CES 2008 Speculation Thread

[joed]

Since this argument over Dealer vs Hobbiest has come up again, I am curious how many dealers would drop Control4 as an offering if they decided to deal directly with customers?

Control4 isn't dumb. Controlling distribution and quality control over installations through dealers makes perfect sense when you are a new company. But at some point it will be hard for Control4 to ignore the growing direct to consumer marketplace.

My experience at CES was much like everyone else's. I was less than impressed. I also think the GUI on the Control4 is looking a little "tired" when compared to other products I saw. Who else thinks they need to make the GUI look a little more sexy?

[loudsubz]

I know for one if control 4 started selling direct that we would probably would start looking at other companies. Its just to hard to try and offer something that is sold at a big box store.

[slemay]

1) They'll never go 100% direct, IMHO - and ask your self why they would? Does Elan? Crestron? AMX? No - they all go through dealers.

2) They WILL however, go semi-direct, ie: through Home Depot type installations... but these will be "pre-packaged" systems already to go and plug in (already configured) and they will NOT have Composer either... anything advanced will be "you need to contact the dealer in your area".

3) Yes I agree - the interface is getting a little tired - but if you were at CES (or CEDIA) you saw glimpses of the new interface for Media Management - and from what I've seen - I think you'll all be very excited / happy once again!

[joed]

I was at CES and my impression is that they are not doing enough to update the interface.

While not a home automation company I was most impressed with Hillcrest Labs.

[joed]

For the dealers..... If they did got partially direct, just think of all the money you could make by fixing everyone's messed up installs

The argument that Crestron, AMX, etc doesn't sell direct so Control4 doesn't have do doesn't hold water to me. Home automation is going mainstream and if it isn't Control4 that sells direct then another large company will.

[slemay]

Jdorman - I've thought a GREAT DEAL about what you're saying - and the problem is simple: Home Automation, as simple as it may seem, is a VERY COMPLEX. Let's turn the tables a little and go into a different industry... you certainly could go to Home Depot and buy all the supplies to build your house from scratch. They sell EVERYTHING YOU NEED to do this. But do you? 99% of the people will not... why? Because it is a complex issue.

Now I know I'm exasperating this a little, but I'm doing it on purpose to emphasize my point. Sure - one room or two rooms - even an entire house - SOME OF YOU can do this - but the vast majority of the people out there can not. This has been proven time and time again with other products that have come and gone and their entire model is end user. I'm not saying that Control4 won't ever go direct (I can't say that either about Crestron, AMX, Elan etc...) - but it doesn't make sense at this time... but I think if anyone ever does - yes it will be Control4 - as they've built a company around the model to be ready for something to that extent. As I mentioned already though, I think you'll see the products in "box" form first at Home Depots, and Best Buys... when (and if) that ever takes off - then you may see some changes. In those current models, in the markets that they are trying them in right now, YES - the dealers are the "support" people for them.

I've heard, even in some markets, that Home Depot's have teamed up with the dealers in those markets - and yes, they are making money cleaning up the mess - but the problem comes back to that those people think the product should work out of the box and be simple to configure... and the real issue is - that's NEVER going to happen... it's too complex of a concept to make "that" easy for the end user - and thus why, IMHO, it'll never be a 100% direct product to the end user - dealers will always be involved.

[takitezsdc]

OUCH!!! Shawn your hurting my eyes with that one! Please break up your sentences!! /manhug

Scott

[joed]

I wouldn't expect anything else from a dealer

I really don't want to have this argument for the 100th time in this thread. It is tiring and nothing is every accomplished.

Bottom line is:

Dealers think that only dealers can make this stuff work while DIY'ers think they don't need the dealers for 100% of their requirements.

I would hope that to grow their marketshare and revenue Control4 would come up with a direct to consumer model.

This is the last you will hear from me on this topic.

I would like to hear everyone else's view on Control4's GUI. I still think that it doesn't look sexy enough.

- Joe

[MSI]

I agree. Sometimes the only available local dealers do not have the knowledge that some of the end users have.

My vote would be to let both dealers and end users customize the setup.

C4 is great. I love it. However, the GUI is in need of an update, especially how it handles music control.

[slemay]

OUCH!!! Shawn your hurting my eyes with that one! Please break up your sentences!! /manhug

Sorry - I kept typing and never looked back to proof read it. Better now? LOL

[slemay]

Dealers think that only dealers can make this stuff work while DIY'ers think they don't need the dealers for 100% of their requirements.

Bottom line, and please don't take any offense or flame at all (as this is not that at all!!!) - my "EXPERIENCE" is quite the opposite... and please... I don't want to sound arrogant on this either... but, being that I support a good deal of "long distance" end users, all of who thought they could handle working their system on their own... I can say quite the opposite. I think end users are good with some basic to intermediate functions of the system, but a vast minority are able to handle it most of it. Now again - PLEASE - don't flame me for stating my experience, and NO - I'm not trying to be rude or sound arrogant at all on this.

I think with training - end users CAN do it all... yes... and Scott, being one of those customers (nothing new - he's posted this publicly here already) is well on his way to being one of those customers - but he's also asking a ton of questions, pays me to fix the mistakes, BUT HE LEARNS FROM THOSE ERRORS too!!! But the big difference - I deal with this for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week - PLUS - had more than 40 hours of training from Control4 over a two year period (and continue to be trained).

That's the difference between an end user and a dealer (hahahha... ok - suppose to be the difference...) Dealers are trained and end users are not. Now, as we've all learned already here - some dealers are idiots and never took the training, yet installing it... and that's a shame, not to mention give other dealers a VERY bad name.

Now - all of that said and done... I think these boards are a great place for people to learn - and that's one major reason I sit here and reply to a good deal of posts here. I think Composer HE is great for 99% of the end users... and yes, 1% would benefit from Composer Pro - but until all end users are experts - then I stick by my guns stating that HE is the product - not Pro. However - the 1% that are experts - I'd like to hire and have them represent my company!!!!

Now... as for the interface... well - it's simple. If it changed a lot - it would be "difficult". Though, I do want to see skins available, and I believe that's coming. PLUS - the new music interface is a complete re-write - thus wait and see - and you may be surprised!

[punkrock]

whens the latest edition coming out?

[joed]

Now... as for the interface... well - it's simple. If it changed a lot - it would be "difficult". Though, I do want to see skins available, and I believe that's coming. PLUS - the new music interface is a complete re-write - thus wait and see - and you may be surprised!

Ummm.....I said I was at CES and I saw the new interface. While an improvement, I was not overly impressed.

I am not saying the logic behind the interface needs to change, they just need to make it prettier.

[slemay]

I agree - and I "HOPE" the skinable system comes about SOON! I know the guys here at Cynex had been working on skins... but the problem is that when a new upgrade comes out - it breaks anything that is done... so we have to wait until the "skin engine" becomes a real reality... and I'm unsure when that will happen... but I am with you on this - as long as the original skin remains in tact for those customers that just won't learn anything else.

[neil12011]

Punk rock,

I am in a similar position, I am tech I certified as was let go by my company....I have the latest composer pro, but after the next one comes out, I won't be able to update!! It really bothers me that I went to Utah to learn and will not be able to keep my chops up with new editions...So I feel your pain, I tinker constantly with my own system and would scream if I had to call someone to "identify" a switch, when I can do it right now myself...So you're not the only one in that boat...Also, any of you guys at CYTEX ever talk to Dan? He's a hard guy to get a hold of!!!

Neil

[hike]

Punk rock,

I am in a similar position, I am tech I certified as was let go by my company....I have the latest composer pro, but after the next one comes out, I won't be able to update!! It really bothers me that I went to Utah to learn and will not be able to keep my chops up with new editions...So I feel your pain, I tinker constantly with my own system and would scream if I had to call someone to "identify" a switch, when I can do it right now myself...So you're not the only one in that boat...Also, any of you guys at CYTEX ever talk to Dan? He's a hard guy to get a hold of!!!

Neil

It is incredibly stupid IMHO.

What HARM is caused by end users being able to install their own gear? I just bought a bunch of motion sensors and contact switches from CardAccess. With Composer Pro I can install and identify them myself. If I get stuck or want a dealers help I am more than happy to pay for their expertise. If a dealer wants to charge me MORE because I did not buy the gear through them fine. I should only have to pay for expertise if I NEED it, not because someone forces it on me.

What does Control4 want me to do if I decide tonight I want to install a dimmer?

Call my dealer, wait for him to call me back. Order the dimmer. He charges me full retail of course (fine) plus freight and taxes and he places the order with C4. I get the dimmer days/weeks later. I install it myself and then I call my dealer and say, OK I have it in, lets ID it. I wait til he calls me back again....(Jeopardy theme music playing......)

He calls me back and says ok, tap the button 4 times. I say I can't cause you just called me at my office. We need to do this on a Saturday or early in the morning or late at night......So we finally coordinate a day and time. I sit by my phone and wait for the call....he calls late or not at all, I have to call him back, he got tied up.....finally we get it identified...its a week after I installed the light. He charges me $99 for the programming time (maybe some don't...I wonder what most dealers policy is on this). What a PITA! Suddenly a product that is supposed to make my life easier makes it harder......

Another related issue.....

Let's say I want to upgrade my 10.5" Touchscreen to Vers 2 or my amp to vers 3. What do I do with my old units that work perfectly? Will my dealer buy them back from me?

I doubt it! Sooo I sell the old ones to folks that are happy with the older units. I can't do that however if they can't find a dealer willing to install it for them because of warranty concerns etc. So all of a sudden there is no market for gear that is only 1-2 years old. In that scenario I probably don't upgrade .... and C4 and the dealers misses out on the sale.

I am not CEDIA or C4 certified and I was able to figure out most of this on my own and with help on this and other websites. When I needed a pro's help I paid for it.

I am thinking that I am just going to have to buy all the gear I can ASAP, install it and live with .318.

I would think the DIY crowd is very small. I don't see the average C4 consumer having a problem with the restrictions. I would be happy if C4 charged me double the cost of HE for PRO. For me it would be worth it.

[RyanE]

hike,

We've been through this over and over on this forum, and it's kind of pointless to gripe about Control4's policy.

It is what it is, and ranting about what it is doesn't change the fact.

RyanE

[hike]

hike,

We've been through this over and over on this forum, and it's kind of pointless to gripe about Control4's policy.

It is what it is, and ranting about what it is doesn't change the fact.

RyanE

Sorry, I thought C4 cared about what their customers thought.

Silly me.

[punkrock]

just a question... how is the new composer and/or upgrade process going to happen? i noticed the update manager doesn't connect any longer. (that could just be me though)

[neil12011]

that's just the thing, there are a few of us that could use it...I'm tech I certified and after .318 that's probably it for me since I won't be able to get the newer versions of pro....Control4 certainly is not in the business of looking to fulfill the needs of hobbyists, and as much as I hate it, I'll probably be a sideliner after the new release....But it would be nice for those of us who can prove our certification to at least get in on new versions of pro....But I agree with C4, if you're just a customer, then you should get HE....Those of us who, bought our plane tickets, flew to Utah, and passed our exams, maybe they should throw us a cookie.....not going to happen but would be nice.....My thoughts are that if you want something bad enough you'll make it happen....If we want to be involved that much in C4, then we'll either become dealers or work for someone or whatever....I just happen to really be into Control4 alot...I tinker constantly to the chagrin of my wife, but I absolutely love the product....I just hope I can eventually get back into the C4 loop....

[neil12011]

good call, anyone know what is going on with the update server???

[RyanE]

Worked for me tonight.

RyanE

[PeterM1]

I couldn't connect yesterday around 11pm, will try again tonight.

[jbs]

As someone who loves tinkering with his system and who would be delighted to see more control in users hands, I will say that I also understand the business reasons why C4 would not do so. Internet message boards are rarely a representative sample of the population, so even if half the users on this board would be capable to managing their own system successfully, it's probably only 5% of the general users who would be interested, and only 1% who could do so successfully. The problem with just saying, "Well those who can't manage it will spend money with a dealer fixing it" is that it doesn't always work that way. Some will say, "Oops, I goofed, OK Slemay what will it cost to fix this?" But a lot of them will get angry, frustrated, bitter, and turn to boards like this one to gripe about their $^#@#%$ C4 system.

Again, I'm not suggesting any users who've posted here a desire to have greater access would be the types to publicy gripe if they screwed it up. On the contrary I think most of us here would probably be able to use it successfully, and those who didn't are at least knowledgeable enough to know they screwed it up themselves, and take their lumps. But again, this is not representative of the general population and it only takes a few angry and vocal users to trash the reputation of a company with (IMHO) excellent products. Put yourself in the position of a homeowner ready to build their dream house. They log on here and read some horror stories, they don't know enough about C4 to make the distinction between a DIY nightmare and a bad product . . . and C4 loses a $30,000 sale.

HOWEVER, I'd like to think there's a compromise, one that self-selects the people who are serious hobbyists, with some technical skills, a commitment to the product, and the real potential to become enthusiastic and vocal supporters of Control4. HERE'S WHAT I WOULD LOVE TO SEE C4 DO: Training and certification, for individuals. Basically, put me through the same training program they do for dealers. Charge me more since C4 is not going to expect to sell nearly as much to me as they'd sell through a dealer, and certify me so that they can be confident that I know everything I need to know to keep my system running, and potentially put some restrictions on sales to limit it to their own needs.

This would create a relatively small segment of users who would likely become much more avid purchasers and users of C4 products, and most importantly would be likely to innovate and push the envelope in ways that it's simply not economically viable for a dealer to do with someone else's system (i.e. I'm going to invest a lot more time in tweaking my own system than a dealer can afford to invest in my one system). I'd be excited about taking a week's vacation to Utah . . . would any of the other users out there find a sort of "tiered dealership" program attractive?

--Jason

[strange_brew]

HOWEVER, I'd like to think there's a compromise, one that self-selects the people who are serious hobbyists, with some technical skills, a commitment to the product, and the real potential to become enthusiastic and vocal supporters of Control4. HERE'S WHAT I WOULD LOVE TO SEE C4 DO: Training and certification, for individuals. Basically, put me through the same training program they do for dealers. Charge me more since C4 is not going to expect to sell nearly as much to me as they'd sell through a dealer, and certify me so that they can be confident that I know everything I need to know to keep my system running, and potentially put some restrictions on sales to limit it to their own needs.

This would create a relatively small segment of users who would likely become much more avid purchasers and users of C4 products, and most importantly would be likely to innovate and push the envelope in ways that it's simply not economically viable for a dealer to do with someone else's system (i.e. I'm going to invest a lot more time in tweaking my own system than a dealer can afford to invest in my one system). I'd be excited about taking a week's vacation to Utah . . . would any of the other users out there find a sort of "tiered dealership" program attractive?

--Jason

Where do I sign up! While a week might be a bit much, I think this could be handled via webinar or similar type of "online learning". I would add that you might create some dealers out of this group as well.