Issues with Tunein and 2.8.2

[$Genius]

23 hours ago, brucecampbell said:

I took a brief look last night:

My TuneIn driver is version 111. I'm going to get this updated to the latest (113 as shown in the post above) and see if that helps.

I'm not running a managed switch, so not sure if the timeout settings are affecting me.

One test I did was to create a loop to turn on tunein with a one second delay between each attempt and a counter.

so far the record is 39 attempts before TuneIn comes on......

will keep you posted once I get a new version of the driver installed.

 

 

Hello Bruce

Your loop test was very useful as it confirms for me that it is definitely a connectivity issue (rather than a limp driver per se). If you set your delay to 5 seconds, I predict that Tunein will start in about 4 loop cycles. A 1 second interval is too short to allow the Draytek to establish a port connection.

I ported the project off the EA5 and onto to an old HC250 and Tunein works perfectly - makes ya think aye?

PS. I am in Christchurch NZ so we could work together on a solution and post a result for others  having this issue?

 

 

[$Genius]

7 hours ago, Matt_Eng said:

We are also having problems with TuneIn and Napster through Control4 using Draytek Routers.

As standard we increase the Portmaptime in the Draytek to 400 seconds or longer.

Even though loading the list of stations does not time out like it did before, we are still experiencing a long delay when once a radio station or song is selected. 20-30 seconds of silence before music starts playing.

Anyone else experienced this?

Hello Matt_Eng

Have not had an issue with long starting delay after selection (as a generic problem) but have had issues similar to this with specific stations (which are then best avoided).

However, I think you are on the right track  by exploring NAT session time. Draytek removes an idle entry and so future incoming packets will not be sent to the internal IP client.  Draytek routing has different default timeout values for each application and each value can be checked and configured by telnet command "portmaptime"( as you have already found) but there are 5 different values under the this generic parameter:

TCP Timeout,  UDP Timeout,  ICMP Timeout, TCP WWW Timeout and TCP SYN Timeout

Which one did you change?  I believe it is the TCP WWW that affects an improvement/solution to this problem.

That said, it seems to be a problem that has been created by some tiny change in the EA series of controllers which causes normally stable Draytek routers to hiccup as Tunein seems to only be problematic with Draytek. Personally, I would like a robust solution to this issue as I don't want to change to a different router brand. Draytek is BRILLIANT!

I recall a publication when the EA controllers were released stating that they are very twitchy with network architecture (ie do not use managed switches etc) - will try and find and post that article....

Thanks everyone for you excellent input to this issue...

$G

 

 

 

Check the current value

By telnet command "portmaptime -l", we can check the current value for each application.

[Matt_Eng]

Thanks for the reply.

In all of our installations we changed the TCP WWW Timeout value as recommended by Control4 on the Knowledgebase. It recommends changing the value to 300 seconds but we usually use 400 seconds. Once we started implementing this we cured the problem of timing out whilst searching for the station list on a cold start.

This issue with a long delay once a station or song is selected is a different issue which we only experience on a couple of our larger projects and is not isolated to TuneIn but also affects Napster.

[SENSE]

Long standing issue. Known internally by c4 as bug 10880, please get your dealers to report this specifically and ask for an update.I'm not sure if this is improved in 2.10. Portmaptime increase is technically a 'hack' or patch to fix. Greatly improved in 2.9.0 with the exception of draytek routers amongst some others. The NAT session for tunein expires on the router, and C4 is not informed. Instead of creating a new NAT session each time a station is selected, (the obvious solution in my opinion) c4 driver 'has a go' with the 'existing' session (not knowing the router has expired it). 

[$Genius]

Thanks everyone...

I will have a wee play tomorrow and report back

:):)

 

[makidoja]

set to 300

 

[brucecampbell]

On ‎19‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 11:25 AM, $Genius said:

Hello Bruce

Your loop test was very useful as it confirms for me that it is definitely a connectivity issue (rather than a limp driver per se). If you set your delay to 5 seconds, I predict that Tunein will start in about 4 loop cycles. A 1 second interval is too short to allow the Draytek to establish a port connection.

I ported the project off the EA5 and onto to an old HC250 and Tunein works perfectly - makes ya think aye?

PS. I am in Christchurch NZ so we could work together on a solution and post a result for others  having this issue?

 

 

Finally made time to take another look at this issue.....

I've got a Draytek Vigor 120 ASDL2/2+ modem and an ASUS RT-AC66U Router - not sure any timeout setting is causing me any issues, in fact I can't find any TCP Timeout options on the modem or router.  However I did find the modem had no DNS setting, so I've edited this to be 8.8.8.8 and 8.8.4.4.

I've now tested tunein via C4 remote - listen - stations - ..... and it has worked first time, every time.

I've only tried it five times so far, but signs are promising given prior to today TuneIn had never started first time.... fingers crossed.

[brucecampbell]

I talked too soon..... must have been a coincidence as this morning it all back to 'normal' with first attempt to turn on tune in taking 37 attempts.

 

[$Genius]

Hi Bruce...

II feel for you

Very frustrating all round.  Even though the following suggestion may be frowned upon, it may be worth trying on the Vigor 120:

Enable UPnP and IGMP Proxy.  C4 seems to required that multicasting be enabled to ensure robust services... I know that others will disagree but it may be worth a try.

If I can find the reference to this, I will post it on this forum.

Re my problem with the Draytek 2860, I am nearly there but have been side tracked with a 10" touch screen "losing" is director connection... AGH!

Cheers

Karl

 

[brucecampbell]

Thanks @$Genius - I'll take a look at this option over the weekend.

 

I'm still yet to hear from my dealer regarding updating to the latest TuneIn driver - seems to be MIA.

From memory my TuneIn driver is version 111 and looking at @knowitall pic earlier in this post, the version is at least at 113 now.

If any dealer/C4 rep is reading this and feels like helping out, please let me know (assuming this update would be only a few mins of your time...)

[knowitall]

I’ll look at it if you wanna create me a login but am weary to make changes remotely 

[msgreenf]

I looked Bruce's project. I am not seeing that 113 works on 291

Sent from my BBB100-1 using Tapatalk

[dcovach]

On 2/8/2018 at 4:14 PM, brucecampbell said:

Thanks @$Genius - I'll take a look at this option over the weekend.

 

I'm still yet to hear from my dealer regarding updating to the latest TuneIn driver - seems to be MIA.

From memory my TuneIn driver is version 111 and looking at @knowitall pic earlier in this post, the version is at least at 113 now.

If any dealer/C4 rep is reading this and feels like helping out, please let me know (assuming this update would be only a few mins of your time...)

 

There hasn't been much discussion on this issue on C4 dealer forums but it has been acknowledged that the Napster patch has affected the TuneIn driver.  I don't like the current method to fix this:

Currently, the only ways to fix TuneIn are: 
1.Have tech support uninstall the patch 
2.Backup the project and use the device imager and image the primary controller back to 2.9.1. 
3. Update to 2.10.0. 

and...

The issue we know about with TuneIn only shows up when the specific system is on 2.9.1 using legacy audio and has the Napster patch installed. 
If you are having issues and you are using advanced audio or are on 2.10.0, then something else is causing the issue. 

This fix is not going to take more than a few minutes, which is unacceptable.  Hopefully a new patch comes out soon as I also have a few clients that can't use TuneIn right now.

[brucecampbell]

On 2/10/2018 at 5:53 AM, knowitall said:

I’ll look at it if you wanna create me a login but am weary to make changes remotely 

Thanks, but it seems I have the latest version of TuneIn for my V2.9.1 system.

If problems persist, I may look at upgrading to 2.10 - but this would mean I lose my HC300 which I currently use for certain connections.

 

 

[$Genius]

Hi Bruce...

I suspect that your HC300 may well be coming to the end of its days. Running 2.9x on it is probably a tad optimistic and I certainly would not attempt going to 2.10

With regard to the Napster patch indicated by dcovach .... 

We have never been big users of Napster here so I would doubt that patch has ever been installed? 

Anyway, I still suspect that your issue is your router and not Tunein as such. Can you just hook up a cheapo Spark Technicolor router (or similar) in place of your Draytek and see if the problem simply vanishes. If it does then problem solved!

 

Regards

$Genius

 

[$Genius]

On 1/26/2018 at 9:01 AM, makidoja said:

set to 300

 

Hi makidoja

Thanks for that parameter....

Have had to change other timeout parameters too to obtain a fix...

Will report these after the system has been thoroughly tested to be certain of a robust solution

Thanks for your input to the problem

Regards

$Genius

 

[brucecampbell]

On 2/8/2018 at 10:33 AM, $Genius said:

Hi Bruce...

II feel for you

Very frustrating all round.  Even though the following suggestion may be frowned upon, it may be worth trying on the Vigor 120:

Enable UPnP and IGMP Proxy.  C4 seems to required that multicasting be enabled to ensure robust services... I know that others will disagree but it may be worth a try.

If I can find the reference to this, I will post it on this forum.

Re my problem with the Draytek 2860, I am nearly there but have been side tracked with a 10" touch screen "losing" is director connection... AGH!

Cheers

Karl

 

I've played around with these settings and will see how it goes.

Tunein has been responding quite well in my testing over the weekend, however was not 100%.

I've got a counter checking how many times my code attempts to trigger TuneIn, so next time I remember, I email myself a report of this value so I can check progress.

[brucecampbell]

16 minutes ago, $Genius said:

Hi Bruce...

I suspect that your HC300 may well be coming to the end of its days. Running 2.9x on it is probably a tad optimistic and I certainly would not attempt going to 2.10

With regard to the Napster patch indicated by dcovach .... 

We have never been big users of Napster here so I would doubt that patch has ever been installed? 

Anyway, I still suspect that your issue is your router and not Tunein as such. Can you just hook up a cheapo Spark Technicolor router (or similar) in place of your Draytek and see if the problem simply vanishes. If it does then problem solved!

 

Regards

$Genius

 

I do have an HC800 which runs the show, the HC300 is used for a second TV and a relay and contact and serial connection

So to lose this device would mean finding replacement hardware to handle the relay and contact and serial (the TV navigator is not important) (unless there is a hack which allows the HC300 to continue to be able to run these...?)

 

I do have a couple of old 3 in 1 routers I could use as a modem, but the whole reason I got the DrayTek was because the others were crap.

(We have old copper wire on the poles, with really bad service in semi-rural Auckland - the phone lines are crackly and I'm too far from the exchange to get VDSL. No fibre. I was lucky to get 3MB download only two years ago.... some help from the Chorus service guy pushed my speed up to around 8MB, and a new modem pushed it up to around 10MB.)

 

[$Genius]

On 2/13/2018 at 10:52 AM, brucecampbell said:

I do have an HC800 which runs the show, the HC300 is used for a second TV and a relay and contact and serial connection

So to lose this device would mean finding replacement hardware to handle the relay and contact and serial (the TV navigator is not important) (unless there is a hack which allows the HC300 to continue to be able to run these...?)

 

I do have a couple of old 3 in 1 routers I could use as a modem, but the whole reason I got the DrayTek was because the others were crap.

(We have old copper wire on the poles, with really bad service in semi-rural Auckland - the phone lines are crackly and I'm too far from the exchange to get VDSL. No fibre. I was lucky to get 3MB download only two years ago.... some help from the Chorus service guy pushed my speed up to around 8MB, and a new modem pushed it up to around 10MB.)

 

Hi Bruce....

Yeah, I am rural too and 3MB is the speed  I am ever gonna have   fibre not on the horizon :(:(

Re  the cheapo routers... Wasn't suggesting as a permanent replacement to the Draytek; just a test to see if the Tunein issue is resolved.

Below are Control4 recommendations for network setup topology - This is critical to having a stable system

*********************************************************************************************************************

If using a managed network switch (not recommended) you must dumb down the switch as much as possible.

Enabling "Multicast" and "UPnP" is also recommended.

Hardware Affected: Routers, Managed Network Switches & Wireless Access Points
 

Disable These Settings on the Router, Switch, Access Point (if applicable):

-Spanning Tree

-Flow Control

-QoS (Quality of Service)

-Wireless isolation (QoS setting).

-Privacy Separator

-WMM (Under wireless settings) 

-Block Multicast / Broadcast MAC address 

-PaGP (Port Aggregation Protocol)

• Leaving these protocols on currently interferes with Control4 gear (and other consumer gear including Apple Airport/Appletalk) and can cause slow or non-responsive systems.
• These protocols are not necessary for a home networking environment

-IGMP Snooping (or any other Multicast Filtration of any kind)

• Our IP devices do not register to receive multicast from a managed switch correctly.
• With IGMP Snooping enabled you may not be able to see IP devices show up in System Manager and with this setting enabled you will also have a hard time getting all the IP devices to identify properly. 

There may be several other settings which need to be altered to achieve functionality, and we've seen some managed environments where no matter what the integrator has attempted, a functional system cannot be achieved. The above settings are the most commonly known culprits for causing network communication issues with a Control4 system.


Enable These Settings on the Router

Enable the "multicast" function on the wireless network.

Enable "UPnP" (Universal Plug and Play)

******************************************************************************************************************************

Hope this helps Bruce

cheers

$Genius

 

[brucecampbell]

Thanks for the info, I'll take a look at my router and modem settings and see if I can get it more stable.

Will also try a different modem when time permits...

 

[$Genius]

Hello all followers of this thread....

 

Here is the real deal with regard to Tunein failing to start but running fine when streaming on the Draytek 2860

Firstly, setting TCP WWW Timeout to 300 s did not solve the issue alas. Having tried all sorts of combinations of port map timeout settings, here is what has resolved the problem:

UDP Timeout 400 s

ICMP Timeout 200 s

WWW Timeout 3600 s

SYN Timeout 300 s

I do not pretend to understand what some of these actually do but given that I only need a solution and that this has definitely resolved the problem with no known side effects, I am happy ---- WOO HOO !

Hope this helps others in a similar position

Bruce.... I guess this doesn't help you as you seem not to have these settings available on your model of router?  If I can be of help in some way, please get back to me  

Kind regards everyone and thanks for all of your contributions!

 

$Genius

 

 

[Matt_Eng]

Currently at a job which has we updated earlier this week.

It has a Draytek 2860 and was on 2.9.1 with a HC800. We updated to 2.10.1 and we replaced the legacy Napster Driver with the newer version and updated the TuneIn driver aswel.

I changed the portmaptime settings in the 2860 to the settings listed below as recommended above by $Genius

UDP Timeout 400 s

ICMP Timeout 200 s

WWW Timeout 3600 s

SYN Timeout 300 s

the TCP Timeout time is still set to 86400.

 

Now all of done, I am still experiencing a problem where when TuneIn is opening on a touchscreen after being inactive (either for a few hours or after a reboot) it will not load any stations. It takes two or 3 attempts (listen, tunein, then back to home, listen, tune in, back to home, etc) to even list the radio stations.

The main problem is that this client launches a radio station from a button on a wired keypad in his bathroom every morning and since we have updated to 2.10.1 this has not working on the mornings.

 

Is there any other changes that can be made that will help this issue?

[$Genius]

Hello Matt_Eng

Frustrating isn't it!!!...  I am absolutely certain that the timeout values I suggested are correct having spent about a month on the problem so I suspect that there is something else producing a similar effect....  I will try and work with you this as best I can

 

Can you please answer a couple of questions for me:

(1) Was Tunein working perfectly before the upgarde to 2.10.1?

(2) Have you confirmed via Telnet that your router portmap times have actually been changed?  Issue the telnet command:   portmaptime -l       (lowercase L for list)

      and verify that the new settings have been invoked.

 

(3) What Ethernet switch is the traffic passing through?  (If this is a super fancy managed switch then try connecting the HC800 Lan directly to a port on the Draytek and bypass the switch).

(4) I know that connection to Director should always be done via a LAN connection but can you please try the following:

        From composer, connect to the local System Director via a WiFi connection and observe the "List Of Directors" box....

        Does the HC800 director appear immediately or is there a significant delay or as I suspect, not appear at all?

       If it doesn't appear, does repeated refresh button pushing eventually bring up the Director? - (might take about 10 button pushes)

      If Composer is having a problem any finding the director then this is pointing us back to the Draytek again....

 

So.......

Here are a couple of suggestions to explore as experiments to narrow down the issue further:

(1) Enable multicasting on the Draytek

(2) Try temporarily fitting a different brand of router. If the problem goes away, then we need to explore the Draytek further. If the problem stays then it is a C4 issue which again, we can explore further later.

 

I hope this helps you a little....

We will find a solution !!!

Regards

$G