Wiring 3-way switch with 2 button keypad

[xc420]

It should not be connected to common in both locations.

Okay with two way switches - in one location common is connected to hot, in the other location common is connected to the load. Common doesn't mean what you think it does. It means that basically it's the center part of the toggle.

In Box 1 common is connected to hot. When you flip the switch in the ON position, it sends power down a traveler. When you flip the switch in the OFF position it sends power down the other traveler. That way you can turn power on or off from either location.

In Box 2 common is connected to the load. When you flip switch in the ON position one of the traveler screws has continuity with common, when you flip the switch in the OFF position the other screw has continuity with the common screw.

The black dots in this diagram are commons

http://ezdiyelectricity.com/images/wiringdiagrams/switches/3-way-switch-wiring-diagram.jpg

[xc420]

They have all the blacks combined (hot wire is one of these) then pig tail it to the common wire.

Yes exactly this is the Hot. You need to find what is connected to the red wire from Box 2.

It is probably in box 1 connected to a black wire (load) that goes to the lights.

In box 1 - the white wire that you took off the old switch needs to go to the rest of the white wires (neutrals) and the black wire that you took off the old switch needs to go to the black wires that are hot. Then your keypad should work.

For the dimmer - C4 dimmer White wire to the rest of the white wires (neutrals), C4 dimmer black wire to hot, C4 dimmer red wire to load (take the red wire off that's going to box 2 and cap it), green to ground, and don't use the blue wire. Control4 doesn't need travelers.

[Jeffrey]

This is making sense. I am working all weekend, but I will try to work on it as soon as I can.

Thanks,

Jeff

[Jeffrey]

I believe I have the wiring correct, but the dimmer just shows a solid green light in both LED's? I tried the different taps 9-9-9 13-4-13, etc but nothing seems to help. The dimmer does not turn the light off and on. The traditional switch in box 2 does turn the light off and on. Any ideas? Is the dimmer stuck in some way?

I was able to identify it in composer, but it still doesn't do anything.

Thanks,

Jeff

[ILoveC4]

I believe I have the wiring correct, but the dimmer just shows a solid green light in both LED's? I tried the different taps 9-9-9 13-4-13, etc but nothing seems to help. The dimmer does not turn the light off and on. The traditional switch in box 2 does turn the light off and on. Any ideas? Is the dimmer stuck in some way?

I was able to identify it in composer, but it still doesn't do anything.

Thanks,

Jeff

You shouldn't have a dimmer and a switch on the same circuit. You should have a dimmer or switch, and then keypads at the other locations.

[TDAWG]

Jeffery - Just install a C4 switch or dimmer to control the light and carry the 120V constent power to your key pad location and just simply intall the key pad and program the fucntions you would like the key pad to do.

[nascent]

Hopefully this helps and doesn't confuse you more.

It sounds like you know what's going on for the wires. You know which black is your power (line) and which is going to your light (load). You can verify this by having the whites of those two blacks marretted (wire nut) together and just tapping the power to the load while the circuit is on (hot/live). Do this with the all the other wires at box 1 and 2 separated and if the light turns on and off as you touch them together, you will have verified that this 3 way was wired with the line and load to the same box. If not, those wires aren't what you thought they were, or else the 3-wire was ran to the light first and some fancy (ie. annoying) wiring was done within the light junction box.

If it does work that way, then you can put your dimmer and keypad at either side. The easiest is to put the dimmer where all the wires are and connect the power (black) to the dimmer black and the load (black) to the dimmer red and the dimmer white to all the whites. Make sure the black of the 3-wire is connected to the power and the white to the rest of the whites and the red to nothing, just fold it into the box.

At the keypad side, just connect the black to black, white to white, and the red to nothing.

If you want the keypad and dimmer locations swamped, you connect the load to the red of the 3-wire, then all the blacks together and whites together for the keypad, and for the dimmer side, red to red, black to black, white to white.

If that doesn't make sense, let me know.

[Jeffrey]

Hopefully this helps and doesn't confuse you more.

It sounds like you know what's going on for the wires. You know which black is your power (line) and which is going to your light (load). You can verify this by having the whites of those two blacks marretted (wire nut) together and just tapping the power to the load while the circuit is on (hot/live). Do this with the all the other wires at box 1 and 2 separated and if the light turns on and off as you touch them together, you will have verified that this 3 way was wired with the line and load to the same box. If not, those wires aren't what you thought they were, or else the 3-wire was ran to the light first and some fancy (ie. annoying) wiring was done within the light junction box.

If it does work that way, then you can put your dimmer and keypad at either side. The easiest is to put the dimmer where all the wires are and connect the power (black) to the dimmer black and the load (black) to the dimmer red and the dimmer white to all the whites. Make sure the black of the 3-wire is connected to the power and the white to the rest of the whites and the red to nothing, just fold it into the box.

At the keypad side, just connect the black to black, white to white, and the red to nothing.

If you want the keypad and dimmer locations swamped, you connect the load to the red of the 3-wire, then all the blacks together and whites together for the keypad, and for the dimmer side, red to red, black to black, white to white.

If that doesn't make sense, let me know.

Hi Nascent,

I originally installed the dimmer as you described in your second paragraph. I get power to the dimmer, but the dimmer has no control over the load. I also tried to figure out the wires by touching the hot wire to the travelers from box 1 (one red traveler and one black traveler). Depending on which way the switch is toggled in box 2, the lights turn on when touching the hot to either the red traveler or the black traveler. In box 2, I only have one 14-3 wire that attaches to the switch with the red wire attached to the common and the black and white attached to the travelers. I think my configuration is similar to the diagram I attached, with the exception that my red wire in box 2 goes to the common whereas in the diagram the black wire goes to the common.

I was reading in the best practices section http://www.c4forums.com/viewtopic.php?id=240 about someone who had a similar problem and he was advised to install as follows:

Top box

0. Hook all the bare copper grounds together to the green wire on the C4 dimmer

1. Hook white wire from the C4 dimmer, the lines and the white wire going to the box that has the light

2. Hook the black wire from the lines (source) to the black wire on the C4 dimmer

3. Hook the blue wire from the C4 dimmer to the red wire that goes to the box for the light

Middle box

0. hook all the bare copper grounds together

1. Hook all the white wires together and connect this to on terminal of the light fixture

2. Hook the black wire from the top box above to the other terminal of the light fixture

3. Cap the black wire going to the bottom box. We will not use this wire.

4. Hook the red wires together.

Bottom Box

0. Hook the bare ground wire to the green on the C4 2 button key pad

1. Hook the white wire to the white wire on the C4 2 button key pad

2. Cap the black wire, as we will not use it

3. Hook the red wire to the black wire on the C4 2 button key pad

I don't see where to attach the red load from the dimmer in this situation though? So in my situation I am confused about the red and black travelers that leave box 1 and what to do with them. I hope you can understand my messy explanation! Thanks!

Jeff

[nascent]

If you hooked up the dimmer as described with the wire you thought was the light (load) and it gave power to the dimmer but didn't control the light, then the black wire you thought went to the light, doesn't go to the light.

If you're willing to give this one more try, please do the following:

-Disconnect both switches/dimmers for that light from box 1 and 2

-make sure all the whites in box 1 are still together

-take the black wire that you know is power and touch it to each of the remaining black wires and if the light turns on, note which wire that was

-if none of the black wires turn on the light, try the red wire from the 3-wire

-report back what you discover

Remember, you can only seriously (possibly fatally) harm yourself if you make the mistake of letting the current/voltage go from one hand to the other through your heart. Keep that in mind as you work to never have one hand touching any part that could be live and have the other hand touching anything grounded or the neutral (usually the white wires).

If you are unsure of these steps or uncomfortable, then please bring in an electrician to take a look. A good electrician should have it figured out for you in ten minutes.

C4 3-way lighting is nothing like conventional 3-way lighting. All you're really trying to do is hook up the dimmer like a normal single switch light, so you just need power and neutral to power the light (ignoring power stealing) and the wire that goes to the light to connect to the red of the dimmer. For the keypad, all you need to have is power and neutral. It doesn't even have to be from the same circuit as the dimmer. When I wired my brother's house for 3-way and 4-way switching, I didn't use any 3-wire at all. The true "3-way" occurs in the programming instead.

[DrDSL]

This is what I give to my electricians

[Jeffrey]

If you hooked up the dimmer as described with the wire you thought was the light (load) and it gave power to the dimmer but didn't control the light, then the black wire you thought went to the light, doesn't go to the light.

If you're willing to give this one more try, please do the following:

-Disconnect both switches/dimmers for that light from box 1 and 2

-make sure all the whites in box 1 are still together

-take the black wire that you know is power and touch it to each of the remaining black wires and if the light turns on, note which wire that was

-if none of the black wires turn on the light, try the red wire from the 3-wire

-report back what you discover

Remember, you can only seriously (possibly fatally) harm yourself if you make the mistake of letting the current/voltage go from one hand to the other through your heart. Keep that in mind as you work to never have one hand touching any part that could be live and have the other hand touching anything grounded or the neutral (usually the white wires).

If you are unsure of these steps or uncomfortable, then please bring in an electrician to take a look. A good electrician should have it figured out for you in ten minutes.

C4 3-way lighting is nothing like conventional 3-way lighting. All you're really trying to do is hook up the dimmer like a normal single switch light, so you just need power and neutral to power the light (ignoring power stealing) and the wire that goes to the light to connect to the red of the dimmer. For the keypad, all you need to have is power and neutral. It doesn't even have to be from the same circuit as the dimmer. When I wired my brother's house for 3-way and 4-way switching, I didn't use any 3-wire at all. The true "3-way" occurs in the programming instead.

Nascent, thanks for the reply. The hot and 2 other black wires in box 1 are all bundled together with a pigtail coming off and going to the switch currently. I am still willing to isolate the hot from the other black wires and try what you described if you think touching the hot to one of these will show me which is the load.

How would I determine if the load is actually in box 2? And with only one 14-3 cable coming into box 2, is it possible that box 2 actually does contain the load?

DrDSL thanks for the diagram, I will check it out.

Thanks,

Jeff

[nascent]

Nascent, thanks for the reply. The hot and 2 other black wires in box 1 are all bundled together with a pigtail coming off and going to the switch currently. I am still willing to isolate the hot from the other black wires and try what you described if you think touching the hot to one of these will show me which is the load.

How would I determine if the load is actually in box 2? And with only one 14-3 cable coming into box 2, is it possible that box 2 actually does contain the load?

DrDSL thanks for the diagram, I will check it out.

Thanks,

Jeff

It's possible if the 14-3 from each switch went to the light and some different connections were made there. For instance, the red in box 2 could go to the light and the other 2 would be travellers. It's not how I would do it, but I've seen stranger...especially when they wire the 14-3s to the light instead of using a 14-3 to join the switches.

Is it possible to open up the light and see what's going on for wiring there?

To test the 2nd box for the load wire, you'd need to send power over to that box (connect the red or black from the 14-3 in box 1 to the power in box 1 and see if you get power on any of the wires in box 2)

I'm going to re-read your post and look at your pictures again to see if I can figure it out from what you've already provided.

[Jeffrey]

Ok I opened up the light to see how the connections are made.

Box 1 light Box 2

Black White

Red Black

White White

black Red

There is also another line coming in that goes to the second light in the hallway the black of this light is bundled with the black and red connection and the white from this light is bundled with the other whites.

So this looks to me like the load is in box 2. How would I get the load to box 1 to make the connection for the dimmer?

Thanks,

Jeff

[nascent]

Ok I opened up the light to see how the connections are made.

Box 1 light Box 2

Black White

Red Black

White White

black Red

There is also another line coming in that goes to the second light in the hallway the black of this light is bundled with the black and red connection and the white from this light is bundled with the other whites.

So this looks to me like the load is in box 2. How would I get the load to box 1 to make the connection for the dimmer?

Thanks,

Jeff

Ha. So it actually is wired like the example I mentioned it could be to allow for the load to be in box 2.

You can rewire things to have the dimmer and keypad in either box. I'll explain a way you can connect the wires that lets you choose which way you'd prefer. You can even switch it later on.

In box 1:

wire all blacks together (including black from 14-3)

wire all whites together (including white from 14-3)

do nothing with the red wire from 14-3 in this box yet

In the light:

wire all blacks together (excluding the ones going to both of the lights)

wire all whites together (including the ones going to the lights)

wire the reds to the blacks going to the lights

Now, whichever switch box you're putting the keypad into, put a wire nut onto the red and fold it up into the box. The black and white of the keypad go the black and whites of the box, respectively. The one that gets the dimmer, put black to black, white to white, red to red. If you ever decide to switch, just trade what you did for the reds.

If you'd like more clarification, please quote the part that's confusing and I'll try to rephrase it.

[Jeffrey]

Thanks Nascent! Your solution worked great!

Jeff

[nascent]

Glad to be able to help out.