rf9000

9 minutes ago, msgreenf said:

yep. Keypads or keypad dimmers are your best option. Along with the room control driver you can very easily program buttons to do volume up volume down play pause play specific playlists etc

But in rooms that don't have KPDs, you recommend putting programmable in those rooms too? This is tough because some of those rooms I'm not doing C4 lighting in. So I would have to switch those rooms to a double gang box and add programmable keypads in there. Kinda looks odd? What about that touch screen idea, not a good idea? I can buy four of the previous generation touch screens for the price of one keypad

All,

So I have a general question for you. In the primary rooms in the house (kitchen, great room, rec room. master bed, etc.) I'm going to have T3 touchscreens for music control, etc. but there are also isolated speaker zones in what I call secondary rooms, such as the laundry room, kids' bedrooms, etc that all have dedicated stereo speaker zones in them. For these areas, what do you recommend tfor music control without having to go to a touchscreen? I know this all can be done with iPhones and iPads, but it seems like there should be a solution for a quick button press or something like that. Is the solution to throw a programmable KP in each of these areas? Some of these secondary rooms will have KPDs in them already so do we make one of the buttons turn on a radio station, etc in that room? It would be too costly to add T3s to each room. I had thought about getting the previous generation touch screens just for these secondary rooms, but dont know if that is a good idea either. My main T3 screens would be running the new software, where these previous generation touch screens would be running the older software? Is that possible? Also, thought about mounting like iPad mini 2nd gen on the wall too and just have them always on the C4 app. Throwing around some ideas

Please help. So in this scenario, Its wiring a new home and trying to figure out what to tell electrician. I read the C4 configurations but don’t make sense. As shown below, what and where does the neutral come from on the AUX? Do we just wire it like a normal 3 way or 4 way and we might have extra wires but be fine?

5 minutes ago, C4 User said:

Yes. Aux (or Keypads).

So in a 4 way situation, it would work with an APD and two AUX? Or a KPD and two AUX?

I have a quick question on 3 way and 4 way lighting loads. In a 3 way, I know that an APD or a KPD can be used with an AUX. How does this work for a 4 way? Is it an APD or KPD with (2) AUX ?

To all,

I have a quick question. So on a TV connected to an AVR, how do you guys solve the issue these days with TV apps and the native sound coming from the TV, not the AVR? Of course anything connected to the AVR will output to the AVR, but what about a TV that is just connected via HDMI where you want to watch Netflix but still have all sound play through AVR? I know that some use Toslink from TV back to AVR, but my distance is like 30 feet and I dont think Toslink is very reliable at 30ft. Do I just use a Cat6/Toslink converter, or do you guys have better solution out there for this? Any cables that I dont have to use a converter with that can handle distances over 30ft? TVs are all Samsung smart TVs

On 5/15/2020 at 9:48 AM, lippavisual said:

Most Tv’s use an optical output.  Some have headphone output.

Best wire to run would be a Cat6 so then you can choose a balun that works with the TV you’ve got.

If using HDBT extenders for video, some of them also have a return path built in for optical. 

Ok thanks. Cat 6 is easy. I looked at digital optical cables but they say max length on those is like 15ft and my distance is like 40ft. I see they do make CAT6 to Toslink converters if needed. I see they also make RG6 to Toslink converters too.

1 hour ago, SMHarman said:

This logic is built onto the drivers below. This, or the relay blind driver. In this case 2 relay up/down. Not up/down/stop. Bind two relays in your project to the up and down. Bind them to the driver. The drivers take a time measurement from top to bottom as an input and also a max time either relay should be opening, an emergency cut off.

 

That can then bind to a button. Once of up or down. Twice for stop and three for set to 80% for example. Or two buttons for up and down.

 

Or as others have said, write a serial driver but if you have the spare relays the above gets you over the integration line quick.

 

And if you want the lockout feature. That's a third relay. And a different button programming.

 

Ok, so please tell me what we need to do for pre wire. This is a cabinet that will have a motorized door to display a TV. The module pictured above will be in the cabinet with the TV. The C4 controller will be in another room. if I want this just be a button on on of the keypad dimmers, what would I run back to the control room for wire from the module/TV location?

3 minutes ago, brekfastb said:

looks like rs232 might be an option, if you can get strings you can write a driver


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What do you mean by get strings? I haven’t written any drivers before...

Best way to do this or pre-wire? Would it be RCA out from actual TV to the control room and into the matrix? Or would there be problems with this?

We have the attached diagram that we would like to integrate into C4. It is a motorized door that opens and closes, this is the provided controller. What would be the best way to have this operate from a keypad, maybe a dedicated button that if pressed once it opens and if pressed again it closes?

All,

We would like to add a couple TVs, both connected to stand alone AVRs, as sources into C4. We are trying to accomplish having the TV audio play on whichever zones we select during sporting events, etc. What is the best method of this and what do we run for wiring? We are during the wiring phase now. Thanks

All,

I have come to realize that the Alexa and Control4 integration is a bit disappointing. I was always under the assumption that it was more advanced then it is. I know that voice control is in its infant stages of automation. I have been trying to think of ways that it would be useful in this home. So I have some questions. There will be 14 different locations in this home, each with its own Echo 3.  They will be wired as separate sources back to the audio matrix. Can these Echo 3 devices be assigned each to a room, such as master, guest bedroom, great room, etc.? For instance, in the guest bedroom, can the Echo 3 in there be assigned to just the guest bedroom? I ask this because I had thought of a cool scenario where Alexa would integrate and be really useful. Say a guest was in that bedroom, and before going to bed said, "Alexa, please set wake alarm to 6:00am". Would Alexa then relay this to the system, where as at 6:00AM she would perform a wake up notification and then in turn that could raise the blinds 50% at that time? On top of that, would Alexa be able to just make the notification in that room and that room only through the overhead  distributed audio speakers in that room? Lastly, the normal preset raise blind time in that room would be at 7:00AM. Could Alexa bypass the normal schedule time this one time, raise them at 6:00AM,  and then say the next day they would go back to their normal schedule of raising at 7:00AM? Please let me know your thoughts. Thanks

1 hour ago, tdougray said:

Oh no !!! Lights and switches

Huh? 

23 minutes ago, JSTRONG said:

Nope. Not that control4 has anyway. You can use a keypad with multiple buttons and connect them to control other lights dimmer. 

Yes, I know C4 doesn’t. But as stated, we are not doing C4 in these rooms. Wondering if Lutron, Leviton, etc. have something. I know Ai can get it down to a two gang with some double load dimmers, but just wondering if I can get it to a single gang. 

All,

So I'm wondering what the consensus is for rooms like the bathrooms in bedrooms. We have four bedrooms that will have their own bathrooms. We are not using C4 lighting in these bathrooms. Lighting plan now calls for a light above vanity, a main 23light, the bath fan, and then a light in the shower. So this is technically 4 switches/dimmers. Also, I always wanted to use one of those motion detecting lights in these rooms that would automatically shut off if no motion was detected. So, ideally, is there is a switch that has multiple buttons for multiple loads and is also motion activated for the main load? Or at least is there a multi button switch for multiple loads without the motion? I know that most multi button switches are for systems like C4, but just wondering if there is one made that can actually be wired to multiple loads. Thanks

Also, in the end both types of systems, once installed, will work exactly the same. The real only big difference is if the EA5 goes down, will most of lights still work? With hidden switches, primary loads in all room still work. And with panelized switches, if EA5 goes down, then all the primary loads to each keypad still work if programmed to specific functions. But again, like the post above said about the Lounge, he only programs the keypad top two buttons to turn on and off the main lights. So technically, in hidden system, this function would be the same as the keypad dimmer will always turn on main lights. Other then that, most of the other bullet points don’t really make a difference, except maybe the 0-10v and pump control, but again for those you have to buy a module for each. Again guys, just weighing it out. For the tiny differences,  I know that my dealer will say if your EA5 goes down, we can be there the next day to fix or replace. 

47 minutes ago, Crustyloafer said:

Thanks guys for all your input. I actually think it’s a good thread because a lot of information has been exchanged. By the way, my dealer has no knowledge of what equipment I have. So their plan was not built around my equipment.  I usually do these types of electronics myself, but decided to hire a dealer this time. They came in and laid everything out without knowing any equipment or devices. Hiding is the way they always do it, with no input from me. Heck, I’m the one that asked about panelizing, not something they even brought up. They then said panelizing is usually for huge homes with 50 to 100 loads. I also followed up with one of the biggest electricians here, and he also said he installed tons of panelized back in the day and he recommended not to do it. Says he hides them too. So after the walk through, I technically only have about 25 loads total we are doing so their method was just to hide rather than panelize. Everyone on this forum is always very “strong” on listening and going with what dealer says. So here we are with the dealer’s plan going against what you all say. So most of my responses are trying to justify what the dealer has said, after all this is the advice I’m paying all the money for, right? Tough spot to be in. 

1 hour ago, Cyknight said:

In panel lighting with wired keypad, it needs to be set up that specific buttons control specific lights. IE a scene tied to a button may stop working, but that button will default back to controlling the rooms main light, and so on.

It's not that wired keypad buttons aren't going through a controller, but they have the ability to default back to basic lighting  control if the controller fails

What is the advantage here then? So basically if controller goes down with hiding switch scenario, none of secondary loads will work. If controller goes down with panelized, then keypad revert back to controlling one load and none of secondary loads will work? Or are you saying that keypad reverts back to each button controlling each secondary load individually so that all lights still work?

1 hour ago, Cyknight said:

Based on what?

The ones I have talked to. You can’t really say that everyone that wants to hide a couple dimmers always go to panelizing, can you?

53 minutes ago, Cyknight said:

Not quite, but the wired keypads can be set to retain some SPECIFIC control over SPECIFIC lights when the system is down.

Actually you COULD use the keypads you have (they can be powered low voltage as well) - but they won't have the fall back feature.

Yes, there are relay modules which you would use as switches (for fans etc) - nice addition is that you could use fan drivers and connect them as actual fans (under comfort) vs them showing up as lights. Much like 'regualr' dimmers you can set them o mimic switches, but in the same vain, they won't be ACTUAL switches, and shouldn't be used for motors etc.

Other components exist, but they are primarily for keypads, such as the bus module and the powersupply for the keypads.

Sure - if a dimmer stops working itself, it still stops working. But now you're in the same line as a light not trurning on because your bulb is burnt out. Or not having lights because there is no power.

It's a bout relative likely hood, which becomes MUCH smaller.

Thanks. Still not clear on what you mean by “not quite”. I thought the whole point of centralized was to reduce clutter and not have any lights go down if the EA5 goes down. If that isn’t the case, it’s harder to see why this is an advantage over hiding switches. Is this all correct?:

Panelized

1. lighting control via only keypad with no other switches in the room

2. no problems with Zigbee Storm 

3. if EA5 goes down, most lights will not work? Keypad is not wired to even the primary load in the room

Hidden

1. lighting control via only keypad with no other switches in room
2. possible Zigbee Storm problems

3. if EA5 goes down, all keypads still work for primary connected loads

I also get the idea of a “clean” install. But I’m sure that half the dealers across the country hide dimmers on almost every install. I know there are other differences, but this is tough decision. When some on here say hiding switches is not proper or a bad idea, it seems panelized is almost the exact same thing, just a more expensive way to do it. I’m not against st panelized, I’m actually strongly considering it, I just trying to way out benefits. Some say, it’s ridiculous to hide a secondary switch to a room, and put it two rooms away, but is it? Isn’t panelizing doing the same thing? You are still running to a central location and not actually having a physical load connected to any of your keypads. If the panel module or the EA5 go down, do you still have control? Whereas with the hidden switch plan, you ALWAYS, have control over your primary load in the room. Then there is the cost. Most say it’s the same, but it is not. Panelized is much more. Are the keypads free when you buy the modules? Lol. You still have to buy all the keypads on top of buying all the modules, metal enclosures, Ethernet switch, power supply, plus all the home runs of wire. Granted you do save by not having to romex the keypads. If I went this route, I probably  wouldn’t use the 2 or 5 slot metal boxes from C4 because they are ridiculous. Any large metal enclosure with DIN rail would work. I don’t know. Is it worth it?

2 hours ago, Crustyloafer said:

Not quite, in that scenario with panelized lighting all loads would be handles by the 8 channel panelized module. The only keypads in this room or any other rooms for that matter would be the wired panelized keypads which are wired with Lutron style low voltage cabling. There are no keypads with actual dimmers built into them used in a fully panelized system, or a least not if it has been planned out correctly. These wired keypad are powered from a 48V keypad bus power supply as part of the panelized system.
 

It is also possible to have a hybrid system with a mix of panelized lighting and wired keypads and then wireless keypad dimmers for additional loads that are added later and can only be retrofitted. When installing a fully penalised system we quite often wire in a few wireless keypads (still without dimmers built-in) to help extend  and bolster the ZigBee mesh. These wireless keypads can also be powered from the same 48V keypad bus power supply, but count as 1.5 keypads each towards the total number of keypads/spokes allowed on each keypad wiring run.

I see. So all of the keypads, dimmers, switches, etc that we have now are useless and we would have to buy all new keypads that were designed for the panelized system. Now this is making more sense. Everyone keeps saying their "wired keypads", so I didn't know that they mean "different" wired keypads. So then with panelized, this makes sense that that  nothing would go down if controller went down. Because each button on the keypad controls a load that is ran to the central panel system and EA5 has no bearing on it except for scenes? 

Another question, is there separate modules other then dimming modules? Say we wanted to use several switches, are there switching modules or can the dimming modules also act as switches? This all seems pretty simple, but I must say when I look at pictures of these C4 panelized systems it looks like there are many more wires and components then what we simply talked about here.

Lastly, everyone mentions the advantage to panelized is that if in non panelized the controller goes down, your secondary lights wont work. But isn't it also true that any of these modules could go down and then in that case none of the lights connected to it would work? Even the primary lights? 

1 hour ago, SMHarman said:

So depending on distance from load to panel would be best with a single panel 5 section. With 3x8 dimmer packs. That will save yiu the cost of one tin box

Or two. One location with 8 or fewer and one with 16 or fewer in 2 X 2 panels.

If all these are secondary loads then all the switches and hardware yiu have for rooms remains. They just activate scenes with the secondary loads.

Also they will activate the primary load, regardless of if the controller is on line.

You just bought a dealer. Congratulations. Panel lighting is great. Use this home to learn so you can sell it effectively. You'll like it.

So technically, the majority of the APD dimmers would not be needed because the modules take the place of the APD dimmers, is this correct?  For example, lets say there are 5 loads in the Master bath. The plan before was to have a single KPD located in Master bath for load 1, then in the Master Closet have one APD for load 2, one APD for load 3, one SW for load 4 (bath fan),  one APD for load 5. In the panelized lighting plan, we would still have one KPD located in Master Bath for load 1, and then loads 2-5 would be handled by the module and all the other APDs or SWs are not needed? Also, can the module be programmed to have some of the channels utilize either dimmer or switch? I see its called the dimmer module so wondering if a regular switch can be used with it too.

1 minute ago, SMHarman said:

YepPlease tell where we can get BNIB lighting hardware cheaper than a dealer?Indeed like a train wreck Some would say it's the same. Some would say it's going to cause problems and go against C4 design.

Also, you are custom building a 6,000 sq ft house and complaining about $1,000 price differences on lighting. If yiu want a C4 install here yiu should be putting 5-10% of build cost into tech. Some of that moves from electrical and other budgets. How many hidden loads.
How many floors.
How is this 6000 ft distributed.
Still trying to help but drip fed info makes this a tough thread.
 

Currently, the hidden loads consist of a combined 19 APDs (this could go to 24) and 2 SWs. There are two floors to the residence. 6000 on main and 2200 upper level.

2 hours ago, ILoveC4 said:

In fact, thinking through this, I’d be shocked if this passed inspection. Lights are a life and safety thing. I can’t imagine an inspector just being okay hearing “oh, those will work later after we get a chance to install the controller and program them”.


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We have visited with multiple electricians in our area and they all have worked with our dealer and install this way all the time. But all in all, I'm really not advocating for one over the other, I just want to make the right decision. I'm familiar with the C4 lighting now and understand hiding hardware. The panelized would be a new learning curve. For instance, these 8 dimmer modules seem to be what I need from what has been provided here for information. But do Switches also work with these modules? What do I all need for extra equipment up and above what I have now? For instance I have three locations of hidden hardware. Do I put a panel in each of those locations? Or do I centralize one panel now and have all of these 3 hidden locations combined  to one hidden location with one box and all modules inside?