Dimmer/Switch and Keypad - 3-way question

[AJ_]

My dealer installed a dimmer and a 2-button keypad for a 3-way light. The dimmer is at the top of the stairs and the keypad at the bottom. The issue I am having is that when the C4 system is down for whatever reason (reboot, for example), the keypad doesn't work. Now this may not be an issue once a month or so but say my HC crashes and I need to get a new one. While I am waiting for my dealer, is this keypad is going to be non-functional?

To be specific, I switch off the kitchen lights (dimmer, 1-way [A]), then head to the bottom of the stairs, turn on the stairs light (keypad, 3-way [b1]) and then walk up to the second floor. On the second floor, I switch off the stairs light (dimmer, 3-way [b2]) and head to the master bedroom light (MB foyer light keypad [C1]). If the system is down, I have to walk up the stairs and into the bedroom [MB foyer dimmer [C2]] in darkness.

This may not seem to be a big deal but if you consider all the 3-way switches I have in the common areas of the house, it does create a terrible experience. Along the normal paths - kitchen to master bedroom, kitchen to front door, master bedroom to front door - there are a number of 3-way switches and I'm afraid this is going to be a pita at some point.

Is there any way around this? Does using a switch instead of a keypad solve the issue? I apologize if this has been answered previously but I could not locate an answer yet.

Thanks,

AC

[pharmdsmith]

You are correct, if your system is down the 2/3/6 button keypads will be down. The switch/dimmers will still work because they are directly carrying the load. Yes, it is a pain if your system is down, that's why I couldn't imagine moving all my switch/dimmers in a closet. While it looks neater, it would royally stink when the system goes down.

[henniae]

One thing I do when I install multi-way C4 switch configs is locate the dimmer in the most used part of the house that the light is used in.

Example: I have a 3-way switch for the light from my upstairs down to my basement. I have the dimmer at the top of the stairs and the KP at the bottom of the stairs.

[AJ_]

Thanks for the prompt response(s).

So if I use a switch instead of a keypad, it works. What I could do is use dimmers and switches and then throw in additional 3/6 button keypads where necessary. This way, all lights are functional from all locations and the keypads are available for scenes/other functions (which is really what they are for anyway).

@Alan - you will have this issue while coming up the stairs

I think I'll have to get one of those LED keychains.

AC

[thecodeman]

You can't use two dimmers or two switches to control the same load though. They have to be keypads...

[AJ_]

Doh! back to square one.

[henniae]

@Alan - you will have this issue while coming up the stairs

Yes. There is no way around it with the way C4 multi-way lighting works. I just try to minimize the issue by putting the dimmer in the most used spot.

I have had C4 in my house for over 2 years and really have not had that any problems with not being able to control the lighting. I don't have that many multi-way lighting controls in my house though.

If the controller malfunctions and stops working you are SOL. But think about it, there are many systems in your house that could cause the same level of annoyance, HVAC, refrigerator are a few examples.

[RyanE]

It's definitely a limitation of a centrally-controlled lighting system. You'd have the same issue with a Lutron system, where your loads are being controlled with a Lutron keypad (or Vantage, or LightTouch, or pretty much anyone).

If the controller quits working and you were to decide to go with something else (for some reason), your main option would be to replace the 3-way devices (dimmer and keypads) with actual 3-way switches again.

Sorry.

RyanE

[ILoveC4]

If you're at all handy with electrical then you should be able to move the location on the dimmers vs. the keypad without pulling any new wire.

[AJ_]

This is a little disappointing. But it is what it is, I guess.

I'm sure this can be solved with updated firmware. C4 needs to bind a keypad/switch with the dimmer in a 3-way configuration so that they can communicate independently of a controller (maybe only in the event of a missing controller). It seems like the keypad currently signals the controller to turn the dimmer on. Not sure if the communication is two-way but if it is then a "not available" signal should cause the keypad to directly communicate with the bound dimmer.

maybe someday soon C4...

[ILoveC4]

How would you speak with someone who spoke a foreign language if your translator didn't show up?

That may not be the best analogy, but the controller is what runs zigbee, and all communications go through the controller...it calls the shots. The fact that they are bound together is known only by....the controller!

I agree, it would be better if it worked differently, but I don't see a firmware update changing this. Of course, I could be wrong....

[tigrzeye]

Also each switch, keypad, or dimmer would then have to be able to maintain programming individually. This would mean need of memory and processor in each. Not to mention the individual programming contained in one switch etc. would need to be able to interact with the programming of another device.

[thecodeman]

Keypads don't have any physical way to control a load like a switch or dimmer does. To get this functionality it would require a new design entirely.

[BradKas]

It's definitely a limitation of a centrally-controlled lighting system. You'd have the same issue with a Lutron system, where your loads are being controlled with a Lutron keypad (or Vantage, or LightTouch, or pretty much anyone).

If the controller quits working and you were to decide to go with something else (for some reason), your main option would be to replace the 3-way devices (dimmer and keypads) with actual 3-way switches again.

Sorry.

RyanE

I assume when you compare c4 lighting to Lutron you refer to Ra or Ra2. This problem will not happen if the main repeater loses power, as the devices talk directly to each other, and to the main repeater, which 'confirms' commands have been sent and received. The only functionality you would lose are the timed events and integration buttons actually stored on that repeater.

In my opinion c4 just lacks the ability to be centralized with it's goofy restrictions on 3 way switching, and 99% reliability which does not cut it when dealing with light.

[AJ_]

Yes, this is unacceptable in my opinion. Kinda like no copy-paste functionality on an iPhone 2G. I posted this on the C4 facebook page and all I got was a 'Thanks for your comment'.

I believe this is an incomplete design and changing the design may not be a bad thing, especially if it gets up time closer to 100% as far as lighting is concerned.

[RyanE]

I was actually referring to their 'traditional' HomeWorks system. If you have centralized HomeWorks lighting, and your processor dies, keypads can't send directly to dimmer packs.

Of course, the likelihood of a Lutron processor dying is pretty darn low, because a) they've been doing this a Looong time, they have good engineering and they're only doing lighting for the most part, and much simpler than a full automation system, so there's less points of failure.

RyanE

[BradKas]

Yeah I did think of that while writing my response, but it's really like apples and oranges comparing a wireless control system using RF to a central processor hard wired system.

Anyways, in the end, to each their own.

[AJ_]

Yup. This doesn't mean I am not getting more light switches

I am thinking of getting a UPS so my controller will always be up (unless I lose power for more than an hour or two.

[henniae]

Yup. This doesn't mean I am not getting more light switches

I am thinking of getting a UPS so my controller will always be up (unless I lose power for more than an hour or two.

It is wise to get a UPS for your C4 controller(s). I would recommend that all your critical network gear also be on that UPS.

Additionally, whole house surge suppression is a good idea too.

[ILoveC4]

+1 for a good UPS. I don't consider it optional.