Pricing??

[thefred]

OK, I have done my research, talked to the dealer's customers and think I have landed on the right group to do this project. Next question. I know no one does this just for fun (well maybe for fun but not for free!) and there needs to be some profit in it since they have to eat too. The labor pricing on the proposal is a flat rate for the project and I know that would be very difficult to compare since no one would know the exact intricacies of the project without seeing it and the labor represents about 25% of the total project cost. I have seen some online pricing which appears to be substantially lower than my proposal, but I'm not sure how that is being sold direct to the public. But what should the fair price range be for the following equipment:

HC-500

HC-300

TSWM7

AVM-TUN1X-B

16AMP3-B

AVM-16S1-B

Thanks in advance!

[slemay]

Not knowing what they're doing - I'd say 25% would be about right. Cheaper labor rates will get you crappy installs, or so it's been our experience (when we've come along and fixed them).

[thefred]

I'm OK with the labor pricing. I'm more interested in the hardware pricing range.

[henniae]

I'm OK with the labor pricing. I'm more interested in the hardware pricing range.

C4 has MSRP pricing. Any dealer selling below that is violating their dealer agreement.

[ruckus]

When I did my project I was given 10% off equipment, but the project included many non control 4 items. So they may have sold the C4 at retail and discounted the no C4 to make it all work out if discounting C4 is not legal.

[thefred]

Actually, the S in MSRP stands for SUGGESTED. If everyone is being required to sell for that price, that is something different. And that would seem to be a violation of the Sherman Act. Are you saying that all dealers must sell at MSRP and no one can or does discount anything?

[thecodeman]

Most dealers I know will sell at MSRP.

[RyanE]

As you said, you'll find discounted equipment online from time to time, but warranty work is handled through dealers, so if you have trouble with the online-purchased equipment, you'll have a harder time having your warranty honored, since Control4 does not deal directly with customers.

RyanE

[thefred]

I'm not trying to buy online and I am planning to buy from the dealer. But, in this day and age, with the economy the way it is, there must be some discounting going on. I'm just trying to get an acceptable range of what the best pricing should be from the dealer. I feel like the dealers on here may not want to say how much they discount for fear that they don't always have to discount to all customers and if they put it out there, it may affect their opportunity to sell at full retail. Or, maybe no one discounts it. I'm not sure I have that answer yet. For the dealers, if you just don't want to post the acceptable discount range, could you e-mail it to me? Thanks!

[hike]

There are dealers that discount. Keep asking!

[Paul_Quadriom]

You mention that you talked to some dealers and think that you landed on the right group for the project, good for you, stick with them. You also mention that with the ongoing economy, there MUST be some discounting, so tell us, what would be an acceptable margin for us dealers these days??? Keep in mind that you want your dealer to still be in business in a year from now, you may need him again.

I don't see what good it would do to publicly post our cost on equipment besides starting a long series or ranting posts by C4 users. We all know it would always sound to hi for you.

I'm tempted to tell you what I told a client a few months back after he tried to squeeze so much out of a quote, there would of been almost no profit made on the equipment: "From the looks of things, maybe C4 is not the right solution for you if you think you're paying too much"

As slemay said, look at what you're getting in terms of quality of service when you pay the final bill instead of just making sure you're getting the best deal on each individual piece of equipment.

[thefred]

Paul,

I appreciate your position and I know that people do what they do for a living to EARN a living. If the answer is that no one discounts, then that is the answer and the end of the story and I'll accept that (and NOT say it costs too much). So, please don't lump me into the category of your client. I'm not suggesting that no profit be made on the equipment. I think the dealers should make something on the equipment. As an aside, I'm purchasing much more than just Control4 equipment from them. But, if the answer is that everyone discounts by 25%, that's a significant amount of money and it would leave me considering whether I should continue interviewing other dealers if this group would not discount. There are many other dealers in my area that I have not interviewed that I could still call upon. I don't know what an acceptable margin for dealers is because that is not something a consumer usually knows. All the consumer usually knows is what they are paying and that is why I am attempting to find out what the acceptable/fair/typical range is. I'm not trying to squeeze so much out of a quote as I am trying to be an educated consumer. That's why I'm here! Like I said in a previous post, I could certianly understand if dealers didn't want to post the discount range or pricing publicy, so I would appreciate it if you would e-mail it directly to me.

Thanks!

[akg4y]

From what I have heard for larger purchases with multiple touchscreens etc, you should be able to find 10-20% off MSRP.

[RyanE]

thefred,

Why is it you think that anyone on this forum would know what "a fair price" is for *any* equipment. A "fair price" is what the dealer you're comfortable with is charging you. I have a lot of contact with a lot of dealers, and I've never heard that any of them sell other than MSRP. Does that mean that none of them ever discount on product? Probably not, but it's not something that's typically discussed between dealers, and I'd be surprised if you found someone on the forums who could answer your question.

IMHO, Control4 is already a 'low-cost' solution, even at MSRP.

If you want to find out what discount off MSRP is available *to you*, you're going to have to do the legwork of contacting *all* the dealers who install in your area. That information may or may not apply to someone living somewhere else that doesn't have the same dealers available to them. There's no way anyone else in the forums can do your homework for you.

If you find dealers who are offering to sell equipment for less than MSRP, you're going to have to figure out for yourself if they're doing it because they're new and trying to get a foothold, if they're unsuccessful and are having to discount to win jobs, or if they're successful and make up the difference on labor. You have to make the choice of the dealer you're comfortable with, and you're willing to pay for.

RyanE

[alanchow]

Personally i find that if dealers are discounting then they are clutching at straws. Control4 is a system that requires expert knowledge and unfortunately there are different degree's of dealers out there.

At the end of the day its always comes down to 'you pay for what you get'.

[GoGo Delicious]

Hi,

Despite the current economic conditions, I doubt you will find any ESTABLISHED dealers offering discounts. Although we are a Crestron dealer, we have not offered any discounts off MSRP at all. We are booked through Spring 2009 and are starting to work on our Summer schedule. If you have been talking to established C4 dealers I am sure they are pretty much in the same boat. Just because the economy has slowed down a bit does not mean the GOOD dealers with GREAT programming skills need the sales enough to discount off MSRP.

NOW, you may find a C4 dealer who has not had a lot of experience and is a relatively new dealer who will discount in order to 1) gain the experience and 2) boost their sales volume. But again you get what you pay for. Going for a discount with a dealer who has very little programming, network and install experience and you will be adding to the post about how you C4 dealer did a bad job. There are a ton of post complaining about C4 dealer/installers/programmers on here. Take a look at my 1st post.

Dealers also shop clients. I will stick my neck out here because I know publicly C4 dealers (Actually any dealer, C4/Crestron/AMX) will not say this. A dealer also shops for clients JUST like a client shops for a potential dealer. Meaning that the dealer will CLOSELY listing to what the potential client is asking and what he/she is saying. If the client seems like they will be a difficult one, a dealer will 1) NOT entertain ANY type of discount and/or 2) Price themselves out of the bid. If a potential client ask about discounts then that says something about the client. Just as the potential client "Interviews" the dealer. The dealer will "Interview" the potential client.

When asking about a discount you should consider the following 1) Why should a dealer give a discount? Especially if you are a new client off the street with no loyalty. Instead of asking for a discount, pay the full MSRP and TROUGH loyalty to your C4 dealer EARN the discount(s). When you upgrade, add to or extend your C4 system, your C4 dealer will appreciate the call back and MIGHT consider a discount.

My 2 cents.

[GoGo Delicious]

I'm OK with the labor pricing. I'm more interested in the hardware pricing range.

C4 has MSRP pricing. Any dealer selling below that is violating their dealer agreement.

It's illegal for a Manufacture to set minimum sales prices. MSRP is that Manufacture SUGGESTED Retail Pricing. A manuf. CAN stipulate that a a dealer CAN NOT advertise below a certain price. BUT a Manufacture can NOT tell the dealer they can not sell below a certain price. Thats defiantly against the law.

[thefred]

The feeling I'm getting is that I'm upsetting people simply because I want to be an educated consumer. I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers. But, becoming educated is one of the things I would think this forum is for. As I said from the very beginning, if no one discounts off MSRP, then that is the answer. But, its not like purchasing something that you can readily find out the answer by searching for the item on the internet to compare. That's why I'm specifically asking people that sell and that have purchased this equipment. I'm surprised to hear you say that discounting is not something discussed by dealers. I would think they would want to know what their competitors/colleagues are charging. I generally like to know what people in my industry similarly situated to me charge for the same services I provide. And, I competely recognize that I'm not buying a toaster and that the labor and service part is probably the most important. (I have already learned that on here!) I am trying to find out a fair price. My definition of a fair price is exactly the same as yours. I'll be comfortable paying the dealer what I'm paying him once I feel more educated about the cost. I can't make that determination in a vacuum. If the consensus is that 17 people tell me that they are paying 25% off, why should I move forward with a dealer that won't discount? Maybe I would look to other dealers and find someone else. Maybe I would find out that no one in my area discounts. Or, maybe I wouldn't feel as comfortable with any of the dealers that discount and I would stay with this one. But, if no one discounts, then I wouldn't look any farther on that issue and I can move on and spend no more time interviewing other dealers. I'm not suggesting anyone do any leg work for me. Just asking what they charge or what they paid. I'm doing part of my legwork by posting here. From the minimal information I have gathered thus far. it appears that there is some discounting going on and now I'm just trying to find out the range. I'm just not so sure why its such a secret.

[neil12011]

I don't think you're ruffling feathers, but I don't think you're hearing what everyone is saying.

"If the consensus is that 17 people tell me that they are paying 25% off, why should I move forward with a dealer that won't discount?"

Sounds like the price is the most motivating factor for your situation. I don't think too many C4 dealers discount their products, but I'm sure there are some who do. I don't think there's any secret, just that most don't discount equipment, and the ones who do are usually online retailers. In reality, if your in the market for home automation, then price should be a secondary to the quality of work as with any company be it amx, crestron, C4, elan, etc. has the potential to wreak havoc if not installed right. Why don't you just negotiate with the dealer on final price? He may take off a bit for labor. Basically, if you find a dealer who does QUALITY work, then you are in good hands. You could spend alot to get your car looking like a showcar, or you could take it to maaco, they discount. In the end, "the bitterness of poor quality lasts longer than the joy of low prices". Shop based on quality of work, and dependability, you won't be dissapointed. Merry Christmas!

[thefred]

Thanks for all of your replies.

Neil, I am the first to agree that you get what you pay for. And I am not saying I think its too expensive or that price is my motivating factor. In fact, price is not the motivating factor. Its the last thing I am comparing. And, I am at the point of regotiating for a final price. That's why I came here looking for answers in that vein. I have already compared systems and dealers and am now down to pricing. Perhaps my statement should have better read "If the consensus is that 17 people tell me that they are paying 25% off, why should I move forward with a dealer that won't discount WITHOUT INQUIRY OF FURTHER DEALERS?" I'm not trying to buy it for free or with a coupon from Costco. I'm simply trying to find out relative pricing. Maybe I am looking for a shortcut. I don't want to call 15 dealers and go through the whole proposal process. That's why I'm just trying to find out is there is any discounting going on. If there's not, then that's the end of the story. And that would be fine too. But, if there are two equally qualified dealers and one is selling for less, wouldn't you at least use price as factor to consider if you had the same level of confidence in two dealers?

James, I understand that dealers shop clients too. But, to say that asking about discounts somehow says something about a client sounds a bit elitist to me. I have been referred to this dealer through my general contractor that I have had a realtionship with for years and who has done business with the dealer for 20 years. That's a pretty good reason to do good work AND to discount-so they can continue to get business from my general contractor. I'm sure there is more than one dealer in my area that does good work. If they want to keep getting referrals from my contractor, it would serve them best to offer the total package-excellent service and a good value. If all a dealer cares about is an open checkbook, maybe I'm not the right customer. But, if the dealer wants an educated consumer, then by the time I purchase I will be the right customer.

[GoGo Delicious]

James, I understand that dealers shop clients too. But, to say that asking about discounts somehow says something about a client sounds a bit elitist to me.

As Neil Said

Sounds like the price is the most motivating factor for your situation.

A dealer can pick up right away when a the most motivating factor, for the client, is price ESPECIALLY when you do not have a relationship with the dealer. Nothing "Elitist" about that.

I have been referred to this dealer through my general contractor that I have had a realtionship with for years and who has done business with the dealer for 20 years. That's a pretty good reason to do good work AND to discount-so they can continue to get business from my general contractor. I'm sure there is more than one dealer in my area that does good work. If they want to keep getting referrals from my contractor, it would serve them best to offer the total package-excellent service and a good value.

"Good Work" is the reason is why your GC referred you to the dealer. NOT because he offer discounts Hate to burst your bubble, but if your dealer DOES NOT offer you a discount I HIGHLY doubt the dealer will lose business from your GC. If his relationship is anything like my relationships with our GC's, it's a 2 way street. Even more so now. We have been throwing more work to selected GC (based on quality of work) then we are getting from GC's. Just because a GC does not give one of our clients a discount does not mean he is going to lose our business. What the GC charges is between the GC and his client.

If all a dealer cares about is an open checkbook, maybe I'm not the right customer. But, if the dealer wants an educated consumer, then by the time I purchase I will be the right customer.

It's NOT about an "Open Checkbook" but more of the client understanding the value. You seem to be a client that does not understand the value and thats the worst type of client to have. If you BELIEVE you understand the value of your C4 dealer and a C4 system then set yourself a total price (system & programming), aka budget, and tell your dealer what that budget is. Let him design a system around what you can afford or want to pay.

We have YET to run into any client that has a open check book in fact every project we have done this year has had a budget and keep in mind 1) we have accomplished 100% is the clients goals including their architects and interior designers and 2) we have done it WITHOUT a discount. and 3) all within or BELOW budget.

As far as an "Educated Consumer" goes those are the BEST type to have. 1) They require less hand holding 2) know the INTRINSIC value of the system, understand pice for install, programming and understand WHY we do not discount MSRP on hardware. It's the consumer that is not educated on the system they want to purchase that are asking about discounts and do not understand why labor/programming costs as much as it does.

If price is a concern why not go with Insteon, CQC, etc.? Because you want something more reliable such as C4? If so then there is a price to pay.

If you feel the price is to high then come up with a budget and shop a C4 dealer that can work with your budget. But don't get a quote from a C4 dealer and then ask for a discount. As Neil said

Sounds like the price is the most motivating factor for your situation.

[akg4y]

One of the things many of these responses are disregarding is volume as well. Discounting on someone who is buying one HC-300 and a few dimmers is one thing, but if someone is buying an HC-1000, 3 HC-300s, 3 10" touchscreens, multiple in-wall touch screens, 60 dimmers/switches/buttons, and an audio matrix among other things, REGARDLESS of how good the dealer is there should be some form of discount, IMO. Even if there is only one decent dealer in the area you could get a good dealer to fly a few hundred miles to make that sale if needed. I had the same question when I was doing my research, and got the same responses. The feathers get ruffled here to easily, but I think you have the information you need to go make an educated purchase now...

[shaneoneill]

Thanks for all of your replies.

I'm not trying to buy it for free or with a coupon from Costco. I'm simply trying to find out relative pricing. Maybe I am looking for a shortcut. I don't want to call 15 dealers and go through the whole proposal process. That's why I'm just trying to find out is there is any discounting going on. If there's not, then that's the end of the story.

fred

dismissing the msrp debate for a moment and just offering my opinion of c4's allure, i think all of us by virtue of being interested enough to frequent this forum shows we are motivated to find the best answers to our c4 questions, including price questions. the question you raise i think is fair - we all look for the best deal. c4 it is a very competent home system that wont break the bank and is a hard choice to overlook--even at msrp. the ability to have a fairly robust level of input into how the system works is probably the my biggest motivating factor. i dont know if c4 intended to market toward folks like me, but there is a whole new generation of homeowners who know how to navigate technical stuff somewhat and even though c4 uses a dealer approach, after installation i am able to maintain the system and tinker--without paying $$. those advantages make paying msrp from the dealer for equipment i need a good tradeoff. it keeps dealers in business and is a bottom line win for me. just in general, to give you a simple end user opinion, the advantages of reasonable prices and an accessible system make c4 a great option for me, and perhaps others like yourself.

[RyanE]

I apologize if my response came off at all angry. I'm certainly not angry with you, and think you're certainly within your rights to price shop for whatever you want to price shop for (parts/labor/package/etc.)

Perhaps my statement should have better read "If the consensus is that 17 people tell me that they are paying 25% off, why should I move forward with a dealer that won't discount WITHOUT INQUIRY OF FURTHER DEALERS?"

My main point is that there's very little way for you to compare apples to apples and have 17 people on here say they were paying 25% off. Dealers don't all work the same way. Some sell at MSRP, some may discount. It may (as others have said) depend on volume purchased. Some may have pre-set packages, that are all inclusive for a single price. It's just not likely that within this crowd, you're going to find a consensus of people who will say 'yes, I got X discount', and even if you do, it may or may not apply in your area.

I think if you're interested in finding out if there are discounts available from the dealers in your area, you're going to have to ask the dealers in your area.

That's why I'm just trying to find out is there is any discounting going on. If there's not, then that's the end of the story. And that would be fine too.

There certainly must be *some* discounting going on, but I'm guessing based on my dealings with Control4 dealers that there's not *much* discounting going on, but that's just my personal 'feel' for the situation.

I actually misspoke. Control4 dealers *do* compare pricing on the Official Control4 Dealer Forums, but every time I've seen it, they're typically comparing *labor* and/or *package* pricing. I've NEVER seen a discussion of dealers asking how much they charge over/under MSRP. I get the feeling that MSRP is pretty much standard pricing for a lot of them.

Good luck with your project.

RyanE

[thefred]

James, I appreciate the that you are taking the time to follow up with me, but you seem to be missing some significant points I am trying to make. Perhaps I'm not making myself clear. Let me try again. PRICE IS NOT THE MOST MOTIVATING FACTOR. You say that a dealer can pick up on that right away. Well, you're not so good at making that determination if you keep repeating that statement after everything I have already said. I have already said that if there is no discounting, then so be it.

Let me ask you this. If I have $100,0000 to spend and don't know what something should cost, how could I determine a fair price if I did not know what the market was charging? Should I spend $100,000 on something that others are paying $25,000 for simply because I told the dealer that I could spend $100,000? I just can't blindly say that controlling my lights is worth X or distributed sound is worth Y. That is why I'm doing this research. Perhaps you want me to leave it to you to say I want to be able to do X and you say it will cost Y and then I just blindly say OK. Its not about a budget. I can spend whatever I want on the system. I just don't know what it "should" cost, whatever "should" means. The point is that me just picking a number (with no basis) and asking can you do all of this for X seems really dumb to me if I don't know what it should cost.

For the most part, I'm going to skip the GC discussion because I only interposed that to provide some context about how I got to the dealer and that I'm just not someone coming off the street without a relationship. I'm am sure you'll argue that its not my relationship but that of the GC .... but that's not getting me any closer to the information I am seeking. But, I do think you're wrong about the fact that if the GCs customers started going elsewhere and getting quality work for less, the GC might start to send his customers elsewhere if they were getting the same quality for less.

You're on the verge of becoming insulting to say that I don't understand value. Just because I want to know what the going rate is for something somehow means I don't understand value? You don't want to be challenged. You just want people to pay your price or go elsewhere. That's fine. You are entitled to run your business the way you choose. But because someone asks questions about your price, that means that they are a bad customer who doesn't understand value?

Again, you're not reading too well or I'm not being clear. Did you see where I first spoke about labor? Its my second post near the top. It says "I'm OK with the labor pricing." How does that indicate that I don't understand why labor/programming costs as much as it does?

Let be honest here. You like customers that don't require hand holding (meaning they don't ask a lot of questions) and want to pay full retail price (open check book). Who doesn't want those kinds of customers? I hope there is a long string of open check books in your future.

But back to my original question, I guess your answer would be that you don't offer any discounts, right?