Control4 with PIR

[J to the D]

I am trying to use a Control4 puck to override a PIR and becoming a little stumped. 

My plan was to provide a live and neutral to the puck and then the switched live to the live out of the PIR. That way the PIR works as normal but you can override by switching the lights on with the puck.

Unfortunately this doesn’t seem to work and when I turn the lights on from the puck the relay tiggers on the PIR meaning when I have turned the puck off agin the lights remain on and the PIR won’t seem to turn off. 

Any ideas on what I might be doing wrong?

[mujtaba.khokhar]

You might have wired the puck wrong

You’ll have to wire the pir as an external switch, you’ll have to get power to the pir and use the relay outputs of the pir and wore them in to the aux connections on the puck

Although I’ve never wired the pucks like this i just use zigbee pirs the following image might help you

Thanks

Muj


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[mujtaba.khokhar]

Sorry forgot to add you’ll then have to define the properties in compose for it to work correctly

Thanks
M


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[J to the D]

36 minutes ago, mujtaba.khokhar said:

Sorry forgot to add you’ll then have to define the properties in compose for it to work correctly

Thanks
M


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Thanks for the info but it shouldn’t be that complicated and to be fair have no idea how to use the aux and led terminals.
 

The puck has a constant live and neutral for power and a single switch live which toggles the lights on/off. 

When adding the PIR you are simply providing two different power options to the lights, puck or PIR. 
 

Scenario 1 - Puck switches on = lights on regardless of PIR state. 
 

Scenario 2 - Puck is off and PIR is in the off state = no lights on. 
 

Scenario 3 - Puck is off but PIR is in the on state = lights on. 
 

I think my issue is the PIR is detecting current in the live out when the Puck turns the lights on. This triggers the PIR relay to always on therefore meaning the lights never turn off. I need a diode to stop the current travelling into the puck from the live out. 

[mujtaba.khokhar]

I get that but that’s not how the puck works, it’s not designed to do that.

I will try and do my best to help you.

Which pir are you using? Do you have a wiring diagram for it?

Try this

Connect power to your pir from the puck and the switch live from the pir to aux 1, the neutrals should all be bridged.

Then you’ll just have to program it and it should work

Thanks
M


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[J to the D]

23 minutes ago, mujtaba.khokhar said:

I get that but that’s not how the puck works, it’s not designed to do that.

I will try and do my best to help you.

Which pir are you using? Do you have a wiring diagram for it?

Try this

Connect power to your pir from the puck and the switch live from the pir to aux 1, the neutrals should all be bridged.

Then you’ll just have to program it and it should work

Thanks
M


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Ahh I think you’re on to something here, thank you. I have another circuit in the house with a wireless keypad dimmer and a PIR which works no problem. I was expecting the puck to be the same. I thought the puck operated like a switch and basically turned the load on/off? I was expecting the PIR to be the connection to the lights and just feed the puck switch live into the switched live of the PIR. That way if the puck turns on the lights will come on. The issue is the PIR doesn’t seem to like it working that way. 
 

Here is a link to the PIR manual:

https://www.steinel.de/out/media/operationmanual/10259_110073994_BDAL_SENSIQ_ENET_26_SPRACHEN.pdf
 

How does the aux on the puck work? Is it a simple secondary switch so if the PIR turns on the puck triggers and as soon as the PIR turns off the puck will turn off? Of course the puck can be used in a normal way with Control4. 

[mujtaba.khokhar]

Ahh I think you’re on to something here, thank you. I have another circuit in the house with a wireless keypad dimmer and a PIR which works no problem. I was expecting the puck to be the same. I thought the puck operated like a switch and basically turned the load on/off? I was expecting the PIR to be the connection to the lights and just feed the puck switch live into the switched live of the PIR. That way if the puck turns on the lights will come on. The issue is the PIR doesn’t seem to like it working that way. 
 
Here is a link to the PIR manual:
https://www.steinel.de/out/media/operationmanual/10259_110073994_BDAL_SENSIQ_ENET_26_SPRACHEN.pdf
 
How does the aux on the puck work? Is it a simple secondary switch so if the PIR turns on the puck triggers and as soon as the PIR turns off the puck will turn off? Of course the puck can be used in a normal way with Control4. 

No problem

Let me know how you get on

& that’s a pretty cool PIR!

The aux is basically just a switch it can be programmed to do a few different things like toggle, on, off, or keypad.

If your PIR didn’t have all the functionality it does i would have set it to keypad and programmed in what I needed the AUX input to do. For your case best to leave it on load toggle.

And by doing it this way you’re not cutting power off to the puck and your feedback will work also so if the motion it triggered and the light is turned on you’ll see this inside control4 too

Thanks
M


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[J to the D]

10 hours ago, mujtaba.khokhar said:

 

 

No problem

Let me know how you get on

& that’s a pretty cool PIR!

The aux is basically just a switch it can be programmed to do a few different things like toggle, on, off, or keypad.

If your PIR didn’t have all the functionality it does i would have set it to keypad and programmed in what I needed the AUX input to do. For your case best to leave it on load toggle.

And by doing it this way you’re not cutting power off to the puck and your feedback will work also so if the motion it triggered and the light is turned on you’ll see this inside control4 too

Thanks
M


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So good news and bad news. 
 

The good news is the switched live from the PIR into the AUX of the puck works perfectly so when the PIR triggers, the lights turn on via the puck. 
 

The bad news is if the lights are on from Control4 and the PIR triggers to also on it then turns the lights off. It’s almost as if the AUX is set to turn the lights to the opposite state. 
 

If lights are off and PIR is off = lights off

If lights are on (turned on from Control4) and then the PIR triggers to on, the lights go off. 

Is there a way to fix this in composer?

Thank you for the great advice by the way. 

[mujtaba.khokhar]

So good news and bad news. 
 
The good news is the switched live from the PIR into the AUX of the puck works perfectly so when the PIR triggers, the lights turn on via the puck. 
 
The bad news is if the lights are on from Control4 and the PIR triggers to also on it then turns the lights off. It’s almost as if the AUX is set to turn the lights to the opposite state. 
 
If lights are off and PIR is off = lights off
If lights are on (turned on from Control4) and then the PIR triggers to on, the lights go off. 
Is there a way to fix this in composer?
Thank you for the great advice by the way. 

Okay that’s good, I’m glad you got it sorted

By default aux 1 is set to toggle the load

You could try changing it to on only and see if that works

Let me know if you would like me to log on and do this for you

Thanks
M


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[J to the D]

1 hour ago, mujtaba.khokhar said:

Okay that’s good, I’m glad you got it sorted

By default aux 1 is set to toggle the load

You could try changing it to on only and see if that works

Let me know if you would like me to log on and do this for you

Thanks
M


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Unfortunately as it’s currently set up, the AUX input will not work. With the puck set to toggle the load through the AUX it provides huge limitations. 
 

The puck is almost treating the PIR feed like a pulse so when the PIR defects movement it toggles the power. This is fine if the lights are off but if you override through control4 it causes issues. For example if I turn the lights on via Control4 and the PIR detects movement the puck will toggle the load, turning the lights off... It then means when the PIR timer runs down it will toggle the load again which in this scenario would turn the lights back on again. They would not turn off until Control4 turned them off of the PIR detected motion. Defeats the object of a PIR if the lights turn off when motion is detected.  
 

I tried using the AUX as ON but then the lights never turn off from the PIR. I suppose I would need to put a timer in control4 to turn the lights off. 
 

Does any of this make sense?

[J to the D]

3 minutes ago, J to the D said:

Unfortunately as it’s currently set up, the AUX input will not work. With the puck set to toggle the load through the AUX it provides huge limitations. 
 

The puck is almost treating the PIR feed like a pulse so when the PIR defects movement it toggles the power. This is fine if the lights are off but if you override through control4 it causes issues. For example if I turn the lights on via Control4 and the PIR detects movement the puck will toggle the load, turning the lights off... It then means when the PIR timer runs down it will toggle the load again which in this scenario would turn the lights back on again. They would not turn off until Control4 turned them off of the PIR detected motion. Defeats the object of a PIR if the lights turn off when motion is detected.  
 

I tried using the AUX as ON but then the lights never turn off from the PIR. I suppose I would need to put a timer in control4 to turn the lights off. 
 

Does any of this make sense?

Come to think of it, a timer wouldn’t work either because if the PIR triggered it would turn the lights on starting a timer. If the lights went off before the PIR timer when the PIR triggered to off it sends another pulse to the aux which is set to always on, thus turning the lights back on. 
 

Very confusing. 

[mujtaba.khokhar]

Have you tired "Toggle (Latch)" mode too? if so read on.... 

I was just looking over the manual for the PIR again. 

Ideally you want the PIR to have full control over the light and then just use the puck to turn it on manually, Correct?

if this is the case:

Wire up the PIR like you're supposed to according to the manual. Then Wire up the puck as your indoor switch, this way you're not using the AUX terminals at all.

This would technically only work if you have the SWITCHED puck and not the Dimmable version. 

the C4 puck would then work as the manual override as stated in the manual 

Thanks 

M

 

[J to the D]

20 minutes ago, mujtaba.khokhar said:

Have you tired "Toggle (Latch)" mode too? if so read on.... 

I was just looking over the manual for the PIR again. 

Ideally you want the PIR to have full control over the light and then just use the puck to turn it on manually, Correct?

if this is the case:

Wire up the PIR like you're supposed to according to the manual. Then Wire up the puck as your indoor switch, this way you're not using the AUX terminals at all.

This would technically only work if you have the SWITCHED puck and not the Dimmable version. 

the C4 puck would then work as the manual override as stated in the manual 

Thanks 

M

 

The option you are suggesting is what I tried from the start but I think I may have a faulty PIR. When I connect the puck (switch and not dimmer) the same as the writing diagram you mention, when the puck overrides the lights the PIR is consuming some of the power which triggers the internal relay. This means that regardless of the ambient situation the PIR triggers and never turns off.  

Ill speak to the manufacturer tomorrow and see what they say. Hopefully it will be a simple fix/replacement of the PIR. 

Such a shame the AUX doesn’t work as that would have been great. The puck should read the AUX as a constant feed instead of pulse. That would be the issue fixed. 

Thanks for the help. 

[mujtaba.khokhar]

Just now, J to the D said:

The option you are suggesting is what I tied from the start but I think I may have a faulty PIR. When I connect the puck (switch and not dimmer) the same as the writing diagram you mention, when the puck overrides the lights the PIR is consuming some of the power which triggers the internal relay. This means that regardless of the ambient situation the PIR triggers and never turns off.  

Ill speak to the manufacturer tomorrow and see what they say. Hopefully it will be a simple fix/replacement of the PIR. 

Such a shame the AUX doesn’t work as that would have been great. The puck should read the AUX as a constant feed instead of pulse. That would be the issue fixed. 

Thanks for the help. 

Are you sure the PIR isnt being put in to manual override? in the PDF it states:

Activate manual override: Switch OFF and ON twice.

The light is set to manual override for 4 hours (status LED ON). Then it returns automatically to sensor mode (status LED OFF).

Deactivate manual override: Switch OFF and ON once.

Light goes out or switches to sensor operation.

Quote

The puck should read the AUX as a constant feed instead of pulse

You can do this by setting the AUX to "Toggle (Latch)"

Latch—A latching switch typically takes the form of a toggle or rocker button and opens or closes the circuit depending upon the position of the switch. When using a latching switch with the Puck Module, the Puck reacts to each transition of the switch from on-to-off or off-to on. It does not react to the actual on/off state of the switch. Each transition is treated as a “click.” Note: It is not possible to perform a press-and-hold with a latching switch.

ofc - this can all be avoided with a Zigbee PIR - but who doesn't like a challenge! lol

Thanks 

M

[J to the D]

5 minutes ago, mujtaba.khokhar said:

Are you sure the PIR isnt being put in to manual override? in the PDF it states:

I don’t believe so because as soon as I turn the power on and turn on the lights from the puck, I can hear the relay trigger in the PIR. 
 

8 minutes ago, mujtaba.khokhar said:

Each transition is treated as a “click.” Note: It is not possible to perform a press-and-hold with a latching switch.

This is the key, I don’t want each transition as a click I need it to be a press and hold  that would solve my problem.

 

[mujtaba.khokhar]

2 minutes ago, J to the D said:

I don’t believe so because as soon as I turn the power on and turn on the lights from the puck, I can hear the relay trigger in the PIR. 
 

This is the key, I don’t want each transition as a click I need it to be a press and hold  that would solve my problem.

 

Fair enough, like you said contact manufacturer see what they say. 

Hope you get this issue resolved.

Alternatively you could set AUX to on only and them program in some logic to get it working how you want. something like this: 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/sdchh2o5xucrkrv/Screenshot 2020-05-10 at 23.18.23.png?dl=0

You would then set the timer on the PIR to the lowest time you can, and the timer inside c4 for the time you want the load to be on --> when timer ends to turn the load off 

if you wanted to manually override the timer you can add in a variable too. Create a boolean variable call it manual override. 

you would then use this variable to trigger the light on and off manually from Control4

When the variable is true 

Light will turn on and timer will stop working 

when the variable is false 

Light will turn off and timer will work again. 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/zrcrb3xnerfxsmo/Screenshot 2020-05-10 at 23.33.47.png?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ethzxa8hw88h8gg/Screenshot 2020-05-10 at 23.33.57.png?dl=0

This is all off the top of my head not sure it will work but its worth a go. 

Thanks 

M

 

[blub]

Rule no 1:

Dont use Puck switches and dimmers, just use something else...

[J to the D]

On 5/18/2020 at 1:47 PM, blub said:

Rule no 1:

Dont use Puck switches and dimmers, just use something else...

Interesting comment. What is the “something else”?

[blub]

Interesting comment. What is the “something else”?

That depends on where you are located, Europe or NA?