To gigabit, or not to gigabit? That is the question!

[ILoveC4]

Alright guys, I am in need of a larger network switch due to some additional C4 gear that is coming on line soon, and the addition of two PC's at the house. Plus, I have the basement getting finished and will need more data ports once that is complete. Anyways, on to my question.

Currently my network setup is this:

Comcast Modem

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Vonage VoIP Box

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Linksys WRT54g (I know, don't kill me - it works great for serving up wireless)

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8 Port Linksys Commercial Grade 10/100/1000 gigE switch (Model SD2008)

| | | | | | |

HC300 HC300 Media Controller 16 Channel Amp Netgear EVA9150 Netgear EVA9150 ReadyNAS

Currently all my computers connect to the network wirelessly. I had one of my desktop PC's connected to the switch, but that got bumped when the ReadyNAS came online. Here shortly we're going to be adding an HC1000 V3 (which will probably mean the end of the Media Controller), and C4 Tuner which I just picked up, and a couple of 7" PoE touchscreens. I would also like room to connect three PC's. Essentially I need at least 5 more ports. I would love a 24 port switch, but am trying to be cost concious and don't want to buy more than I need.

Here are the scenarios that are running through my head.

A) Buy a second switch just like the one I have a connect the two together using one of the ports on each switch. Is this even possible? If so, would the two switches connect to the router or would the connect to each other?

Buy a 16 or 24 port 10/100 switch. I can get a 10/100 24 port switch for ~ the same price as the 10/100/1000 8 port switch. Do I really need 10/100/1000 or is 10/100 enough?

C) Buck up and buy a 16 or 24 port 10/100/1000 switch (obviously the best route for performance, but again - is the 10/100/1000 really necessary)?

Here are the three 10/100/1000 switches I am looking at:

8 port: http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Linksys+-+8-Port+10/100/1000+Mbps+Gigabit+Switch/8308798.p?id=1173577950216&skuId=8308798

16 port: http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Linksys+-+16-Port+10/100/1000+Gigabit+Ethernet+Switch/8854983.p?id=1209166342096&skuId=8854983

24 port: http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Linksys+-+24-Port+10/100/1000+Gigabit+Ethernet+Switch/8854974.p?id=1209166342026&skuId=8854974

If 10/100/1000 isn't necessary there are a myriad of cost effective 10/100 switches available.

So to sum all this up here is what I want to know from the pros:

Can I hook two switches togethers?

Do I really need 10/100/1000 or is 10/100 going to be enough?

Sorry for the long post, and thanks in advance for your help on this.

[ILoveC4]

The other thing I have thought about is getting a 10/100/1000 router (such as the WRVS4400N) and getting a few additional ports that way. If I did that, could I connect two 8 port 10/100/1000 switches to the router and have gigE communication between all devices hooked up to the router and both switches?

[tigrzeye]

To facilitate ease of wiring I have 3 switches stacked or daisy chained together and have no problems. I don't do video over my network and only have a smaller system (see screen shots). I have a router converted to use as an access point, and my TV, Blu-ray, HD-DVD, and a desk top computer connected to the network as well. 2 Laptops and my iPhone use wireless to connect. All my switches are Netgear 10/100.

HOWEVER... here is what they recommend in C4 Tech I training, direct from the training manual:

. Wire the Primary Controller to the main router.

. Wire all Control4 devices to the same Switch.

. Do not cascade Switches (one Switch connected to another to another, etc.)

If you daisy chain you can create problems in trouble shooting that you wouldn't have in a 1 switch - home runs to equipment situation.

ie: where is the problem, wiring to and between the switches? is it switch #1 or maybe #2 or #3? is it wiring to the equipment from the switch? With the 1 switch home run scenario it is either the switch itself or the wiring to the equipment having the problem.

A Netgear FS116P 10/100 switch with POE is around $200 at Newegg

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833122154&cm_re=fs116p-_-33-122-154-_-Product

http://www.netgear.com/Products/Switches/DesktopSwitches/FS116P.aspx

My 2 cents for the morning ..

[ILoveC4]

So are you saying to save the premium I would pay to get a Gigabit switch and stick with 10/100?

[jberger]

I'd put in a 16 port or 24 port 10/100/1000 switch and not worry about it again for 5 years. Yes, it's a bit more money, but you really won't need to deal with it again for years.

A smart switch like the netgear 724T will give you plenty of expansion room and bandwidth. But be forewarned, it's got fans so it's loud. Not earsplitting, but certainly noticeable if you are in the same room with it. I don't think this switch has been approved by Control4, but I've had good luck with it in both commercial and residential clients.

I don't like to stack or cascade switches if you can avoid it. Control4 uses UDP for some communications and cascading switches is a great way to have issues with SSDA and UDP. If you can keep everything plugged into one chassis, you will avoid most of those issues and the associated troubleshooting.

None of the current C4 gear, except for the 1000, will be using Gigabit. But just the headroom on the network can be a blessing. Especially when you have NAS gear and you need to move files around.

[tigrzeye]

Excellent point jberger, the HC1000 is gigabit capable.

How much would you think you would be throttling the HC1000's capabilities by staying with a 10/100 switch as everything else on the system only transfers at up to 100 Mbps?

[bog]

Yes you can chain the switches to expand ports, this is a very common and acceptable practice. It's just if you have problems it makes troubleshooting a bit more complex.

When considering gigabit and if you can benefit from it, do you know what devices you have that support gigabit? The EVA9150 does not support gigabit (one of the devices that would be most likely to benefit). I think only your ReadyNAS device supports gigabit.

I use a gigabit switch only to improve performance of copying files to/from my NAS. I don't think my HC300 supports gigabit (it only streams audio anyways so it's not a concern).

Does the C4 media player support gigabit? Probably not as I'm not aware of it supporting video encoded up to 100Mbps.

[tigrzeye]

http://www.netgear.com/Products/Switches/SmartSwitches/FS726TP.aspx

24 port 10/100 plus 2 gigabit ports w/12 poe capable ports

About $269 on newegg.com

[ILoveC4]

Yes you can chain the switches to expand ports, this is a very common and acceptable practice. It's just if you have problems it makes troubleshooting a bit more complex.

When considering gigabit and if you can benefit from it, do you know what devices you have that support gigabit? The EVA9150 does not support gigabit (one of the devices that would be most likely to benefit). I think only your ReadyNAS device supports gigabit.

I use a gigabit switch only to improve performance of copying files to/from my NAS. I don't think my HC300 supports gigabit (it only streams audio anyways so it's not a concern).

Does the C4 media player support gigabit? Probably not as I'm not aware of it supporting video encoded up to 100Mbps.

Well, that's just it. The only thing I have right now that supports gigabit is the ReadyNAS and my PC. When I get the HC1000 V3 soon that supports gigabit as well. I don't move big files very often, and when I do they aren't THAT big, only 3-6 gigs (usually a DVD rip).

I want to do it right, but I don't want to spend a fortune doing it. I have pouring money into the house lately and I am trying to "slow down the bleeding".

What switch do you guys recommend?

[ILoveC4]

I should also mention that all equipment is housed in the utility room, and the only run that is longer than about four feet is the one that goes to my PC.

[ILoveC4]

I'd put in a 16 port or 24 port 10/100/1000 switch and not worry about it again for 5 years. Yes, it's a bit more money, but you really won't need to deal with it again for years.

A smart switch like the netgear 724T will give you plenty of expansion room and bandwidth. But be forewarned, it's got fans so it's loud. Not earsplitting, but certainly noticeable if you are in the same room with it. I don't think this switch has been approved by Control4, but I've had good luck with it in both commercial and residential clients.

I don't like to stack or cascade switches if you can avoid it. Control4 uses UDP for some communications and cascading switches is a great way to have issues with SSDA and UDP. If you can keep everything plugged into one chassis, you will avoid most of those issues and the associated troubleshooting.

None of the current C4 gear, except for the 1000, will be using Gigabit. But just the headroom on the network can be a blessing. Especially when you have NAS gear and you need to move files around.

Is this the 724T you refer to? http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/464629-REG/Netgear_GS724TNA_ProSafe_24_Port_Gigabit_Smart.html

There are several and I can't find a difference, although I am sure there is one. I am just not much of a network guy...

[mercedes]

Do you need POE?

[Schrader]

What are you going to use for your POE for your 7" Touchscreens? POE injectors?

I recommend a 24 port GB switch. You can pick up a Dell PowerConnect 2724 (24 port 10/100/1000) on Ebay for typically under $100. You can buy a new Dell 2824 (24 port 10/100/1000) from Dell for $200.

I personally use a Dell 2724 to connect all my home PCs and other GB equipment, and cascade a Dell 3748 POE switch for all my POE equipment and 100 MB Control4 items. This setup has worked flawlessly for the last year.

[ILoveC4]

At this point I don't need PoE, but I will when I get the touchscreens. If I got a switch that had PoE that would be cool, but I don't mind using injectors if need be. I don't see myself getting more than three 7" (I need to replace the 10.5's), but I may also decide to add a few cameras later in the year.

Schrader - thanks for the tip on the Dell 2724...I'll check those out online.

[bog]

DLink 24 port gigabit switch, $229 retail is what I use. (http://www.dlink.com/products/?pid=338)

Good suggestion on checking ebay and craigslist for something used.

I'm primarily moving ISO/VOB files around my network and that's why I like gigabit.

Here's an idea.... Use your existing gigabit switch as a "backbone". Place your gigabit devices on that switch. Use another switch for your other devices and connect it into the backbone.

I plan to use an injector if I ever get a touchpanel.

[tigrzeye]

The Netgear I referenced a couple posts up seems to fit .... 10/100, POE, and 10/100/1000 ports for the NAS and HC1000 .. and not bad at $260+/-

[jberger]

The Netgear switch part numbers can be very confusing, especially when they start with the same numbers.

I was specifically referring to the GS724AT-100NAS which is a 24 port GB Smart Switch that has tons of flexibility, QoS, ACL's etc. all via Web Interface.

List is $409 Street price varies.

Lifetime warranty, but there is a charge for advanced replacement.

Our business clients can choose Cisco 2900 series switches or these units, it's all we offer.

Here's a link to the specs:

http://www.netgear.com/upload/product/gs724at/gs724at_gs748at_ds_16dec08.pdf

[ILoveC4]

What are you going to use for your POE for your 7" Touchscreens? POE injectors?

I recommend a 24 port GB switch. You can pick up a Dell PowerConnect 2724 (24 port 10/100/1000) on Ebay for typically under $100. You can buy a new Dell 2824 (24 port 10/100/1000) from Dell for $200.

I personally use a Dell 2724 to connect all my home PCs and other GB equipment, and cascade a Dell 3748 POE switch for all my POE equipment and 100 MB Control4 items. This setup has worked flawlessly for the last year.

Schrader, just bought a used Dell Powerconnect 2724 on eBay for $70. Thanks for the suggestion!

Hopefully it works out.

[GoGo Delicious]

So to sum all this up here is what I want to know from the pros: Do I really need 10/100/1000 or is 10/100 going to be enough?

Read my post HERE on Networking and Gigabit. To take full advantage of a Gigabit network the switch as well as all the network devices need to support Jumbo Frames at a minim. If not, the packet size being transmitted will be the same on Gigabit network as on a 100Mbit network or 10Mbit network for that matter.

Another factor is read/write speed's and throughput of the other devices on the network. Can the other devices write as fast as the data being delivered on a Gigabit network? No they cant so in reality you will not see a 10x increase going from a 100Mbit network to a Gigabit network. Do I recommend going from a 100Mbit to a Gigabit network, yes. But set realistic expectation on speed and throughput and what your equipment can and cannot handle on a Gigabit network.

[Teh D]

To take full advantage of a Gigabit network the switch as well as all the network devices need to support Jumbo Frames at a minim. If not, the packet size being transmitted will be the same on Gigabit network as on a 100Mbit network or 10Mbit network for that matter.

While technically true, the above statement is a bit misleading. The highest throughput on gig-E networks does indeed require jumbo frames, but gig-E still offers a lot of benefits to a network without any use of jumbo frames. The above statement makes it sound like if you don't have jumbo frames you shouldn't bother with gig-E. Nothing could be further from the truth. Gigabit in the network has value even if no endpoint devices are themselves gigabit. In a retrofit it may not be possible to run enough cat5/cat6 cables to a given location for every device to connect back to the core switch. Imagine a family room with XBox 360, PS3, DirecTV HR2x, Popcorn Hour, etc. In this scenario using gig-E switches allows the various multiple 10/100 devices to connect to a remote switch that uplinks to the core over gig-E, potentially eliminating worries about bandwidth to that location.

The point is, gig-E is so inexpensive at this point there is very little reason to continue using 10/100 at the network layer.

[ILoveC4]

Somebody saw this thread right after the initial post and emailed me offering to sell a new 24 port PoE switch they ended up with from a newegg buy one get one free deal. I can't find the email and am thinking it is one of three different people that emailed me. Can the person who sent that email let me know if it's still available or not and refresh me on the details?

Thanks.

[wingzz]

What are you going to use for your POE for your 7" Touchscreens? POE injectors?

I recommend a 24 port GB switch. You can pick up a Dell PowerConnect 2724 (24 port 10/100/1000) on Ebay for typically under $100. You can buy a new Dell 2824 (24 port 10/100/1000) from Dell for $200.

I personally use a Dell 2724 to connect all my home PCs and other GB equipment' date=' and cascade a Dell 3748 POE switch for all my POE equipment and 100 MB Control4 items. This setup has worked flawlessly for the last year.[/quote']

Schrader, just bought a used Dell Powerconnect 2724 on eBay for $70. Thanks for the suggestion!

Hopefully it works out.

That is the same switch I'm using, no problems at all, be sure to enable jumbo frames

[ILoveC4]

What are you going to use for your POE for your 7" Touchscreens? POE injectors?

I recommend a 24 port GB switch. You can pick up a Dell PowerConnect 2724 (24 port 10/100/1000) on Ebay for typically under $100. You can buy a new Dell 2824 (24 port 10/100/1000) from Dell for $200.

I personally use a Dell 2724 to connect all my home PCs and other GB equipment' date=' and cascade a Dell 3748 POE switch for all my POE equipment and 100 MB Control4 items. This setup has worked flawlessly for the last year.[/quote']

Schrader, just bought a used Dell Powerconnect 2724 on eBay for $70. Thanks for the suggestion!

Hopefully it works out.

That is the same switch I'm using, no problems at all, be sure to enable jumbo frames

Wingzz, thanks for the tip, how do I do that? I got all my gear rack mounted this weekend, including that switch. I hadn't used it yet, and everything seemed fine until my wife tried watching a movie...it would just buffer and say network performance insufficient. I ran a network test and instead of getting a consistant 60+ mb/s like before it was in the 30's. I tried replacing the cable between the media player, and the cable between the NAS...neither fixed the problem. I put my 8 port Linksys commercial grade 10/100/1000 switch in and everything works like it used to. Does it sound like enabling Jumbo Frames would fix this problem?

Thanks.

[wingzz]

Schrader' date=' just bought a used Dell Powerconnect 2724 on eBay for $70. Thanks for the suggestion!

Hopefully it works out.[/quote']

That is the same switch I'm using, no problems at all, be sure to enable jumbo frames

Wingzz, thanks for the tip, how do I do that? I got all my gear rack mounted this weekend, including that switch. I hadn't used it yet, and everything seemed fine until my wife tried watching a movie...it would just buffer and say network performance insufficient. I ran a network test and instead of getting a consistant 60+ mb/s like before it was in the 30's. I tried replacing the cable between the media player, and the cable between the NAS...neither fixed the problem. I put my 8 port Linksys commercial grade 10/100/1000 switch in and everything works like it used to. Does it sound like enabling Jumbo Frames would fix this problem?

Thanks.

it might, you need to go into the switch and its admin page, from there you can enable jumbo frames, I dont remember how to access it at the moment but the info was easy to find, it was in the manual for the switch, I used a laptop set to a IP address they listed in the manual and entered in the listed IP into a browser, easy as that, I just dont remember the IP the switch uses off hand

[dgbrown]

Dan - did you change the switch ports things were plugged into. Sounds like a physical media problem. If you changed the cable out already there may be a port speed mismatch. Check the ethernet settings on each device and on the switch. I've seen problems with auto negotiation of link speed - eg. the switch things a device is has negotiated to 1gb and the device things 100mb - also check your duplex settings.