thefred Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 I am trying to get educated on the next phase of my project. I'm getting some information about needing a hot wire at each switch location and that there may not be hots at every switch (especially 2-ways, 3-ways and 4-ways) and there may be significant issues getting hot wires to every switch location.Can someone educate me on this issue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILoveC4 Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 I am not a dealer, but I have retro fitted both my houses with C4 switches. I have NEVER seen an instance where I didn't have enough wire. They have been able to swap out with no problems. This includes two way, three way, four way, and even five way setups.You'll love the lighting. Just make sure you have a professional electrician around to help if you're planning on installing this on your own. I found out the hard way it isn't as easy and straight forward as it seems. After you've had someone who really knows what there doing help with each situation a couple times it gets easier, but is still tricky sometimes.Electricity terrifies me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecodeman Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 Yeah after getting buzzed a couple times you learn to put a tester on EVERY wire regardless of color and turn off the breaker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILoveC4 Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 At least thats the idea. Some take a few more buzzings than others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thefred Posted April 2, 2009 Author Share Posted April 2, 2009 Thanks guys. I'm not going to be installing it but am trying to get and idea of what is invloved and the variables. If all the wires are there, then its simply installing the switches and then the binding and programming, right? Does there need to be a hot wire at each switch location? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILoveC4 Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 thefred...do you have any of the dimmers yet? If not, you can find the installation instructions on here somewhere.As I mentioned, I have never encountered a situation that needed additional wires. The dimmers have 5 wires on the back, but one is for use in a three way setup, and doesn't always get used. If memory serves me it is hot, load, ground, and neutral. The blue wire (the 5th one) is used to pass power onto the three way light (keypad), which I believe serves as the hot on the other end.The diagram lays it out pretty clearly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CFUG Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 OP, is the neutral switched instead of the hot? Some older jobs have it that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thefred Posted April 2, 2009 Author Share Posted April 2, 2009 I don't have any switches yet. But, I had asked my dealer to give me some ballpark pricing and he never got back to me. I talked to my GC this morning (who is the one that referred the delaer to me) and he mentioned something about the dealer telling him something about not being able to give me any general pricing ideas because of this issue of needing hot wires at all of the switches. Supposedly, if there were not hot wires at each switch, it was going to require additional wiring. I'm just trying to understand whether that is a real likelihood or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILoveC4 Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 I'm not an electrician, but I'm thinking if the switch works currently, the C4 switch will work. How can there be no hot? What would it switch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanE Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 I find it *very* unlikely that there isn't a HOT wire at every switch location.Now, neutral, if it was wired with 'switch-leg' wiring, it may or may not have a neutral at the dimmer location, but if it's been wired in the last 5 years, it's also unlikely to have been wired 'switch-leg'.No respect, but it sounds to me like you are in desperate need of an electrician with a clue.Control4 dimmers are wired the same as every other 3rd-party dimmer in existence. They have a ground, neutral, hot, and load wire. Control4 2-button keypads, which are typically used in a 3-way situation, only have a hot and neutral, and only need these wired up.RyanE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CFUG Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 ^Right, I'm just trying to figure out why the question even came up. I had a 120 yr. old house once where in some locations the neutral was switched the hot just ran right to the light. So, in that case, no black wire in the box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thefred Posted April 2, 2009 Author Share Posted April 2, 2009 ^Right, I'm just trying to figure out why the question even came up. I had a 120 yr. old house once where in some locations the neutral was switched the hot just ran right to the light. So, in that case, no black wire in the box.I think you have hit the nail on the head. My GC said something about sometimes the hot is run to the fixture instead of the switch. And his understanding from the dealer was that they needed to have the hot at the switch and that there may need to be some re-wiring to make that happen if the hot was not at the switch. Let me backtrack a bit. Can we confirm that we need the hot wire at the switch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILoveC4 Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 Yes...you need the hot wire at the switch.How old is your house? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thefred Posted April 2, 2009 Author Share Posted April 2, 2009 It only 14 years old. Could this be an issue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILoveC4 Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 That sounds strange to me, but again...I am not an electrician. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanE Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 Just because the power is run to the fixture first, does not mean you have switched neutral.Much more likely, you have 'switch leg' wiring, which means that you have a hot and a load wire in your switch box. No *neutral*.Control4 *dimmers* can be run in a switch-leg configuration, although they can only dim up to about 84% in that configuration.2-button keypads for doing 3- and 4-way configurations would require a neutral (won't work in a switch-leg configuration).Also, Control4 *switches* require a neutral in the box.RyanE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thefred Posted April 2, 2009 Author Share Posted April 2, 2009 Just because the power is run to the fixture first, does not mean you have switched neutral.Much more likely, you have 'switch leg' wiring, which means that you have a hot and a load wire in your switch box. No *neutral*.Control4 *dimmers* can be run in a switch-leg configuration, although they can only dim up to about 84% in that configuration.2-button keypads for doing 3- and 4-way configurations would require a neutral (won't work in a switch-leg configuration).Also, Control4 *switches* require a neutral in the box.RyanEOK. Then what if it is "switch-leg" and you don't have a neutral? You either have to use a *dimmer* and only have 84% dimming capability or add a neutral? Is that where they we're going? How difficult is adding a neutral? By the way, you all are great in helping educate me and I greatly appreciate it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanE Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 That is correct. The reason is, that the dimmer can't make the input HOT and the output LOAD the same (100%), because the electronics of the dimmer operate on the *differential* between the HOT and LOAD inputs.If it made the LOAD the same as the HOT, there would be 0V difference between them, and the dimmer electronics would have no voltage (or current, for that matter!) to run.How hard is it to add a neutral? That all depends on the construction of your house and how good your 'guys' are.I've added neutral before to a few circuits (basically by pulling a new romex from the light fixture down to the switch box), but it was in a room with an attic access above, so I had access to the fixture, as well as the top of the interior (no insulation) wall, which is pretty much 'best case'.RyanE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thefred Posted April 3, 2009 Author Share Posted April 3, 2009 That is correct. The reason is, that the dimmer can't make the input HOT and the output LOAD the same (100%), because the electronics of the dimmer operate on the *differential* between the HOT and LOAD inputs.If it made the LOAD the same as the HOT, there would be 0V difference between them, and the dimmer electronics would have no voltage (or current, for that matter!) to run.How hard is it to add a neutral? That all depends on the construction of your house and how good your 'guys' are.I've added neutral before to a few circuits (basically by pulling a new romex from the light fixture down to the switch box), but it was in a room with an attic access above, so I had access to the fixture, as well as the top of the interior (no insulation) wall, which is pretty much 'best case'.RyanEOK. Now I get it. That's where the apprehension is. If there is no neutral, and they need to add one, and then can't get to it without cutting sheetrock, its a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanE Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 Only if they don't know how to properly repair sheetrock.RyanE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thefred Posted April 3, 2009 Author Share Posted April 3, 2009 Only if they don't know how to properly repair sheetrock.RyanEWell, we just recently completed everything (else) and got all the dust out of the house, so I really don't want to cut any if I don't have to..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanE Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 Just a note, this is not limited to Control4 dimmers. This is a limitation with pretty much every electronic dimmer, neutrals being required are just par for the course, and because of that, most new homes are wired with 'standard' wiring to the switch locations, then a leg run to the fixture.Good luck with your project.RyanE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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