str1der Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 Jason, I haven't seen HE so maybe I misunderstood what can and can't be done. I thought HE just couldn't register the hardware with the system. Once it's register I was under the impression that He could do anything it wanted with bindings (which I consider to fall under programming). Can someone clarify this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanE Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 HE can not learn new devices into the system, can't setup bindings between equipment (which is typically done when you add the new equipment, not later).Also, someone mentioned that it had been implied somewhere that homeowners were *unable* to setup systems. I have *never* heard anyone on these forums say that DIYers would not be able to learn to do it.It's just not in Control4's current business model.RyanE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slemay Posted March 5, 2008 Share Posted March 5, 2008 Basically - Composer HE is everything you need AFTER the initial setup of the system. Re-programming, scheduling, events, everything that you could want to do - EXCEPT adding in new hardware... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
str1der Posted March 5, 2008 Share Posted March 5, 2008 Basically - Composer HE is everything you need AFTER the initial setup of the system. Re-programming, scheduling, events, everything that you could want to do - EXCEPT adding in new hardware... Or changing the way things are connected to each other if what I read is correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanE Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 Yeah, like slemay said, *after* the initial setup.Most dealers are not going to want their homeowners re-wiring the back of the rack after the initial setup.That's likely the reason it doesn't let you change bindings. Many dealers warranty their work, including the hardware wiring, and if homeowners had the ability to change bindings, they'd be more likely to do it, including messing with the pre-installed rack wiring.(again, not that this applies to 'true' DIYers, but HE's target audience really isn't DIYers, it's *Homeowners*.)RyanE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
str1der Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 Yeah, like slemay said, *after* the initial setup.Most dealers are not going to want their homeowners re-wiring the back of the rack after the initial setup.That's likely the reason it doesn't let you change bindings. Many dealers warranty their work, including the hardware wiring, and if homeowners had the ability to change bindings, they'd be more likely to do it, including messing with the pre-installed rack wiring.(again, not that this applies to 'true' DIYers, but HE's target audience really isn't DIYers, it's *Homeowners*.)RyanEOh no problem. I was just wanting it clarified that the difference between PRO and HE is more than just adding hardware and loops. It's also bindings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slemay Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 Str1der - after the initial setup - WHY would you need to change the bindings? I mean, unless you're physically moving hardware around (and that again goes back to HARDWARE additions in Composer) - why on Earth would you want to change the bindings? I would "assume" your dealer made the best possible connections / bindings that your equipment would utilize. If not - I'd find a new dealer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
str1der Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 Str1der - after the initial setup - WHY would you need to change the bindings? I mean, unless you're physically moving hardware around (and that again goes back to HARDWARE additions in Composer) - why on Earth would you want to change the bindings? I would "assume" your dealer made the best possible connections / bindings that your equipment would utilize. If not - I'd find a new dealer! Say I'm using XBMC in the family room for streaming movies and I decide I'd like to move that to our master bedroom. Just something simple like that. I'm a DIYer so not dealing with a dealer other than for the purchasing of equipment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donmei Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 Guys, another thing that nobody has mentioned is the intangible of just being self sufficient. I recently installed radiant heat in my house during a major renovation. (completely open walls, ceilings, etc) This was not one of those marginal DIY systems that runs off a hot water heater.This is a full on, multi segment Tekmar TN4 system. It is the most advanced radiant controlled system there is with full outdoor temp reset and thermostatic feedback to the main computer so that it can tweak the water temps to maximize zone duty cycles. WAKE UP!!! So anyway, its cool stuff. I did it, I'm proud of it and it works great. Did it work as well as if a dealer set it up initially. No. How does it work now, after a year of tweaking?? Better than if a dealer did it. Because I, the DIY perfection obsessed homeowner tweaked this system to death, the outdoor resets are just about perfect. The flow ratios between loops are just about perfect. The only way to perfect this is by trial and error. I could NOT have afforded to pay a pro $100/hr to do this. I purchased all my Tekmar stuff from a local plumbing supply house. I also signed up for Tekmar and Wirsbo training and got certified on that stuff. Why go through the hassle you ask? Well, for a basic radiant system for my house, the best price I got was $26,000, after I had already installed the boiler. I've got about $9000 into my system so far and it is MUCH more sophisticated than the system I was quoted on. So . . I understand and appreciate Control4's business model. But god I wish they'd allow us to at the very least add lighting controls. I'm very close to pulling the trigger on this. I'm meeting with a local Control4 dealer next week.I want to see how he charges for doing things like adding lighting controls. I've also asked him to bring a copy HE so I can see what it can and cant do. We all know what this stuff costs mail order. So as long as he isnt looking to make a huge killing on his services, I've got high expectations.Thanks again for all of your help.Donp.s. forums like this also provide another argument for opening things up to diy's. The info here is what really makes it possible. p.p.s. selling to DIY's does NOT necessarily mean broad, open distribution via big box stores. Products like Tekmar Controls while they can be sold to me, are available only through very knowledgible dealers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rlstephens Posted March 7, 2008 Share Posted March 7, 2008 It seems to me like this boils down to a C4 business model problem. If they open up to us DIY'ers then they would disinter-mediate the dealers, and that would be bad for them right now.I think a DIY online only dealership would work, but unless they open up Composer (full) for use, then it wouldn’t work. I think the DIY dealership could be level 1 support for all issues, alleviating concerns about end-user problems, but again, I don't think they are interested right now.I'd be happy to sponsor, own, operate, staff, etc. etc. the DIY dealership if they'd allow it...Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwhitaker@revit Posted March 9, 2008 Share Posted March 9, 2008 i think diy for c4 is a bad idea. trained professionals have to call tech support. diy would put a lot of my stuff out of business. c4 isn't an x10 hobby you guys. maybe for basic stuff. i mean really why do you think we have to pay thousands of dollars for training and fly all the way to utah to be able to sell support and install this stuff. i am actually getting pretty tired of people asking for diy. if you want it fly to utah and pay a couple grand for that copy of composer pro like we have to. and then when you can't figure it all out call one of us, who by that time will no longer sell or support c4 hardware cause it went diy. always think before you ask, because you may open a can of worms and those thousands of dollars of equipment you got will be worthless junk that you can't use, oh and they will be collecting dust with that bow flex you bought of that infomercial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterM1 Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 diy would put a lot of my stuff out of business.Not if you're good at what you're doing. DIY's are less than 1% of the target population. DIYs will do the basic steps and will call in someone that knows their stuff to help with the complicated programming (hint: that's where you come in) OR when they break something in their config and need your help. In the meantime, you're still making a considerable profit out of the 99% of your clients, which are not DIYs anyway.It's not rocket science, it's simple business strategy. It works well with a different automation line I sell, don't see why it would not work with C4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwhitaker@revit Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 this has been a heated discussion before, sorry for being so brunt. it is just my personal belief that anything dealing with anything above 36volts should be handled by a legit company that has real insurance. if a home called me and said i installed 34 dimmers and keypads and i need your help programming them i would say no. i will not accept the responsibility of a novices work. i wouldn't dare work on my hvac at home. dyi is a nice thing when products are made for that. c4 is not.plug and play x10 is. a dimmer that you have to change out, watch the wattage range, turn switch legs into hots etc, is not diy.pro equipment is for pro's to install and consumers to enjoy. if you don't want to pay a pro go to radio shack. i'm sure there's some members here who are dentist, lawyers, and doctors and other professions. what do you guys think about diy legal kits, diy tooth extractions, medications for things that you think should be prescriptions. see my point, it not only takes away from our profession, it gives great companies a lesser name, and if you compare it to the examples i have given, can you depend on quality results and a great end result.? theres a lot more than shopping a catalog and reading a manual for c4. this is just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterM1 Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 You're right, everyone has different limits. You set the limit at anything above low voltage, my personal idea of a limit is anything related to gas-related work. And yet these limits mean nothing to others. C4's current position is clear and understood. Yet, there are DIYs, you can either assist and help that market or you can avoid it, it's really up to you. I'm in an interesting situation as well as the home automation suite I sell does not separate the developer interface from the front-end. You can see this as a disadvantage, or you can see past it and recognize opportunities and future benefits. Anyway, looking at all of this makes me laugh as a few years ago there were DIYs that tackled SIMPL on their own when Crestron still provided full ftp access to their software suite. Programming C4 in comparison is nothing but simple and intuitive. Talk about limits! My personal opinion is that C4 can afford to open up the low-end of the line (let's say 2-zone audio etc) to DIYs and leave the complex stuff for dealers only. From a perception PoV, this would have less of a dealer impact, IMO, that when C4 showed up for the first time in Home Depot, Tweeter and 6ave etc. This would also increase product penetration at the low-end (with installers dealing with mid-tier and AMX/Crestron on top-tier) but it really all depends on C4's long-term strategy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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