CES 2008 Speculation Thread

[collomd]

So is composer pro going to a serial/dongle or some other protection mechanism or not?

There are some people out here that have ComposerPro, got it from a C4 dealer early on, and completely setup their C4 system themselves (really not that hard)

I understand that C4 isn't going to support me if I brick my Controller, or fry a dimmer (and I have never called into support to C4 or my dealer), but I don't really understand the point of them actually spending development time and money to lock down software further.

The software is useless without the hardware, the hardware has to be purchased from a C4 dealer....(except maybe the small number of C4 items on E-bay)...Shouldn't they be concerned about maximizing their penetration in a crowded market and acquiring new customers? While we're talking about that, let's not forget about the extra cost to have and maintain 2 complete products (even if from the same code base)...

How about they finally add in some decent media management support? or improve/add the cabilities of the Navigator to show weather or other intenet information? The Rhapsody integration is a step in the right direction....(they've really made no improvement to media management in 3 years....is locking down Composer higher priority than that?)

Also, the interesting thing about one of the links above that mentions creating a system $99 at a time, would be impossible without constant interaction with the dealer. Order the dimmer, install the dimmer, have the dealer add the dimmer in Composer...and any connections.....Or buy an addiitonal remote...30 seconds to identify...

Dave C

[shaneoneill]

Will C4 be upgraded to play .RAX or .WMA files (the only two types of files Rhapsody allows you to download)?

Streaming music does not require .WMA at all - but I'm unsure as to the exact protocol required... I'm guessing it's not .RAX either - it's probably something proprietary for streaming music only. That is all that will be supported' date=' I believe, is streaming of music... NOT purchasing of music from Rhapsody... now that's not to say things won't change down the road, and I'm sure they will - C4 has said they will come out with other formats... just when is the question... and we'll have to wait some more (sigh)... [/quote']

I know streaming doesn't require WMA but if you are a full Rhapsody user (which i am), Rhapsody permits downloading of files in WMA with DRM restrictions (meaning you can use it in your own library). It's tough being an early adopter isn't it!?! Patience is tough. I am a believer in C4 though and I am really looking forward to the Rhapsody integration. It may replace my XM if the interface it better. Currently, I dont use XM with the Multi tuner, just straight thru my receiver, which has limitations. Rhapsody and C4, in my opinion, may be the best marriage of technologies yet for C4 and may (I HOPE) exponentially increase the use of and flexibility of C4 multi room music. Can't wait.

[andy.cytexone]

A little bit of a sidetrack... here's a great round-up of CES Articles/Reviews from sites around the web (from dailytech.com)

http://www.dailytech.com/DailyTech+CES+2008+Roundup/article10314.htm

[str1der]

REQUIRED to have a Control4 dealer install it AND identify it? If that is the case why is it allowed that I can walk into any 6th Ave Electronics and buy the gear myself?

Install it - no - identify it yes. But again' date=' as most of my "advanced" customer will tell you - "our" business practice is that we have no problem at all identifying hardware remotely at the cost to purchase it. Meaning if you spend $99 to purchase a light switch from us and plug it in set it up etc... call us on the phone and we'll log in remotely identify it for nothing extra (it takes us all of 5 min to do).

As for 6th Ave. Elec - I have no idea who they are or what they are and can't comment - sorry. But again - if they're selling hardware off the shelf and giving out Composer PRO - that is 100% illegal and considered pirating today... no gray here anymore... Control4 has made it very clear since releasing Composer HE - that this is wrong. Now if they don't give it out - but sell you the hardware and don't install it - that's their business practice, and I highly suggest you find a different dealer to do business with.[/quote']

For you to do that doesn't the user have to pay to have 4SITE. If they don't have that you can't connect remotely or am I mistaken.

So if a dealer sends his tech to C4 training to get certified then gets rid of the tech the policy of C4 is to allow that dealer to continue to claim to be a C4 certified dealer?

[slemay]

I know streaming doesn't require WMA but if you are a full Rhapsody user (which i am), Rhapsody permits downloading of files in WMA with DRM restrictions (meaning you can use it in your own library). It's tough being an early adopter isn't it!?! Patience is tough. I am a believer in C4 though and I am really looking forward to the Rhapsody integration. It may replace my XM if the interface it better. Currently, I dont use XM with the Multi tuner, just straight thru my receiver, which has limitations. Rhapsody and C4, in my opinion, may be the best marriage of technologies yet for C4 and may (I HOPE) exponentially increase the use of and flexibility of C4 multi room music. Can't wait.

The Rhapsody integration, as I understand it, is ONLY for streaming purposes... nothing else - but, since I've only seen it at CEDIA (and read about it at CES) - I can't say that those features will not be added down the road. They could be - but again, my understand in the next release is JUST a streaming protocal.

[slemay]

For you to do that doesn't the user have to pay to have 4SITE. If they don't have that you can't connect remotely or am I mistaken.

So if a dealer sends his tech to C4 training to get certified then gets rid of the tech the policy of C4 is to allow that dealer to continue to claim to be a C4 certified dealer?

If you have Composer HE - you get 4Sight with it. As for the status of of the dealer - I'm not 100% sure the "official" stance on this, but I know their intention was to have a tech come out, get trained, go back and re-train others in the staff. I would HAVE to think that to some point that is what is occurring if a dealer continues to sell C4 after the tech leaves... but then again, from some of the nightmare stories I've read here - that could be just what "IS" happening... I guess it goes back to making sure you find a good, reliable dealer! You all, as customers, should interview your dealers first and make sure they know what they're doing, have been around a while, and will be around a while more to support you. Don't leave it to just the dealer to interview you!!!!

[slemay]

So is composer pro going to a serial/dongle or some other protection mechanism or not?

There are some people out here that have ComposerPro, got it from a C4 dealer early on, and completely setup their C4 system themselves (really not that hard)

I understand that C4 isn't going to support me if I brick my Controller, or fry a dimmer (and I have never called into support to C4 or my dealer), but I don't really understand the point of them actually spending development time and money to lock down software further.

The software is useless without the hardware, the hardware has to be purchased from a C4 dealer....(except maybe the small number of C4 items on E-bay)...Shouldn't they be concerned about maximizing their penetration in a crowded market and acquiring new customers? While we're talking about that, let's not forget about the extra cost to have and maintain 2 complete products (even if from the same code base)...

How about they finally add in some decent media management support? or improve/add the cabilities of the Navigator to show weather or other intenet information? The Rhapsody integration is a step in the right direction....(they've really made no improvement to media management in 3 years....is locking down Composer higher priority than that?)

Also, the interesting thing about one of the links above that mentions creating a system $99 at a time, would be impossible without constant interaction with the dealer. Order the dimmer, install the dimmer, have the dealer add the dimmer in Composer...and any connections.....Or buy an addiitonal remote...30 seconds to identify...

Dave C

Dave - before you go off and cause yourself to have a stroke - go read other forum posts - as most of your rants have been addressed previously and many comments on them already.

[collomd]

My concern is the DONGLE issue, not the other stuff...(which there are no other posts I can find here other than this thread)

Well actually I have read the other posts on my comments....Receiving no answer or the standard C4 answer of:

- We're working on it

- We can't tell you what release it's in

- Once we tell you what's release it's in, we can't tell you when that release will be out

All of which I have been patient with, because I have been willing to wait. But now what do I get for waiting, the inability to upgrade to actually use any of these features when they finally get done....

It's not the details of my comments on specific functionlity, that bothers me, it's that now I'm going to pretty surely get blocked out of the future upgrades which means it doesn't matter when they get done. I'll never get to take advantage of them....

So far I'd say I've been pretty satisifed with C4 (not ecstatic but satisfied), but I have to say this is the sort of thing that makes it not viable for me to keep the stuff around....Which REALLY sucks...

I still fail to see the economics of spending time and development money on locking down this software....if C4 we're in a dominate place in the market, and their market was eroding due to piracy (which would actually not happen since they aren't producing revenues of software sales (except HE)) then I could see it.....

Dave C

[slemay]

Dave - any market of any size company - when their product is used in an illegal manor, erodes away at their structure - history has shown that time and time again. From an end user point of view - no... from a company profitability point of view - yes... and if the company isn't around tomorrow - what good was it to get it for free today?

Bottom line Dave - and I'm sorry you don't agree - is that Composer HE is out there for you and all the end users who want to do all this stuff themselves. The functions that have been removed from HE are so tiny - that 99.9% of the users here will not miss them. The .1% that do - never really had good intentions to begin with - sorry.

As for those other features - they're coming and yes, they are in the forums as to when... but I'll recap:

- Improved Media Management Support: Next release (Q1/Q2)

- Improve/add the cabilities of the Navigator to show weather or other intenet information?: Already there using the camera agent - as for internet surfing - do you really want your home controller to be exposed to viruses, trojans and what not? Not I... I really don't want my system getting a virus and the lights / TV's stop working.

- The Rhapsody integration is a step in the right direction....(they've really made no improvement to media management in 3 years....is locking down Composer higher priority than that?): Again - they've publically mentioned that media management was a major upgrade in this next release - both in press statements, CEDIA and CES - they've shown the new interface... and improvements.

[str1der]

For you to do that doesn't the user have to pay to have 4SITE. If they don't have that you can't connect remotely or am I mistaken.

So if a dealer sends his tech to C4 training to get certified then gets rid of the tech the policy of C4 is to allow that dealer to continue to claim to be a C4 certified dealer?

If you have Composer HE - you get 4Sight with it. As for the status of of the dealer - I'm not 100% sure the "official" stance on this' date=' but I know their intention was to have a tech come out, get trained, go back and re-train others in the staff. I would HAVE to think that to some point that is what is occurring if a dealer continues to sell C4 after the tech leaves... but then again, from some of the nightmare stories I've read here - that could be just what "IS" happening... I guess it goes back to making sure you find a good, reliable dealer! You all, as customers, should interview your dealers first and make sure they know what they're doing, have been around a while, and will be around a while more to support you. Don't leave it to just the dealer to interview you!!!![/quote']

Slemay

Are you saying that if you buy HE you no longer have to pay the subscription fee for 4site?

[tumult]

I think what he meant to say was that when you buy composer he, it comes with a free 1-year subscription to 4sight. But, getting back on topic;) does anyone have any information, any, about what was shown at the partner pavillion???

tum

[PeterM1]

Does ComposerHE handle firmware updates and driver creation/management?

thanks

[RyanE]

Peter,

The system was designed from the start to be a Dealer-installed system. The fact that some users have gotten copies of ComposerPro (either from their dealer or though other channels) does not change the fact that it was designed to be a dealer-installed system.

Control4 has a vested interest in helping those dealers retain their customers, and this includes restricting access to ComposerPro. Dealers warranty the work they do in a system, I can certainly understand their not wanting their customers to change things around and still assume the warranty responsibility.

I don't think we'll be going the dongle route (I personally dislike them and think they cause more problems than they solve), but I do suspect we'll have something more along the lines of how ComposerHE is protected, which very well may keep you from updating your system in the future without a dealer doing that part of your system install/upgrade.

I'm sorry if this is inconvenient to you. Unless Control4 changes it's policy of being a dealer-installed system, your best bet going forward may be to find a dealer who is willing to remotely add devices for you and update your system, but then you can do all other tasks through ComposerHE.

RyanE

[PeterM1]

Ryan,

I should have been more clear, I was replying to slemay's comment that ComposerHE is 99.9% identical to ComposerPro with the exception of the following functions:

Quoting:

1) Composer HE is 99.9% complete of Composer Pro... the only things missing are:

a) Identifying new hardware

Creating programming loops (which are dangerous in themselves).

Hence I was asking if firmware updates are possible as part of ComposerHE.

I am well aware of C4's policy of dealer-installed systems only and fully respect that. For disclosure purposes, I am a dealer for other audio/video/lighting & home automation solutions that I intent to continue to deploy for my clients. I am not interested in becoming a C4 dealer at this point for reasons that don't belong in this thread.

I also like to tinker on my spare time. Judging from the fact that this (non-dealer-only) forum exists and has quite a few C4 users, I am not alone. Which is why I bought some basic C4 hardware and yes, have also gained access to ComposerPro. I neither rely nor plan to rely on C4 gear in my home at this point (my home runs on the products I sell). Quite the opposite actually, I would not hesitate to call a C4 dealer if I wanted to integrate something complex in my "home test environment". On the other hand, I do have an issue of not being able to integrate something simple, let's say a dimmer, without coordinating and waiting days for a dealer to dial-in and perform a rather simple action.

That fine line of "hands-off customer" vs. "educated customer" may of course lie elsewhere for different people.

To some, lack of device identification capability may mean sticking with the last unlocked version of ComposerPro. Cons: no support of newer hardware and no bug fixes. Others may need to find open-minded dealers that are willing to work with educated customers, and this would be the ideal solution, IMO. Today this means getting a copy of ComposerPro, tomorrow it may mean some sort of quick 'dial-in, identify devices, don't do anything else' scenario.

-- Peter

Peter,

The system was designed from the start to be a Dealer-installed system. The fact that some users have gotten copies of ComposerPro (either from their dealer or though other channels) does not change the fact that it was designed to be a dealer-installed system.

Control4 has a vested interest in helping those dealers retain their customers, and this includes restricting access to ComposerPro. Dealers warranty the work they do in a system, I can certainly understand their not wanting their customers to change things around and still assume the warranty responsibility.

I don't think we'll be going the dongle route (I personally dislike them and think they cause more problems than they solve), but I do suspect we'll have something more along the lines of how ComposerHE is protected, which very well may keep you from updating your system in the future without a dealer doing that part of your system install/upgrade.

I'm sorry if this is inconvenient to you. Unless Control4 changes it's policy of being a dealer-installed system, your best bet going forward may be to find a dealer who is willing to remotely add devices for you and update your system, but then you can do all other tasks through ComposerHE.

RyanE

[RyanE]

Thanks for the clarification.

To answer your update question, I don't believe update manager is available in Composer HE.

So, maybe it's 99%, not 99.9%...

My own opinion is that I definitely agree that certain homeowners are sophisticated enough to be able to DIY Control4, but it's a moot point unless Control4 allows it and supports it. Allowing end users to do it without adequately supporting them or simplifying it for them can only cause harm to Control4's reputation as the not-quite-sophisticated-enough users mess things up.

A Control4 system and Control4's reputation are only as good as the installer.

RyanE

[str1der]

Come on C4. Follow the Lifeware model with direct to consumer sales.

[c44me]

Thanks for the clarification.

To answer your update question, I don't believe update manager is available in Composer HE.

So, maybe it's 99%, not 99.9%...

My own opinion is that I definitely agree that certain homeowners are sophisticated enough to be able to DIY Control4, but it's a moot point unless Control4 allows it and supports it. Allowing end users to do it without adequately supporting them or simplifying it for them can only cause harm to Control4's reputation as the not-quite-sophisticated-enough users mess things up.

A Control4 system and Control4's reputation are only as good as the installer.

RyanE

This is/was baked into their business model from day 1. You really think they expended so much time/energy/resources on the packaging and detailed step_by_step documentation in each component for dealers?

It is a matter of time....

[punkrock]

<b>Too bad they are doing this... i think those who are tech 1 and 2 certified should be given the ability to still work on gear. Not sure what they are worried about. the 10 items that are for sale on ebay every week are certainly not gonna hurt the company... I would agree in a registration type of system but locking it down is only going to spread bad rumors about the product. In a matter of months a small market could loose a lot of potential (and existing) customers. Plus just the thought of having to have a "good" dealer to help at the drop of a dime makes my ears itch. Maybe cytex is the dream dealer, but you are the minority. Getting a tech to come out (when you need it) and id a switch may seem like nothing to you guys, but to a dealer who has 2 or 3 programmers who cant even tell me the difference between an LCD and a Plasma... you get what I'm saying here... not so fun. Also none of these guys will justify a truck roll out for a 100 dollar item. oh yeah And letting them on my network with their virus infested laptop? no thanks. just hand over the dongle and wait outside... ill be done in 2 minutes. maybe if is cold and wet outside you can come in and tap the switch 4 times for me.

i suppose I'm stuck with 1.3 until the end of time.

I can see becoming a big issue really phast. oops I mean fast... my bad )

[slemay]

FYI - access to your "network" is restricted via VPN tunnel ONLY to your controller. So it's safe to say, their "infested" PC's aren't going to hurt your other items in your network.

[henniae]

FYI - access to your "network" is restricted via VPN tunnel ONLY to your controller. So it's safe to say, their "infested" PC's aren't going to hurt your other items in your network.

This is not true. If I go to a clients house and plug my computer into their network I am on the clients network. The clients network is fully exposed to whatever is on y PC. the only time the VPN tunner is used is if I access the controller remotely from outside the clients network. The poster (punkrock) is right to be scared of letting someone into his house to connect to his network.

[RyanE]

I think Shawn is arguing that a *good* dealer who is responsive to his customers would ID a new dimmer remotely for his customer, which *would* be through the VPN.

It is definitely all about trust. If you don't trust your dealer, you've got the wrong dealer.

I would let Shawn or the CYTEX guys have access to my home network and Control4 system remotely or in person, no problem. There are quite a few dealers I would trust with my Control4 system, but any I didn't know, I'd have to build up a level of trust with them, including *asking* them what their plan for protection of their laptops from viruses, etc. is, as well as their automation know-how.

RyanE

[slemay]

This is not true. If I go to a clients house and plug my computer into their network I am on the clients network. The clients network is fully exposed to whatever is on y PC. the only time the VPN tunner is used is if I access the controller remotely from outside the clients network. The poster (punkrock) is right to be scared of letting someone into his house to connect to his network.

I was talking from remote. Of course if I'm onsite and plug in - I'll see the customers entire network - unless it was setup in a DMZ... and if the customer is that scared - I would HIGHLY SUGGEST that he/she get the C4 network put into a DMZ to avoid just those risks. It'll cost extra - but for some customers, that "extra" is worth the peace of mind.

[collomd]

Gees, I really hope that this is not their plan for the "connected home"

-> Improve/add the cabilities of the Navigator to show weather or other intenet information?: Already there using the camera agent

So this is the full strategy, hope you find a JPEG or WEBCAM of any information that you would want to see on your MTS or any Navigator? Then once you find a "source" for your magic weather page hope they never change their web page design, file structure, or publishing model or stop publishing as a jpeg and switch to text based.....

As for the dongle/Composer PRO stuff I still think that the C4 is spending valuable time in protectionary tactics when they should be in a high aggressive customer acquisition cycle. Be protectionist when you have the market, not when you're trying to capture it...but whatever...

I want C4 to succeed, I have an investment in them, and until recently was openly spreading the word to friends, family and others. Which quite frankly is cirticial to C4 if it is going to succeed....word of mouth....

Either way, C4 does what it sees fit regardles of what I say here, so there's not much point in ranting about it.....

Dave

[slemay]

Dave - nothing I say will make you happy - so I'm sorry you feel the way you do. Control4 is a product that has been ALWAYS sourced directly through dealers - any other way to get it, install it etc... was NEVER (EVER!!!) intended. The "hobbiest" community is great - and C4 being a less expensive product - certainly has attracted them (you) - but it was never intended that you get the software for free. This is 100% why they came out with an HE product and why they STILL made it that you went through the dealer community.

C4 spends a lot of time and money on creating products etc... I'm sorry you don't agree with where they make decisions - but it's been my experience, as one of the first dealers with them, that they do listen quite closely to their dealers and what "THEIR" customers are asking for. Sure Internet is a request - BUT - and I do agree 100% with this - the moment you open full Internet up to a TV / Touch Screen / MTS - you get all the other problems that go along with it: Viruses, Trojans, Popups and more! Thus you have to create combative solutions for those too - is THAT worth their time and effort? I don't think so - as once they do it - they have to maintain it forever (as viruses, Trojans etc... are ALWAYS changing). Can you imagine your TV coming on in the middle of the night? or the system crashing on a regular basis? I don't look forward to that day at all.

I know, for years, there has been some talk of a subscription "PUSH" service of some sort that would push out local weather, stocks and news to your system - for a price (or maybe it would be part of 4Sight) - I dunno where this stands, or even if it's still in the pipeline... but that would be the best solution - IMHO.

Give them a break and give them time - they came out with a solution 6 months ago to finally get weather & traffic into your system - it may not be the best way to do it - BUT IT WORKS AND IT'S FREE! Are they going to improve upon it over time??? SURE... just like a million other things - but it takes time. You want it all today - go buy a Crestron system, which is 4x more expensive and also MUCH MORE tightly guarded so that end users can't program it (not to mention 10x more difficult to program).

This is my last post to you on this - as I seem to keep being drawn in and I'm really really getting sick of negative posts... if you don't like it - don't use it - find something else. Period.

[PeterM1]

This is not true. If I go to a clients house and plug my computer into their network I am on the clients network. The clients network is fully exposed to whatever is on y PC. the only time the VPN tunner is used is if I access the controller remotely from outside the clients network. The poster (punkrock) is right to be scared of letting someone into his house to connect to his network.

I was talking from remote. Of course if I'm onsite and plug in - I'll see the customers entire network - unless it was setup in a DMZ... and if the customer is that scared - I would HIGHLY SUGGEST that he/she get the C4 network put into a DMZ to avoid just those risks. It'll cost extra - but for some customers' date=' that "extra" is worth the peace of mind.[/quote']

Trying to help (I think ) by changing the thread direction a bit while still on topic. I always firewall home automation solutions where a PC or non-WPA2 wireless devices are present. It's just good practice and saves both me and my clients lots of trouble down the road. The Sonicwall TZ series is my favorite one but really anything with SPI capabilities will do.