Integrator "pinch hitter"?

[turls]

Do C4 dealers ever directly hand off various tasks to other integrators on a temporary basis for various reasons, like if the programming is too complex or if they are having trouble getting time to finish a project? Almost like a subcontract relationship. Of course it would be important for the primary relationship to keep detailed logs of any changes made to the system. I'm sure there are other downsides as well. In my case, I'd be looking to have the "pinch hitter" connect remotely to my system.

I'm in a situation where at this point I'd like to keep my primary relationship with my C4 dealer, partially because I'm in the middle of too many other non-C4 projects to switch now (besides being in a rural area where it is hard to get integrators to work with me at all), but the writing is on the wall that he is either unable or unwilling to finish some items that have been open for months. Of course, some of the open items would include additional installation tasks, but I'm thinking if the programming side was handed off maybe that would help the dealer concentrate on the installation. Maybe that is an unreasonable expectation.

I know there are other alternative solutions to the problem, but I think this could potentially keep everybody happy, at least long enough to get through the bulk of the initial flood of projects.

[nikon]

Many integrators I know use subcontractors for some or all of their jobs. I have also heard of companies handing off the jobs to another firm. The handing off of a project is less common and from what I have seen in a few cases usually indicates the end of the clients relationship with the original firm.

The installation and programming can be separate tasks but that is assuming the project was designed properly and connection diagrams etc were given to the install team. I did an installation like this just over Christmas and it went quite smoothly. The installer had no concept of how Control4 worked but the system install was a success due to proper design, engineering and programming. All the installer needed was the connection diagrams and all was good.

[rgulley]

I am building a new home. This will be the 3rd in 6 years. The home I built 6 years ago, I hired a company to install distributed a/v. Not a C4, but Nuvo I do believe. It took me 6-8 months of hounding and never could get them to finish. I sold the home and do not know what became of it. Audio worked, except for one room, and no disributed vidio.

I started the next home and hired a group that seemed much better. They used Netstreams for distributed a/v. Found out they were never a dealer, and did not know how to program the system. Did enough programming, to make a few things run, but again, nothing was done right.

Now in the home I am building, I studied the wiring and so forth. Found a man I hired as a consultant on the wiring and what to buy but does not know programming. Hired another company to program system (that the consultant knows) with the agreement it is a bid job for what I want, and NO-ONE gets one red penny till 30 days after system is programmed and I use it for that period.

Still in the middle of project. So far, so good!

[CFUG]

No money up-front ehh? Those guys are giving the farm away.

[rgulley]

No, I paid for the equipment, which has their markup in it. BUT, I am paying for programming when system is operational as I was quoted. I am self-employed as well. HVAC trade. When system is running as promised, only then will you pay for it.

With the last two homes and problems with programmers, why should I pay up front for that? If you are as good as you say you are, you should have no problem collecting on the back side. The last two I was paying for their training. Training is on the programmer. Thats why everyone gets a respectable fee for programming. I have no problem with that. As a consumer, I have to have a piece of mind as well.

Not trying to be cocky or anything, just some bad taste in mouth over the last two.

[CFUG]

I understand your past. Typically, a contract has payment terms to protect both sides. 40 up front to cover costs, 10 or 20 percent out back upon signoff. You know this. I don't see why this should change. You said nobody gets paid anything until 30 days after you use it. I'm glad I'm not your dealer.

[turls]

This has given me some ideas. I've bought a ton of equipment at close to MSRP cost. I've paid for a lot of programming already. I think from here on out I will say that I am not paying for programming until the system works correctly according to the scope of work (which unfortunately is another thing that was not done up front). At first, the whole house was torn up, and it was hard to estimate timeframes. Now the entire project should be done in 2-3 months. If the dealer wants language to protect him if it is my fault or another contractors' fault the house isn't done in a certain timeframe I am ok with that. But I don't feel bad asking for everything to be done before payment otherwise. There is hardly anything I can think of that would prevent the majority of the C4 installation work to be done on this house in the next 4-6 weeks.

[nikon]

It is reasonable and common for you to hold back an amount to be paid on the completion of the project when the system is fully functional. The thing is, the scope of work is what is used to judge when the job is complete and from the sounds of it one doesn't exist in your project.

There should also be a set of milestones in the project and amounts to be paid out once each milestone is reached. If you have something like this you can easily say to the integrator, "This hasn't been completed so why are you asking me for more money at this point?"

The biggest thing for clients and integrators is to have a mutual understanding of all stages and aspects of the job, expectations, and payments etc.

You should probably have a sit down with whomever you are working with and talk about what is remaining to be done on the project, where the projects is deemed to be complete, time-frame and how to handle remaining payments. I have seen final hold backs from 5 - 20% depending on the job. Around 10% is the most common.

[CFUG]

turis, I'm curious, what level of programming are you dealing with that possibly another dealer would have to come in to assist?

[turls]

Without getting into too many specifics, as I don't want to burn any bridges if he checks here, contractors are in their own little world here and it is very uncommon for standard contracts because of lack of competition and various other reasons. So my C4 dealer has basically piggy backed on the lack of urgency the other contractors have shown, probably because most of his customers do hold him to specifics. The standard adage is true, talk is cheap. I am going to try to pin him down as much as I can on what the options are to finish things up. Thanks for everybody's input.

[CFUG]

^OK man, good luck and stick to your guns. Just keep us in the loop if things get hairy.

[CFUG]

No, I paid for the equipment, which has their markup in it. BUT, I am paying for programming when system is operational as I was quoted. I am self-employed as well. HVAC trade. When system is running as promised, only then will you pay for it.

With the last two homes and problems with programmers, why should I pay up front for that? If you are as good as you say you are, you should have no problem collecting on the back side. The last two I was paying for their training. Training is on the programmer. Thats why everyone gets a respectable fee for programming. I have no problem with that. As a consumer, I have to have a piece of mind as well.

Not trying to be cocky or anything, just some bad taste in mouth over the last two.

Good luck to you too.

[turls]

Still going round and round with this guy, no obvious cutoff to make a clean break at the moment...so looking for more advice...If there is no contract, no scope of work, no deliverables, no timeframes, nothing really except invoices breaking out equipment and labor, what leg do either the contractor or the end user have to stand on to enforce anything that is mentioned in most of these dealer interaction threads? In my mind, he has liens to fall back on, I have only the fact that I haven't paid him 100% of the bill and I may be able to shortpay him when I inevitably have to get another dealer in to clean up the mess.

Its on the verge of getting ugly since he is now sitting on dimmers that he needs to replace since he should have done ELV for some LED lighting in the first place (the wrong dimmers are contributing to hum/interference in the showcase room in the house, besides not allowing proper control of the lighting). I've had patience with the process up to this point with him piddling around with a few things at a time every month or two, since he was making some progress. But that patience is not being rewarded.

[alanchow]

We subcontract quite a bit to other dealers or even get called out by customers. Mainly due to inexperience of the initial programmer. A lot of customers get a bit irrate because they need to pay us to fix what should have been programmed correctly in the first place but at the end of the day it always comes back to finding the right dealer initially.

Think I fixed up a good 6 jobs last year from other dealers around Australia.

[turls]

Exactly, I'm not going to be _that_ customer and be bullied into paying the full initial bill because I know there is going to be cleanup. The problem is I want to get every last ounce out of the current dealer that I can because what documentation, etc. they provide me is going to contribute towards as clean a break as possible so I don't pay twice for more than I should have to. The bigger problem is with my limited visibility into the system (only HE) and lack of knowledge of initimate inner-workings, I don't really know how far I am from the system it should be at the price point I've paid.

Thank you for your insight Alan. I am about ready to insist on some type of mutually-beneficial break that includes him working with a more competent and experienced dealer.

[berazafi]

As Alan said it all comes down to finding the right dealer. We have also done some fix up work and I would say the 2 things that (if you are doing a larger job) should be asked?

1. Have you done similar in scope to this?

2. Are you going to Plan/Design, Test and Build my system before it comes to my house?

All our jobs are programmed, prebuilt and tested before even getting to the job site. (as I am sure Alan's are as well). Basically the minute the things are connected to the pre-built rack they are functional.

If your dealer is doing this chances are you are not going to end up with problems.

On the other hand if your dealer comes with a bunch of unopened boxes you should be asking some questions.

As for subcontracting it can be done, however I would in our case we have on occasion sub contracted the actual physical installation of product. We would not subcontract the programming or design.

If your dealer is subcontracting the design or programming then they probably are not suited to the project although I personally would be glad to see someone do that as opposed to getting in over there head.

[turls]

Understood and thanks. I have no idea if the dealer will be open to subcontracting or not. He should have subcontracted out the low voltage, and he needs help on some of the more complex setup. He also needs to hire a project manager. He is in "over his head" but I think it is salvagable, its just a matter of at what point my patience ran out and/or he started making unreasonable demands. I'm at the point he has forced my hand because he thinks he is owed more money before he fixes/continues anything else on the project and I could see spending what I have left on his invoices to clean up the project. So he isn't getting any of that money until I am assured there is a plan to complete things successfully, with him, without him or with him going into some type of partnership with someone who can tackle what is left.