bottom line, I honestly have never heard of anyone discounting hardware except for the online retailers out there. I know dealers talk alot about what do you charge to install "x" or program "y". Although, now that you mention it, I may make coupons I wasn't making assumptions about your motives, it just seemed that price was the main issue, and nothing wrong with that. BTW, I posted regarding your speakercraft question. Feel free to email or call me if you need assistance with the time series. Good luck with your project.

Neil Blasingame

Garrison Home Theater

neil_blasingame@yahoo.com

678-644-5090

[akg4y]

Go Go, I dont know if you mean them to be, but your posts come off as very inciteful and abrasive. You may not agree with discounting, but it happens and it is completely fair and reasonable for customers to find out what degree of discounting is going on. If those customers choose solely based on price and end up with a bad dealer then so be it, warning them is fair game but I think the way you come off in your posts is basically condescending and angry.

Some dealers sell at MSRP, but to say that is 'fair' is completely a matter of opinion. MSRP on Polk Audio speakers is about 4 times what I can find them for with a simple Google search, and the vast majority, if not all electronics products can be bought at significantly below MSRP. Using that as a barometer is of little value.

Also, regarding having 0 relationship with your dealer meaning you get no discount, that may be the way you operate but I can guarantee with the amount Im spending on my system if I wasnt offered any form of discount I would have found another good dealer that provided one relatively easily. Volume matters, regardless of the level of prior relationship.

[GoGo Delicious]

There seems to be some confusion between FAIR value and MARKET value. FAIR value IS NOT equal to or the same as MARKET value.

Fair Value is what the seller and buyer agree upon as a price in which goods AND SERVICES will be traded at. MSRP in this case was FAIR VALUE to the C4 dealer but apparently not to the buyer who felt that a discount should be offered. I will state that anything above MSRP is NOT Fair Value.

As far as Market Value goes Market Value is what the price point willing to be paid in a open market. Where you are just looking for a commodity and not service, the dealers knowledge or their experience. Yes you can purchase C4 over the internet at prices MOST dealers will not sell at. Example eBay. There you will see Market Value pricing. A quick look shows a brand new, in box 10.5 in Wireless Touch Screen V2. for $1500. I believe these retail for $2500.00. Now how many dealers on this site will sell it the same TP for $1500.00? I doubt any will. Yet $1500 is the Market Price.

As far as angry and condescending nahhh . . far from it. I am just direct. We are all adults and I say exactly what's on my mind. I have never been able to Sugar Coat anything. Im straight forward & honest. You will always know where I stand. People who know me say I get emotional about things but I just say exactly what I feel.

[dgbrown]

Hey GoGo - You owe this guy an apology. Go back and read your responses .... "abrasive" is putting it lightly. TheFred's got a valid point from a consumer perspective and as a rep of C4 you've just gone on the attack. You crossed a line. To be real clear if TheFred ws looking for a dealer referral in your jurisdiction do you think he'd want to do business with you ? Or even want to by c4 for that matter ? or perhaps if you knew he was in your neck of the woods your tone would have been a little different.

You obviously answered akg4y's question.

[RyanE]

I could be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure that GoGo is NOT a rep of Control4.

He is NOT a Control4 dealer.

He is an automation dealer, yes, but does not carry the Control4 line.

RyanE

[akg4y]

Yeah he's not, he has a long post explaining why.

[GoGo Delicious]

Yeah he's not, he has a long post explaining why.

akg4y has it right.

[GoGo Delicious]

Hey GoGo - You owe this guy an apology.

This is a forum where one can voice their opinion. I voiced MY OPINION on the subject some will agree and more than likely MOST will disagree.

A person usually apologizes if they think that have said something wrong or done something wrong. When ones gives their opinion on how they feel about a subject, they have said nor they have done anything wrong. Thus a apology is NOT warranted.

[dgbrown]

I could be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure that GoGo is NOT a rep of Control4.

He is NOT a Control4 dealer.

He is an automation dealer, yes, but does not carry the Control4 line.

RyanE

Sorry Ryan I missed that. Thanks for the restate and the clarity./Dave

[jesh]

My dealer wanted around $45,000 for my whole install.

I gave him $39,000.

[gadget-giff]

Why is everyone so fixed up on the price of the goods and the price of the labour, I'm a UK C4 dealer, I dont give prices on the components, I quote on an entire system package including parts, labour and consultation. Its like trying to buy a £40,000 BMW, who cares what the price of the tyres are, I cant drive the car without them, I cant buy the car without them! I could get the tyre cheaper at Costco, but BMW are not going to fit them to a factory new car! Therefore the sum of the parts and labour is total, and discount is negotiated on the overall package.

I give no discount on MSRP but do a settlment discount on most jobs if all stage payments are prompt.

[hehateme]

I had the same question about discounting. Instead of asking folks in the forum I asked someone who has had Control4 system over the year and had done many upgrades.

The answer I got was they never get discount on the labor charges however they have received discounts of between 5% to 25% of MSRP.

I am evaluating proposals and price one of the considerations but it is not the only factor in my decision. I will get 3 proposals, choose one of them, check their references and give them my business.

[Mav-Jason]

Why is everyone so fixed up on the price of the goods and the price of the labour, I'm a UK C4 dealer, I dont give prices on the components, I quote on an entire system package including parts, labour and consultation. Its like trying to buy a £40,000 BMW, who cares what the price of the tyres are, I cant drive the car without them, I cant buy the car without them! I could get the tyre cheaper at Costco, but BMW are not going to fit them to a factory new car! Therefore the sum of the parts and labour is total, and discount is negotiated on the overall package.

I give no discount on MSRP but do a settlment discount on most jobs if all stage payments are prompt.

Very interesting point!