Using double-taps, what do you do with the default button action?

[jbs]

I'm thinking about using some double-taps in my programming, but have not done so before. Where six-button keypads are concerned it's pretty simple, but I'm curious how people prefer to handle double-taps on switches and dimmers.

Specifically, if I'm programming a light switch to use double- or triple-taps, and I'm doing so by incrementing a variable and then checking the count of that variable, what's the best way to handle the single-tap scenario, i.e. just using the light switch for it's associated light.

I prefer to just have it work normally, and in cases where the double-tap function would *include* the light whose switch I'm using it's no problem, but what if I want to use a double-tap to control something unrelated to the light itself.

The best solution I have so far is to let either the top or the bottom of the switch increment the variable, and if the light is off and I want to access the doubletap I'll use the bottom. If the light is on and I want to access the double-tap I'll use the top.

Is that the norm? Or is there a better idea out there that's eluding me.

In my office, for example, I have a task light and some general lights. The task light switch is 18 inches away, the room light switch is on the other side of the room. I like to be able to control the room lights from my desk, but I might not want the task light to turn on with them. If I made a bottom double-tap turn off the room lights and a top double-tap turn them on, then I'll always be turning on or off the task light with the first tap, and would then need to wait for the programming to run before turning the task light back on, or off.

I could have my dealer disassociate the switch from the load, but I don't like using programming alone to control lights, I prefer to leave the switches functional . . .

Anyhow, hope this makes sense and I look forward to hearing people's thoughts on how best to start into the brave new world of double-tapping. :D

--Jason

[RyanE]

Or is there a better idea out there that's eluding me.

Yep.

Add a freakin' 6-button keypad, and be done with it.

Have your electrician either add it to the existing set of dimmers in the box (with a larger j-box), or add a single-gang j-box at eye-height in the same stud bay, and drop the power down into the dimmer box.

If you're too squeamish about cutting into the drywall / lath and plaster / 100-year-old who-knows-what / electrical wiring, just use a desktop box with a 3 or 6-button keypad.

Problem Solved.

Seriously, I would *avoid* using a dimmer's buttons to trigger non-dimmer programming. With a 6-button or 3-button, you have dedicated buttons, and the keycaps can be labelled.

I only use a dimmer for taps in one situation at my house, where I have my basement lights getting left on, and don't want to go down the stairs to turn it off, the stair dimmer at the top can be double-tapped to turn on or off all the basement lights.

RyanE

[slemay]

We don't normally put double tap or triple tap programming on to regular switches - with one exception: bedrooms we'll put a double tap on the "OFF" button. This simple serves the purpose to turn ALL lights off connected to that room (ie: Master Bathroom, Closet etc...) - so when they walk out of the bedroom - a double tap turns all lights off. Outside of that - we leave double and tripple taps to 3 and 6 button controllers where it doesn't screw up normal programming (ie: lights turning on / off).

[jbs]

Ryan-

In an ideal world, where adding a 6-button switch did not cost $300 (once you factor in the equipment, dealer time, electrician time, etc) I'd still object in the sense that adding 6-button keypads everywhere I want additional functionality would not only bankrupt me but make my nice neat walls look like casino signs. :-)

I've been using this type of additional functionality from the beginning, and the only problem I've ever had with it was when the polling functionality changed in 1.6. I always programmed the "null tap" to do something, i.e. pressing the bottom of a light when it's off, or the top when it's on. Before the polling change (which I think was still a great change btw) those worked quite well. Since the polling change most of them stopped working because the light state changes before the switch can be polled. So, for example, turning off a light causes the light to go off in a couple of milliseconds, and by the time the system polls the light to find out it's state, it see that it's off, assumes you intended the "null tap" and does the other programming. That's why I'm thinking of moving everything to doubletaps.

But I'm a huge fan of using lightswitches for additional functionality. It's like having an extra 100 keypads spread around my house with no clutter and (admittedly this part's not great for C4) no additional expense.

Do you shy away from them due to confusion? Cause to me the other nice thing about double taps is they are less likely to be triggered inadvertently by someone who is not familiar with them. If someone in the family doesn't feel like learning about the programming, they can just treat everything like a normal switch. But if they want to learn what's programmed into things then they can make everyday tasks a bit easier.

--Jason

[jbs]

At the moment, I'm using doubletaps like this:

with perfect performance thus far . . .

[RyanE]

I don't shy away from them for my sake, but for the sake of my wife or someone else who might need to use the automation functionality of the house.

Once you get to a couple of dimmers (or more) in a 3 or 4 gang box, and you tell someone: OK, to turn off the basement lights, tap the bottom button of the middle switch. No, the garage door shutting is the *left* switch... etc.

Shawn's example (doing a double off to turn off all lights) seems intuitive, but once you start doing things more complicated than that, I think a 6-button does it much more cleanly, and easy for anyone to use.

I don't think anyone would confuse my 'Door 1', 'Door 2' buttons for my garage doors, or my 'Lights Off' button to turn off all the lights.

And of course, they don't cost me $300 to get installed. It's certainly a valid point.

RyanE

[jbs]

Now, all that said, when C4 releases the item I wrote about here:

http://www.c4forums.com/viewtopic.php?id=1312

I'll probably upgrade 5 ~ 10 of my light switches. It is, as far as I'm concerned, the killer app for retrofit or expansion of a C4 system -- a single-gang device with load control *and* keypad. To make it look similar to a 6-button you could maybe a long narrow vertical toggle switch on one side and three keypad buttons on the other. Or perhaps a left-right rocker taking the place of the top two buttons, and then 4 buttons underneath . . .

However it was designed, it would give someone the ability to simply replace an old-fashioned manual light switch with a C4 light switch and at the same time get keypad functionality. No drywall, no electrician. Easy, fast, perfect.

As impressed as I am with C4 (and I am!) I'm continually amazed that something like this does not exist. Particularly when dealing into old walls (plaster, unknown pipes and obstructions, old junction boxes) the opportunity to provide keypads without any painting, cutting or running of new wires seems like the ultimate user-friendly and dealer-friendly device.

</soapbox> :-)

[slemay]

Shawn's example (doing a double off to turn off all lights) seems intuitive, but once you start doing things more complicated than that, I think a 6-button does it much more cleanly, and easy for anyone to use.RyanE

Yeah - I ran out of spots on my 6 button a few months ago - so I started putting double and triple (even quad) taps onto a button that controls the living room... talk about confusing now.

Single Tap: Toggle Lights from OFF to On (lighting scene ON)

Double Tap: Put lights to lighting scene MOVIE (dim)

Triple Tap: Put lights to lighting scene ON

Quad Tap: Put just the Christmas lights in the room on

I keep messing this up - even today... I hit double when I mean triple and vice-versa. So I can't agree more - simple is best! One program on the button should be enough - and use logic when doing it - or no matter how technical you are - you'll forget - and certainly no one else will remember either!

[c44me]

I have up_to triple taps. I use them primarily for lights to go full/half/dim etc. Also have mapped music into the dim(s) with a time conditional. i.e. if morning ramp lights over period of time with music etc etc.

still tweaking these and tend to hit wrong button or wrong # of taps on occasion also.

I think when you've managed to confuse yourself with your own code you have really hit the C4 sweet spot

[CFUG]

Also using quad tap. Three sets of sequential "disco" lights and the off command @ tap 4. Always works well even when users are in "party mode".

[ILoveC4]

Quad taps? Now that is nuts. My wife would lose her mind.

[jbs]

The nice thing about multi-taps, though, is that you don't need to tell anyone about them. I have some things programmed into buttons where only I would likely use them, and as far as my wife is aware, the button just does its normal single-tap thing.

Since there's no reason that someone would be likely to press the button over and over within that short window, it's unlikely that she'd ever stumble upon that programming and be confused.

Of course, for all I know she's embedded programming in buttons that *I* don't know about . . . :-)

[ILoveC4]

How would double taps work on a dimmer? Wouldn't the second tap stop the light dimming? I see how it works on a switch, but how about a dimmer? I guess part of the double tap code would be to turn the dimmer off, right?

[CFUG]

^^I am in no way advocating this around little kids. They will surely find out about it and turn-on things that shouldn't be turned-on.

[jbs]

How would double taps work on a dimmer? Wouldn't the second tap stop the light dimming? I see how it works on a switch, but how about a dimmer? I guess part of the double tap code would be to turn the dimmer off, right?

A few ways I've found that this can work without interfering with the ramp:

1. If the normal function of the light itself is part of whatever you want in the doubletap function, then it would be exactly as you describe, you make the normal light function part of the code. For example, if you have lights 1, 2 and 3 and you could create a light scene which brings all 3 lights to 75%. Then you could program a doubletap on the TOP of switch 1 to execute that scene. If light 1 is off, the first tap would start to ramp it up, the second tap would stop the ramp, but within 1/4 second or so the light scene would execute. Same thing on the OFF side, a doubletap on the bottom of switch 1 could execute a scene which puts all three lights at 0%.

2. If, however, you're using a dimmer for something unrelated to the "core function" of said dimmer, then you can make either the bottom OR the top increment the same variable. Then if the light is on you could doubletap the top, if the light is off you could doubletap the bottom.

3. Lastly, in either of the two scenarios (light is or is not involved in the programmed action) you could make the window for the doubletap longer than the ramp time of the light, and then press the doubletap a bit more slowly. For example, if the ramp time is 100 ms and the doubletap window is 500 ms, then doubletapping >100ms apart will allow the full ramp up or down to happen unimpeded.

Hope one of those is useful!

-Jason

[ILoveC4]

How would double taps work on a dimmer? Wouldn't the second tap stop the light dimming? I see how it works on a switch' date=' but how about a dimmer? I guess part of the double tap code would be to turn the dimmer off, right?[/quote']

A few ways I've found that this can work without interfering with the ramp:

1. If the normal function of the light itself is part of whatever you want in the doubletap function, then it would be exactly as you describe, you make the normal light function part of the code. For example, if you have lights 1, 2 and 3 and you could create a light scene which brings all 3 lights to 75%. Then you could program a doubletap on the TOP of switch 1 to execute that scene. If light 1 is off, the first tap would start to ramp it up, the second tap would stop the ramp, but within 1/4 second or so the light scene would execute. Same thing on the OFF side, a doubletap on the bottom of switch 1 could execute a scene which puts all three lights at 0%.

2. If, however, you're using a dimmer for something unrelated to the "core function" of said dimmer, then you can make either the bottom OR the top increment the same variable. Then if the light is on you could doubletap the top, if the light is off you could doubletap the bottom.

3. Lastly, in either of the two scenarios (light is or is not involved in the programmed action) you could make the window for the doubletap longer than the ramp time of the light, and then press the doubletap a bit more slowly. For example, if the ramp time is 100 ms and the doubletap window is 500 ms, then doubletapping >100ms apart will allow the full ramp up or down to happen unimpeded.

Hope one of those is useful!

-Jason

Thanks Jason!