DS2-Mini: Poor Quality of Night Mode

[Don Cohen]

I've posted about this before, but nobody has specifically commented on this, and so wanted to get a definitive answer here.

Attached is a screenshot within the Luma NVR Interface, showing night-time video feeds from 2 Luma 510 IP Cameras (the top 2), and from my DS2-Mini (bottom left).  As is readily apparent, the quality of the DS2-Mini is dramatically inferior to what I get with the Luma Cameras.  No outside lights are on where the Luma Cameras are located.  Interestingly, there is a light left on where the DS2-Mini is located, but the quality of the picture is no better whether it's on or off.

I have logged into the Web Interface of the Camera, and the only parameter there to alter this is Brightness Level, which I have set to the highest setting.  It makes a minimal difference.  And in fact, for this, and other reasons, I have replaced my original one with a new one, concerned about some issues that couldn't be fixed, and the new one is just the same.

So, my question is: does anybody with a DS2-Mini have any better Night Mode picture quality than is demonstrated here?  If so, what parameters or other things did you adjust to accomplish that?

And if this is just the way it is (which I suspect is the case), that's pretty disappointing, given the cost of the DS2-Mini.

Thanks.

[Gary Leeds UK]

You can log into the DS2 IP address and check the setting 

otherwise I would request your dealer sends it back ~ ours does not look like that and we have light. 

[eggzlot]

My guess is something is up with the IR sensors

 

[Don Cohen]

57 minutes ago, Gary Leeds UK said:

You can log into the DS2 IP address and check the setting 

otherwise I would request your dealer sends it back ~ ours does not look like that and we have light. 

Thanks.  As I indicated in my post, I have logged in, and the only settings that I've found there that would impact this are shown in the attached screen capture.  Are you aware of some other setting that would make a difference?

And as I also indicated in my post, this is the 2nd one, as I just replaced the original one with a brand new one.  Night mode quality hasn't changed.

[ILoveC4]

Here’s mine along a Dahua IP cam, both displayed in the C4 interface. It’s very early sunrise - not bright but not dark. I can get comparisons any time of day you’d like. These cameras are about 20 feet apart. 

[Don Cohen]

39 minutes ago, eggzlot said:

My guess is something is up with the IR sensors

 

That makes sense, but for the life of me, I can't find any setting for this.

[Don Cohen]

3 minutes ago, ILoveC4 said:

Here’s mine along a Dahua IP cam, both displayed in the C4 interface. It’s very early sunrise - not bright but not dark. I can get comparisons any time of day you’d like. These cameras are about 20 feet apart. 

 

Thanks.  That's what I would expect it should look like.

So the question is, why is mine so poor?  And this is the 2nd DS2-Mini, acting the exact same way!

[ILoveC4]

I can take one for you tonight in the dead of night, with all exterior lights off. Are you sure the camera is getting enough power? I’d maybe try a different port on the switch or a different PoE injector?

[Don Cohen]

15 minutes ago, ILoveC4 said:

I can take one for you tonight in the dead of night, with all exterior lights off. Are you sure the camera is getting enough power? I’d maybe try a different port on the switch or a different PoE injector?

Thanks - I"d be interested in seeing that.

It is attached to an Araknis AN-210-SW-R-8-POE Switch, which in turn is attached to an Araknis AN-310-4L2W Router.  The Ethernet Cable run is perhaps 50' at the most.  So I think this would be ok.  I just switched it from one port to another just for the heck of it.  Is there any reason one of the 8 POE ports on the Switch would be any better than another in this regard?

But at the same time, the other issue I've had with the DS2 is that when I connect with Intercom Anywhere, and sometimes with the T3, I get sporadic "Poor Connection" errors. This was the other reason I had the unit replaced with a new one, but this problem persisted.

If the Ethernet Cable were kinked somewhere, or had a poor connector/connection, would this explain what I'm seeing?  I would have thought it would be an "all or nothing" - either it's properly connected, and works, or it wouldn't be connected at all.  Could be wrong about this, obviously.

 

[eggzlot]

27 minutes ago, Don Cohen said:

Thanks - I"d be interested in seeing that.

It is attached to an Araknis AN-210-SW-R-8-POE Switch, which in turn is attached to an Araknis AN-310-4L2W Router.  The Ethernet Cable run is perhaps 50' at the most.  So I think this would be ok.  I just switched it from one port to another just for the heck of it.  Is there any reason one of the 8 POE ports on the Switch would be any better than another in this regard?

But at the same time, the other issue I've had with the DS2 is that when I connect with Intercom Anywhere, and sometimes with the T3, I get sporadic "Poor Connection" errors. This was the other reason I had the unit replaced with a new one, but this problem persisted.

If the Ethernet Cable were kinked somewhere, or had a poor connector/connection, would this explain what I'm seeing?  I would have thought it would be an "all or nothing" - either it's properly connected, and works, or it wouldn't be connected at all.  Could be wrong about this, obviously.

 

could be a bum cable - a snag where you cannot see it.  After enough headaches I invested in some decent ethernet cable testing tools.  Quick way to eliminate potential headaches and driving myself insane.  If you are not getting good IR and getting communication issues, and this is your 2nd device, I'd start to look at wiring/switch vs the DS2.  

Klein tools makes good stuff.  

[Don Cohen]

14 minutes ago, eggzlot said:

could be a bum cable - a snag where you cannot see it.  After enough headaches I invested in some decent ethernet cable testing tools.  Quick way to eliminate potential headaches and driving myself insane.  If you are not getting good IR and getting communication issues, and this is your 2nd device, I'd start to look at wiring/switch vs the DS2.  

Klein tools makes good stuff.  

Sounds like a good idea.  Any suggestion on a particular tool to do the simple testing I'd need, hopefully at a reasonable cost point?

[eggzlot]

1 hour ago, Don Cohen said:

Sounds like a good idea.  Any suggestion on a particular tool to do the simple testing I'd need, hopefully at a reasonable cost point?

i dont know what you consider reasonable

$15 option: https://www.amazon.com/Docooler-Network-Cable-Tester-Remote/dp/B00DQH4XPW/ref=sr_1_8?keywords=ethernet+cable+tester&qid=1574182740&sr=8-8

- had this and used it.  it gave me a few right answers, a few wrong answers and eventually would not turn on anymore

~$60: https://www.amazon.com/Tester-Continuity-Klein-Tools-VDV526-052/dp/B004CI9NRM/ref=sr_1_6?keywords=ethernet+cable+tester&qid=1574182653&sr=8-6

~$75: https://www.amazon.com/Telephone-Remotes-Klein-Tools-VDV501-823/dp/B077Y7RV5B/ref=sr_1_7?keywords=ethernet%2Bcable%2Btester&qid=1574182740&sr=8-7&th=1

That is what I have - you can test a cable and you can also figure out what port is what on your patch panel and you can use a tone tool too which you can purchase separately

I am a novice admin tech at the best, I understand it and 20 years ago in a past life I was a summer intern for 3 summers as a Network Intern.  And I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express, but I am not a professional.

here are fancier ones to test PoE, various types of cables (not just ethernet/coax), some will give you read outs as to how far the cable distance is or where on the line is the issue, etc.  The Klein tools from what I've read are the basics, if there are errors it will tell you, if its a twisted wire or two at the ends you'll know but you will not get much more diagnostics out of it from what I gather.

they have PoE Devices such as: https://www.flukenetworks.com/datacom-cabling/copper-testing/MicroScanner-Cable-Verifier

[Don Cohen]

eggzlot: anything under $100 I would consider reasonable, so all those look great.  But what do you think of this, which I was about to post when yours did:

Ok, found something interesting, on the "Poor Connection" error I get when using the Intercom App.  This is possibly related to the poor IR/Night Mode performance:

If I log into the Luma NVR interface, and temporarily change the IP for the DS2-MIni, this interrupts the video feed from the camera, so it no longer shows up in the Luma interface.

If I now use Intercom Anywhere, I seem to have a completely solid connection, with no "Poor Connection" errors (so far at least).  This seems consistent, as when I correct the IP address, so Luma once again sees it, I then see the sporadic "Poor Connection" error.

I will test tonight to see if disconnecting the Luma feed will improve the IR/Night Mode performance, which will be very interesting to see.

If *both* issues are resolved when I disconnect the Luma connection, what does this mean, and how can it be fixed?  I don't know that it matters, but the 2 Luma IP cameras are plugged directly into the Luma NVR, while the DS2-Mini connects to the Araknis Switch (physical constraints made this much easier).

 

[eggzlot]

30 minutes ago, Don Cohen said:

eggzlot: anything under $100 I would consider reasonable, so all those look great.  But what do you think of this, which I was about to post when yours did:

Ok, found something interesting, on the "Poor Connection" error I get when using the Intercom App.  This is possibly related to the poor IR/Night Mode performance:

If I log into the Luma NVR interface, and temporarily change the IP for the DS2-MIni, this interrupts the video feed from the camera, so it no longer shows up in the Luma interface.

If I now use Intercom Anywhere, I seem to have a completely solid connection, with no "Poor Connection" errors (so far at least).  This seems consistent, as when I correct the IP address, so Luma once again sees it, I then see the sporadic "Poor Connection" error.

I will test tonight to see if disconnecting the Luma feed will improve the IR/Night Mode performance, which will be very interesting to see.

If *both* issues are resolved when I disconnect the Luma connection, what does this mean, and how can it be fixed?  I don't know that it matters, but the 2 Luma IP cameras are plugged directly into the Luma NVR, while the DS2-Mini connects to the Araknis Switch (physical constraints made this much easier).

 

 

I am just going to take a hack here - 

Are you viewing the image through the Luma's IP or direct from the DS2?  Maybe the Luma has settings that you need to tweak?  With blue Iris (my NVR) I can put in the BI IP into a browser, or the camera itself, and see a live feed.  BI can process stuff over the image so in theory the feeds could look different if that makes sense.

If you keep it connected to the Luma:

1) log into the DS2 Web UI and look at the camera live feed - does it look good?  Or maybe just enter the RSTP into VLC to view it

2) if it looks good above but then you view via the Luma app and its poor - there is something in the Luma settings you need to tweak

3) if both look bad, try sending a substream as I mentioned above

[Don Cohen]

I'll have to wait until it's dark to fully explore all the options.  But in the past, the night stream was dark when viewed through the T3, the Control4 Android App on my phone, within the DS2 Web UI, or through the Luma interface.  One was no better than the other, consistently dark regardless of which method was used to view it.  But I will re-confirm all of this tonight, with and without the feed active to the Luma.

The possibility of inadequate power has my interest, where somehow there is sufficient power to transmit to the Control4 network on its own, but runs short when it is also connected to the Luma.  I don't fully understand how this works, in terms of which streams go where, and so forth.  But it seems plausible that there isn't sufficient power for both.  And how this would be remedied, I couldn't say.

Will update after tonight.

Thanks for the help.

[eggzlot]

24 minutes ago, Don Cohen said:

I'll have to wait until it's dark to fully explore all the options.  But in the past, the night stream was dark when viewed through the T3, the Control4 Android App on my phone, within the DS2 Web UI, or through the Luma interface.  One was no better than the other, consistently dark regardless of which method was used to view it.  But I will re-confirm all of this tonight, with and without the feed active to the Luma.

The possibility of inadequate power has my interest, where somehow there is sufficient power to transmit to the Control4 network on its own, but runs short when it is also connected to the Luma.  I don't fully understand how this works, in terms of which streams go where, and so forth.  But it seems plausible that there isn't sufficient power for both.  And how this would be remedied, I couldn't say.

Will update after tonight.

Thanks for the help.

you could try to send a substream to the NVR

start with the basics - remove the DS from the NVR.  log in directly via the IP on a web browser/VLC - does it work?  then add the next layer, connect it to Luma.  How does it look when using the Luma app?  How about when logging back in via the IP of the camera, etc

You mention looking at the cameras in 4 interfaces, but that doesnt tell me where those interfaces are pulling the stream.  Your t3/android interface, is that pulling from the IP Cam or the NVR?  My Camera is at 10.xx.x.AB and my Blue Iris is at 10.xx.x.XY.  Based on how drivers are added/configured, I could look at the camera via a c4 interface by pulling from either of those two addresses.

[Don Cohen]

Well, no progress.  With the DS2 not active in the NVR (by changing the IP address in the NVR interface), while the Intercom Anywhere functionality seems better, the Night Mode picture quality has not improved at all.

I feel like I'm spinning my wheels here, with not quite enough knowledge to crack this.  Your questions are valid, in terms of which streams are being pulled, but this is unfamiliar enough to me that I can't sort it out.  RTSP is enabled in the DS2-Mini Interface, and that is how the NVR is getting the streams.  How the T3 and Android App get the video feed, I don't know, nor can I see how to obtain that information.

(And by the way, I can't access any of the cameras with the Android Luma App - SnapAV said their servers for LumaLink, which is used by the App to access the feeds, is down, and they're working on it.  It's been that way for a couple of weeks now.)

I had a quick look at the Klein tools, but a superficial reading on at least one of them indicated that both ends would need to be plugged in to test the cable.  How would I do that when the 2 ends are 50 feet apart?

[Don Cohen]

Actually, I just thought of one more thing I can try: Disconnect the DS2-Mini from its location at my door, bring it inside, and connect it to the same port of the Araknis POE Switch, using a short Ethernet Cable.  The switch is in my Theater room, so I can darken that completely, so I can test its low-light capability that way.  If that works fine, then I'll know it's the cable.

Now, will wait for daylight to give that a try.

[eggzlot]

34 minutes ago, Don Cohen said:

Well, no progress.  With the DS2 not active in the NVR (by changing the IP address in the NVR interface), while the Intercom Anywhere functionality seems better, the Night Mode picture quality has not improved at all.

I feel like I'm spinning my wheels here, with not quite enough knowledge to crack this.  Your questions are valid, in terms of which streams are being pulled, but this is unfamiliar enough to me that I can't sort it out.  RTSP is enabled in the DS2-Mini Interface, and that is how the NVR is getting the streams.  How the T3 and Android App get the video feed, I don't know, nor can I see how to obtain that information.

(And by the way, I can't access any of the cameras with the Android Luma App - SnapAV said their servers for LumaLink, which is used by the App to access the feeds, is down, and they're working on it.  It's been that way for a couple of weeks now.)

I had a quick look at the Klein tools, but a superficial reading on at least one of them indicated that both ends would need to be plugged in to test the cable.  How would I do that when the 2 ends are 50 feet apart?

Klein tools unit I linked to has 2 pieces.  Put one on cable behind DS2 and the other where it terminates.   Trust me the parts are part of all links I provided.  Find a video

for the two I linked to one has the top that detaches and the other has a bottom piece that detaches. 
 

without hands on your system not sure I can troubleshoot more.  Ask your dealer who set it up?

and yes you can physically move the DS2 indoors to test with a different cable.  You can try a different port.  You can also try an injector to bypass the PoE feature on your switch

[ILoveC4]

Here’s another pic taken in the “pitch black”. The only light is ambient light from the neighbors and the Christmas lights. You can see the DS2 isn’t very good. I’m standing about 25’ away holding one of my kids. You can’t really see me at all in the DS2. It’s worth noting the DS2 is under a large covered porch, so it’s exposed to way less light. 

[dhendriksen]

Here’s another pic taken in the “pitch black”. The only light is ambient light from the neighbors and the Christmas lights. You can see the DS2 isn’t very good. I’m standing about 25’ away holding one of my kids. You can’t really see me at all in the DS2. It’s worth noting the DS2 is under a large covered porch, so it’s exposed to way less light. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[dhendriksen]

Probably worth noting I haven’t touched any camera related settings in the DS2. I think this is a testament to how good the Dahua camera is more so than how crappy the DS2 is.


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[eggzlot]

14 minutes ago, dhendriksen said:

Probably worth noting I haven’t touched any camera related settings in the DS2. I think this is a testament to how good the Dahua camera is more so than how crappy the DS2 is.


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My Dahua look better than my doorstation which has a kt&c camera.  Though it is still better than the DS2.  The doorstation camera are small so sensor can only do so much.  But still that DS2 from the OP is bad. 

[dhendriksen]

Here’s a pic with the porch cans turned up to 60% and the eave cans on. I’m standing ~10 feet in front of the doorstation.


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[Don Cohen]

Appreciate the posts and pictures.  Understood about the Klein tools.  I was just getting frustrated earlier, and hadn't taken a careful look at how they would be used.  In any case, it won't cost me anything to just disconnect it and see how it works in my dark theater room.

I don't know, maybe I'm expecting too much from the DS2, but it just looks so crappy compared to the Luma bullet cams.  And combined with the "Poor Connection" error, something just seems funky.  With a little luck, my testing tomorrow will demonstrate better performance with a different cable.  That would at least provide a relatively easy fix, although a bit of a hassle.